Where have all the sensible leftists gone?

And by sensible, I mean M-L. I joined RevLeft this summer, and really appreciated having others who understand my view of communism, revolution, the fUSSR, etc. Now, it's like this whole site has gone bonkers. It's even gone further than the Trotskyists. Suddenly the USSR apparently was NEVER socialist, but was a bourgeois capitalist revolution and state from the get-go. WHAT? And suddenly there are all these left-of-left communists, and Luxembourgites and Kautskyites and post-Maoists and things I barely consider leftist. And then there are the Social Democrats in disguise, and people wanting to legislate every move people make, in a most liberal way. I know this isn't a very coherent post, but I know that I haven't been posting as much, since I hardly see any posts from anyone who makes sense. I thought of this when I was reading a thread of bullshit and then Ismail injected some intelligence into the conversation.

BTW...I'll gladly wear the label of Stalinist (which apparently is an insult hurled at everyone regardless of whether it makes sense or not).

Comradely (and frustratedly) yours,
-soso

Most of the outspoken Marxist-Leninists left out of frustration of the very things you've described. The rest of us tend to stay quiet because we're tired of arguing about the same things over and over. But if you want a place that's especially for MLs, me and some other members started our own forum.

http://marxistleninist.proboards.com/

Most of the outspoken Marxist-Leninists left out of frustration of the very things you've described. The rest of us tend to stay quiet because we're tired of arguing about the same things over and over. But if you want a place that's especially for MLs, me and some other members started our own forum.

http://marxistleninist.proboards.com/

Yeah, this. And to be honest, if people on revleft are not Marxist Leninists it is not surprising because the people are mostly very young and inexperienced leftists. Most Communists in the real world are Marxist Leninists and non sectarians.

There's waves of it. There was a time towards the end of the summer start of fall where there were tons of MLs/ML like people. Then by October there was a huge influx of council communist and anarcho-communists on the board. When I first joined last may there Trotskyites had the biggest voice. I'm sure in a few months there's going to be a few weeks where ML is all over again. We just have to stick together is all.

Yeah, this. And to be honest, if people on revleft are not Marxist Leninists it is not surprising because the people are mostly very young and inexperienced leftists. Most Communists in the real world are Marxist Leninists and non sectarians.

this, there used to be some good posters on real world communist movements which were always of the ML strain, but everyone of them gets trolled by the anarcho/leftcommie/trot kiddies with their wah wah wah totalitarianism/not real communism!

Just look at the threads on Greece, the KKE are the only relevant revolutionary force and their threads are full troll posts from the usual suspects.

It's so easy to sit in your comfortable student chairs and complain about how ML isn't real communism when your version of communism only exists in text books.

Yeah, this. And to be honest, if people on revleft are not Marxist Leninists it is not surprising because the people are mostly very young and inexperienced leftists. Most Communists in the real world are Marxist Leninists and non sectarians.

This is true. I'd also point out that a lot of non-M-Ls in the real world in many cases aren't as abrasive and sectarian also (as they are minority and have to cast their lot in with M-Ls in many struggles); that isn't to say there aren't any like that...sadly in the UK there is a Trotskyist-Mafia who tend to dominate everything and are very obnoxious (and I am not sure why Trotskyism too off so much in the UK and almost nowhere else but there you go). Of course there isn't as much of the Hoxha vs Mao M-L infighting, anymore, either.

If you mention the fact that M-Ls in real life (as in actually involved with the proper revolutionary struggles) are to the world as anarchists are to Revleft (aka by a fair stretch the biggest) you'd get a lot of flames out on the open boards... in many cases from Left-Comms who only exist on the internet.

This is true. I'd also point out that a lot of non-M-Ls in the real world in many cases aren't as abrasive and sectarian also (as they are minority and have to cast their lot in with M-Ls in many struggles); that isn't to say there aren't any like that...sadly in the UK there is a Trotskyist-Mafia who tend to dominate everything and are very obnoxious (and I am not sure why Trotskyism too off so much in the UK and almost nowhere else but there you go). Of course there isn't as much of the Hoxha vs Mao M-L infighting, anymore, either.

