Communisation and the Dictatorship of the Proletariat

  1. Savage
    In the thread Dictatorship of Proletariat myself and Robbo203 entered discussion on this subject. I think that it is an interesting topic and one that should be analyzed thoroughly when we speak of communisation. The argument put forth by Robbo203 is as follows:

    Like I said, I am not averse at all to talking about the idea of communistic type relationships, embodied in institutions, such as intentional communities or mutual aid projects, prefiguring in some sense a future communist society and developing within the shell of capitalist society. But you have to make a distinction between these prefigurative communistic type relationships and communism as a global society to replace capitalism as a global society. There is, as yourself agree, no third mode of production between capitalism and communism. In that sense the changeoveer from capitalism to communism at a systems level has to be - logically speaking - an instantaneous process. It cant be anything else. That doesnt mean you cannot have communistic type relationships taking hold within a still existing capitalist society - anymore than a person cannot be said to be dying while he/she is still alive.


    This all ties in with the the idea of the proletarian dictatorship which, to me, is an absurd construction and a dangerous one too from the point of view of the communist movement. Such an idea presupposes the continuation of capitalism and therefore of a proletarian government that will necessarily have to administer capitalism in the interests of capital and not wage labour since there is no other way to administer capitalism. Betrayal is thus structurally built into the very concept of the DOTP from the start.

    The rationale that is often advanced for the DOTP is that it "takes time" to implement a communist programme. But this as I said is based on a complete misunderstanding of what a communist revolution is really about. It is not about implementing some programme though, of course, there will be programmes to be implemented to technically adapt and modifiy existing capitalist institutions along communist lines. But that is something that happens inside a communist society, inside a society that has already undergone a communism revolution. It is not what the revolutiuon as such is about. Here we see the problem with drawing upon examples of capitalist revolutions to serve as a kind of template for a future communist revolution - where bourgeois revolutiuonaries would sollicit support on the basis of a set of promised reforms.

    The communist revolution via the democratic caputure of state power is predicated on something entirely different. It is not at all about electing a government to do something for and behalf of the workers. Rather it is a symbolic event signifying the readiness to switch over to a communist society . It is about how to coodirnate this switch in a way which is expliitly recognised by society as a whole and is thus vested with social legitimacy. And, as I say, by the very nature of things, this switch has logically to be an instantaneous one becuase there is nothing in betweeen capitalism and communism
    My main question to this position is how does the capture of political power by the proletariat in itself constitute their self-abolition as a class? And for the bourgeoisie, how does their expropriation instantly negate their class interest? I do not see how this instantaneous theory of communist revolution can assume that class is abolished once the proletariat seizes political power.
  2. robbo203
    robbo203
    Thanks to Savage I heard about this group. It sounds interesting - though we might have quite different ideas about what "communisation" entails

    Anyway by way of an introduction here's my pennysworth - my recent post to the DOTP thread. Cheers

    In the process of communisation, capitalism is continuously moving towards communism, but it is still capitalist, even in decay. To give you are fairly lame metaphor, a dying person is still alive. We are sort of going in circles here, I think this discussion would be best diverted to the Communisation Theory group where we could probably get something more substantial, here you could perhaps go into further detail of how capital, the global social relation, could possibly be overcome instantaneously.

    To go with your metaphor, I think it needs to be noted that the death of the person happens at a point in time. At one moment you are still alive; the next, dead. Dying is a process, yes, but the state of being alive and the state of being dead are qualitatively different

    Its the same with the communisation process you mention. Like I said, I am not averse at all to talking about the idea of communistic type relationships, embodied in institutions, such as intentional communities or mutual aid projects, prefiguring in some sense a future communist society and developing within the shell of capitalist society. But you have to make a distinction between these prefigurative communistic type relationships and communism as a global society to replace capitalism as a global society. There is, as yourself agree, no third mode of production between capitalism and communism. In that sense the changeoveer from capitalism to communism at a systems level has to be - logically speaking - an instantaneous process. It cant be anything else. That doesnt mean you cannot have communistic type relationships taking hold within a still existing capitalist society - anymore than a person cannot be said to be dying while he/she is still alive.