If you mention the fact that M-Ls in real life (as in actually involved with the proper revolutionary struggles) are to the world as anarchists are to Revleft (aka by a fair stretch the biggest) you'd get a lot of flames out on the open boards... in many cases from Left-Comms who only exist on the internet.

That's because ultra-leftists will say that Marxism-Leninism is bourgeois consciousness somehow. That was the response when Paul Cockshott pointed out that communist party membership was at its height during the Soviet Union's existence. People just said that the Soviet Union wasn't real communism so it didn't count.

I'd also point out that a lot of non-M-Ls in the real world in many cases aren't as abrasive and sectarian also ...

Online anonymity is a wonderful thing.

Thanks for all the replies...it is true that M-Ls not only exist in the real world, but have actually HAD revolutions and began building socialism. I choose not to join in on the "the one (revolution) that got away" what-ifs of the armchair socialist "theorists" who have never put anything into practice.

10 begin sarcasm

Because as soon as a revolution succeeds it ceases to be proletarian and becomes bourgeois, of course!

20 end sarcasm

SO glad we have this group so we don't get attacked for telling the truth about reality!

-soso

it is true that M-Ls not only exist in the real world, but have actually HAD revolutions and began building socialism.

The latter is probably the most "controversial" point amongst the non-M-Ls on this site. Just casually mention the fact on the open boards and you'll see what i mean.

What's funny about RevLeft's left-communists is their simultaneous denunciation of anti-revisionism as "dogmatic"/"turning Marxism into a religion" and the fact that they're the "Bordigist" branch of left-communism no less, which is particularly amusing since as one RevLefter pointed out to me years ago:

Guy: i've basically become utterly convinced that ultra-leftism is an ideological disease which unconsciously guides its victims to sabotage revolutionary movements and organizations from the inside
Guy: i genuinely believe this, it isn't an exaggeration
Guy: i mean
Guy: the subtext of all their thinking
Guy: is counterrevolutionary
Guy: for instance bordigism
Ismail: What the hell is Bordigism anyway
Ismail: It seems to be a weird mix of Trotskyism, Left-Communism, and Blanquism
Guy: basically
Guy: his vision
Guy: was
Ismail: To eat cupcakes according to his pictures
Guy: that the party needs to be a solid ideological core
Guy: which propagandizes from a fringe position
Guy: until the material conditions lead the masses to mobilize
Guy: at which point the party forms the core of the self-conscious vanguard
Guy: the key is
Guy: basically
Guy: they don't care if revolutions fail in the meantime
Guy: and see nor reason to work towards revolution
Guy: they are fatalists
Guy: they sometimes participate in economic struggles
Guy: but they don't believe its possible or desirable to mobilize the working class as a vanguard party
Guy: they believe the working class mobilizes itself
Guy: and the party's job is to keep the dying embers of the correct marxist thought alive
Ismail: Doesn't this basically mean that the actual Bordigist "party" is petty-bourgeois?
Guy: essentially, yes
Guy: if you look on the ICC's website they have a major thing like this
Guy: its called the continuity of marxism
Guy: its the core of their ideology
Guy: there is a golden thread going back from marx through the 2nd international and the ultra left
Guy: their job is to preserve that apostolic succession until the apocalypse
Guy: (revolution, self movement of the working class, an uprising that meets their strict criteria)
Ismail: So basically they're a lame semi-cult and are useless
Guy: yes
Guy: this is why left-communism is useless AT BEST
Guy: actually counterrevolutionary at worst

“Guy: basically
Guy: his vision
Guy: was
Ismail: To eat cupcakes according to his pictures”

Guy: basically
Guy: his vision
Guy: was
Ismail: To eat cupcakes according to his pictures

Definitely not a leftist sex-symbol. He makes some of the less attractive Bolsheviks look like (Thelma-and-Louise-era) Brad Pitt...

GAY M-L IN THE HIZZY!

(I'm very tired tonight...sorry...)

-soso

Of course there isn't as much of the Hoxha vs Mao M-L infighting, anymore, either.