    This all ties in with the the idea of the proletarian dictatorship which, to me, is an absurd construction and a dangerous one too from the point of view of the communist movement. Such an idea presupposes the continuation of capitalism and therefore of a proletarian government that will necessarily have to administer capitalism in the interests of capital and not wage labour since there is no other way to administer capitalism. Betrayal is thus structurally built into the very concept of the DOTP from the start.

    The rationale that is often advanced for the DOTP is that it "takes time" to implement a communist programme. But this as I said is based on a complete misunderstanding of what a communist revolution is really about. It is not about implementing some programme though, of course, there will be programmes to be implemented to technically adapt and modifiy existing capitalist institutions along communist lines. But that is something that happens inside a communist society, inside a society that has already undergone a communism revolution. It is not what the revolutiuon as such is about. Here we see the problem with drawing upon examples of capitalist revolutions to serve as a kind of template for a future communist revolution - where bourgeois revolutiuonaries would sollicit support on the basis of a set of promised reforms.

    The communist revolution via the democratic caputure of state power is predicated on something entirely different. It is not at all about electing a government to do something for and behalf of the workers. Rather it is a symbolic event signifying the readiness to switch over to a communist society . It is about how to coodirnate this switch in a way which is expliitly recognised by society as a whole and is thus vested with social legitimacy. And, as I say, by the very nature of things, this switch has logically to be an instantaneous one becuase there is nothing in betweeen capitalism and communism

    A proletarian government will not have signified a communust revolutiuon has taken place, such a revolutuion will still have to take place if a future communist society is to be instituted. That is why it absoluely essential that state power should not be captured before a majority of workers understad and want communism - because, short of this, those who capture power allegedlly on behalf of the workers will betray and turn against those workers. This is a copper bottomed guarantee. History provides abundant examples where this happened. The point is that once youve got a majority who clearly want and understand communism there is simply no need to dither around with some so called transition period; you will have met the precondition required for the immediate introduction of a communist society

    Thanks for your invitation to join the Communisation Theory Group which I will take up. Whatever our differences I think is important to discuss these ideas
  3. Savage
    My main question to this position is how does the capture of political power by the proletariat in itself constitute their self-abolition as a class? And for the bourgeoisie, how does their expropriation instantly negate their class interest? I do not see how this instantaneous theory of communist revolution can assume that class is abolished once the proletariat seizes political power.
  4. Kadir Ateş
    Here's how I (very) roughly see it:

    - On one hand, yes, it is a dialectical build-up of where--as TC puts it--the proles go from defensive to offensive, to class war. This transition is communisation itself, and so long as it does not stop, i.e., an opportunistic party gets a hold of the process, or a trade union attempts redirect its course, etc., then it will continue until value production itself is no longer necessary. I think this is how I understand it at least, where quantitative build-up of events and demands becomes a qualitative break with capitalist social relations.

    But while it may appear instantaneous, it necessarily needs to be moving forward in oder to truly be "international". It isn't enough to simply have, say, the proles in London communise themselves without this in turn becoming a way to support those in countryside elsewhere, not necessarily in the UK.

    That in and of itself is a process which is not instantaneous, but requires "time" in the vulgar sense of the word.

    My main question to this position is how does the capture of political power by the proletariat in itself constitute their self-abolition as a class? And for the bourgeoisie, how does their expropriation instantly negate their class interest? I do not see how this instantaneous theory of communist revolution can assume that class is abolished once the proletariat seizes political power.
    Good point- I think we need a definition of the state then, something that goes beyond the usual "retainer of class interests". If we can answer that, then perhaps we can figure out how value then relates to the state. Thoughts?
  5. Savage
    http://libcom.org/library/karl-marx-state perhaps this is a good starting place for that?
  6. Savage
    From the article that I mentioned above, I think the section on the DOTP is very relevant to this discussion,