It seems that an infighting is about to start again here. The instigator is the same person yet again:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/favorite-t...51#post2539351

I had said earlier that Maoists are never the ones to begin trouble, so Hoxhaists should not whine once we start retaliating to this bullshit.

It seems that an infighting is about to start again here. The instigator is the same person yet again:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/favorite-t...51#post2539351

I had said earlier that Maoists are never the ones to begin trouble, so Hoxhaists should not whine once we start retaliating to this bullshit.

Maybe you should for once actually respond to critiques instead of calling it “trouble” or denouncing it as “dogmato-revisionism”.

Maybe you should for once actually respond to critiques instead of calling it “trouble” or denouncing it as “dogmato-revisionism”.

We will reply to it the way we like. This was just to keep a record on who starts the trouble.

We will reply to it the way we like. This was just to keep a record on who starts the trouble.

Critique is not starting trouble.
People like you are scared to change or challenge their own views.
If it is wrong use facts and tell him why it is wrong instead of debouncing something as “trouble” or “wrong”.

Critique is not starting trouble.
People like you are scared to change or challenge their own views.
If it is wrong use facts and tell him why it is wrong instead of debouncing something as “trouble” or “wrong”.

I know only one fact, and that is, that Hoxhaists don't exist as a significant revolutionary force anywhere in the world. First fix that, then challenge others' views.

I know only one fact, and that is, that Hoxhaists don't exist as a significant revolutionary force anywhere in the world. First fix that, then challenge others' views.

If you are unable to use facts but instead use ad hominem attacks, you're not being taken seriously by anyone.
Use facts or fuck off wanker.
And since you didn't use any source on Hoxhaists being a significant revolutionary force it is not a source.

If you are unable to use facts but instead use ad hominem attacks, you're not being taken seriously by anyone.

I dont' care whether Hoxhaists or other Trotskyite tendencies take me seriously or not.

Use facts or fuck off wanker.

Funny coming from a tendency that can only puke Hoxha's diary when pressed for facts.

And since you didn't use any source on Hoxhaists being a significant revolutionary force it is not a source.

Okay, please enlighten me. Where in the world are Hoxhaists doing anything significant right now?

I dont' care whether Hoxhaists or other Trotskyite tendencies take me seriously or not.

Good luck with talking to actual Proletarians then.

Funny coming from a tendency that can only puke Hoxha's diary when pressed for facts.

Well for the Hoxhaists on this forum that is simply not true, but even worse is that you think tendencies by themseves does things,

Okay, please enlighten me. Where in the world are Hoxhaists doing anything significant right now?

We had this discussion before, you were unable to say anything that would even resemble the slightest for of a well thought argument.
Funny how you say Hoxhaists puke out the same everytime but you keep recycling the same shit arguments time and time again.
And since you just said you're not intrested in what others say anyways, I won't waste my time on you.

Also you blame Hoxhaists for starting trouble, there was no need to post that in this thread.
You didn't have to link to that post.
It seems that you're the one that is starting trouble.

Good luck with talking to actual Proletarians then.

A lot of my time goes in that. Thank you though.

Well for the Hoxhaists on this forum that is simply not true, but even worse is that you think tendencies by themseves does things,

Yeah that last thing might be true. All Hoxhaists might not be as rotten-assed as the few rabid anti-Maoist ones here.

We had this discussion before, you were unable to say anything that would even resemble the slightest for of a well thought argument.
Funny how you say Hoxhaists puke out the same everytime but you keep recycling the same shit arguments time and time again.
And since you just said you're not intrested in what others say anyways, I won't waste my time on you.

As far as I recall, you were only able to concoct a story of some secret trade-union or something like that. That doesn't count as a valid response.

Also you blame Hoxhaists for starting trouble, there was no need to post that in this thread.
You didn't have to link to that post.
It seems that you're the one that is starting trouble.

Most pathetic argument I've ever read.

I know plenty get fed up with all the same arguments over and over again and moved to a Marxist-Leninist forum to avoid a lot of the crap that goes on on revleft. I personally have been really busy with college work, so I haven't been able to be active very often.