    Proletarian Dictatorship
    To understand Marx’s views on the transition to socialism, it is useful to go back to his 1844 “Critical Notes on the Article ‘The King of Prussia and Social Reform,’” where social emancipation is identified as the soul of the proletarian revolution. Marx writes, “All revolution-the overthrow of the existing ruling power and the dissolution of the old order-is a political act. But without revolution socialism cannot be made possible. It stands in need of this political act just as it stands in need of destruction and dissolution. But as soon as its organizing functions begin and its goal, its soul emerges, socialism throws its political mask aside.”22 Here we can see the emergence of a distinct conception of transition to socialism. This is developed somewhat as a distinct understanding of political power in Marx’s critique of Proudhon:
    The working class, in the course of its development, will substitute for the old civil society an association which will exclude classes and their antagonism, and there will be no more political power properly so-called, since political power is precisely the official expression of antagonism in civil society. . . . Do not say that social movement excludes political movement. There is never a political movement which is not at the same time social. It is only in an order of things in which there are no more classes and class antagonisms that social evolutions will cease to be political revolutions.23
    Here we see the development of the concept of proletarian political power (or “state power,” as Marx sometimes referred to it): it has a social soul unlike any previous form of political power, but this class power necessarily takes a political (state) form because during the process of transition to socialism the antagonisms of civil society have not yet been completely abolished. Later Marx would label this transitional phase the period of the dictatorship of the proletariat. This quite simply meant the political rule of the working class. This transitional period, as Marx conceived it, did not entail the existence of a transitional form of society intervening between, and distinct from, capitalism and communism. The transitional period is essentially a period of revolutionary change. “Between capitalist and communist society,” wrote Marx, “lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other.”24 The raison d’être of the proletarian state power is to bring the means of production into common ownership, to bring about the “expropriation of the expropriators,” as Marx described the aim of the Paris Commune.25
    A little-known text by Marx, his 1874 “Notes on Bakunin’s Book Statehood and Anarchy,” explains the concept of proletarian dictatorship more clearly than any other. In his book Bakunin ridicules Marx’s concept of the transitional state power of the proletarian dictatorship, and Marx critically responds in his “Notes.” Bakunin writes, “If there is a state, then there is domination and consequent slavery. A state without slavery, open or camouflaged, is inconceivable-that is why we are enemies of the state. What does it mean, ‘the proletariat raised to a governing class?’”26 Marx responds, “It means that the proletariat, instead of fighting in individual instances against the economically privileged classes, has gained sufficient strength and organisation to use general means of coercion in its struggle against them; but it can only make use of such economic means as abolish its own character as wage labourer and hence as a class; when its victory is complete, its rule too is therefore at an end, since its class character will have disappeared.”27 The claim that through revolution the proletariat will be “raised to a governing class” thus has nothing to do with creating a dictatorship of a political sect, but is rather a claim that the proletariat will use “general means of coercion” to undercut the bourgeoisie’s power (by abolishing the private ownership of the means of production, disbanding the standing army, and so forth). It is the entire proletariat that is to exercise this power. Bakunin asks, “Will all 40 million [German workers] be members of the government?”28 Marx responds, “Certainly! For the system starts with the self-government of the communities.”29 This statement is certainly striking, but there are other places in the text where Marx more subtly conveys his radical conception of proletarian democracy. When writing about proletarian power and the peasantry, Marx writes that “the proletariat . . . must, as the government, take the measures needed . . . “30, identifying the transitional government with the proletariat as a class. Another example: when quoting Bakunin’s critique, Marx inserts a revealing parenthetical comment: “The dilemma in the theory of the Marxists is easily resolved. By people’s government they (i.e. Bakunin) understand the government of the people by a small number of representatives chosen (elected) by the people.”31 Here Marx is very clearly implying that he does not understand “people’s government” or workers’ government, as the government of the people by a small number of representatives elected by the people. This is a rather clear indication that Marx is still faithful to his 1843 critique of bourgeois democracy.
    Clearly, this conception of “proletarian” government is distinct from the bourgeois state, or from any previous form of state power. As Marx makes clear in the above statements, he is referring to a proletarian “government” only in the sense that the working class uses general means of coercion to enforce its aims. Proletarian government is not used by Marx to mean that some elite group (assumedly the intellectuals, as Bakunin argued) would use general means of coercion over the whole proletariat, for that would rule out working class “self-government.” Rather, the proletariat as a whole would assert its class interests over an alien class (by abolishing private property, expropriating the capitalists and socializing the means of production, disbanding the standing army, etc.). For anarchists, who often define these terms somewhat differently, much of the confusion about Marx’s claim that the proletariat must wield political power seems to be based on Marx’s frequent use of the words “state” and “government.” But as we have seen, there is nothing anti-democratic about the meaning Marx attached to these words. Most anarchists, unlike Marx, define the state in terms of minority rule. It is easy for someone who uses this sort of definition to read Marx’s mention of a proletarian “state” and immediately associate it with oppression and detachment from effective popular control. The problem is that interpreting Marx in this way creates a number of contradictions in his writings that vanish when his basic theoretical framework is better understood.32
    Another example of Marx’s use of the idea of proletarian dictatorship comes in an essay on “Political Indifferentism” that criticizes both the Proudhonists and the Bakuninists. Marx recognizes that the workers must struggle against the bourgeois state, but also that a revolutionary form of state is needed before social classes as such disappear. Marx pretends to speak for his opponents:
    If in the political struggle against the bourgeois state the workers succeed only in extracting concessions, then they are guilty of compromise; and this is contrary to eternal principles. . . . If the political struggle of the working class assumes violent forms and if the workers replace the dictatorship of the bourgeois class with their own revolutionary dictatorship, then they are guilty of the terrible crime of lèse-principe; for, in order to satisfy their miserable profane daily needs and to crush the resistance of the bourgeois class, they, instead of laying down their arms and abolishing the state, give to the state a revolutionary and transitory form.33
    This passage illustrates fairly clearly that proletarian dictatorship is simply the political power of an armed working class. The essence of a “workers’ state,” for Marx, was workers’ power, not any particular leadership at the helm of the state.
    34
    Furthermore, as Hal Draper has pointed out, it is a mistake to assume that the word “dictatorship” in the phrase “dictatorship of the proletariat” is supposed to refer to dictatorial (as distinguished from democratic) policies or forms of government. In fact, it was not until the latter part of the 19th century and more definitively after the Russian revolution that the term “dictatorship” came to have a specifically anti-democratic connotation.35 The origin of the term is the Roman dictatura, which referred to an emergency management of power. After 1848, around the time that Marx began using the term, it became relatively common for journalists to bemoan the “dictatorship” or “despotism” of the people, which posed a threat to the status quo. In 1849, a Spanish politician even made a speech in parliament declaring: “It is a question of choosing between the dictatorship from below and the dictatorship from above: I choose the dictatorship from above, since it comes from a purer and loftier realm.”36 Revolutionaries had even used the word “dictatorship” before Marx to refer to a transition to socialism. Blanqui, for example, advocated an educative dictatorship of a small group of revolutionaries. Marx’s use of the word “dictatorship” in the phrase “dictatorship of the proletariat,” however, is original and deliberately distinct from Blanqui’s usage. Engels emphasizes this point in a passage on Blanqui: “From the fact that Blanqui conceives of every revolution as the coup de main of a small revolutionary minority, what follows of itself is the necessity of dictatorship after its success-the dictatorship, please note, not of the entire revolutionary class, the proletariat, but of the small number of those who made the coup de main and who themselves are organized beforehand under the dictatorship of one person or a few. One can see that Blanqui is a revolutionary of the previous generation.”37 It is clear that the Leninist model of a particular sect or political party exercising political power is much closer to the Blanquist conception of “dictatorship” than to Marx’s, and Engels explicitly criticized this conception of how political power should be exercised. It is also clear that Blanqui’s model of rule by a small group of revolutionaries shares more in common with popular fantasies about Marx than with Marx’s dictatorship of the whole proletarian class.