POA support?

  1. Q
    Q
    Some time back I questioned the support of the SPEW towards the Prison Officers Association. In my opinion, it was quite a blunder.

    But what do I see now?:
    Speakers include: [FONT=Verdana] Brian Caton - General Secretary, Prison Officers' Association (POA) [/FONT]
    What do others think of this stupid cheering of one of the most reactionary parts of the working class?
  2. Tower of Bebel
    Tower of Bebel
    Is he going to "make the case for socialism?"
  3. Q
    Q
  4. Tower of Bebel
    Tower of Bebel
    It's okay to support prison unions, police unions and soldier's unions critically. That is, we support them when they fight for better living conditions for all (or at least for conditions that would not harm the victims of capitalist oppression). But - in this case - I can't really tell if Brian Caton is going to "make the case for socialism". The interview is a bit vague.
  5. Crux
    Crux
    "If prison officers can't rehabilitate, all they can do is confine. That looks like what they really want us to do.

    When we send those prisoners back into society under those circumstances, they will rape, rob and murder again. If we can't attempt to rehabilitate them or tackle their mental health problems, drug or alcohol problems then we're wasting our time sending them to prison.

    We've said let's have an integrated system where prison officers and probation officers work together. Where non-custodial sentences deliver the same programmes as in the prisons but out in the community. But we can't do that with overcrowded prisons, filling them up with people who are mentally ill."

    Also why is Fred bergen allowed in here?
  6. Q
    Q
    "If prison officers can't rehabilitate, all they can do is confine. That looks like what they really want us to do.

    When we send those prisoners back into society under those circumstances, they will rape, rob and murder again. If we can't attempt to rehabilitate them or tackle their mental health problems, drug or alcohol problems then we're wasting our time sending them to prison.

    We've said let's have an integrated system where prison officers and probation officers work together. Where non-custodial sentences deliver the same programmes as in the prisons but out in the community. But we can't do that with overcrowded prisons, filling them up with people who are mentally ill."
    I responded to that here, no need to repeat.

    Also why is Fred bergen allowed in here?
    I'm not sure exactly. I guess it has to do with the "open door permissions" that allow anyone to become a member of the group, without authorization by the group owner first. Perhaps Fred joined the group, posted and then left again?
  7. RedDawn
    RedDawn
    "Why did you leave the Labour Party?

    I'm sick and tired of people saying that just because you're a prison officer you're right wing. I had three gold brooches for the amount of prison officers I have recruited to the Labour Party. I'm sad at having to leave the Labour Party but I couldn't stay in it with Jack Straw being politically dishonest to me.
    I have respect for some Labour politicians and I have lots of friends in the Labour Party. Lots of my executive are still members of the Labour Party.
    But being the general secretary of a union means you get face to face with people and you can ask questions that others can't. I asked questions and got waffle when I expected to be treated with respect and given honest answers.
    I left a meeting at our conference with Jack Straw and made a presentation to him of a decanter from the POA to say thank you for coming to the conference. I also gave him a book entitled The Right To Strike and I said: "I've got you a third gift. You can have my Labour Party card after being a Labour Party member for 40-odd years."
    I got a standing ovation.
    He asked me what I was going to do now politically. I said I'll join the workers' party.
    He did say that his father had been locked up for being a conscientious objector. I asked him what the founding fathers of the Labour Party would think of him now - fighting illegal wars and privatising prisons. I got a standing ovation for that as well."

    http://leftwingcriminologist.blogspo...ian-caton.html

    We support the liberation of all sections of the working-class. Simply because some sections are more backwards or arms of the state doesn't mean they should be flogged for trying to turn their eyes towards socialism.
  8. redsnapper
    redsnapper
    The POA oppose voting rights for prisoners, they oppose prisoners forming unions, they want their members to be able to use metal batons against working class children in YOI's meaning under 18's as at present they cannot be used against this age group. Caton supports all these measures, its no secret as a google search will confirm. Caton himself was in charge of a MUFTI riot squad during the Strangeways uprising in 1990 and stitched up a prisoner who got another 9 years as a result.
    The list is endless, again google. He and the POA are firmly on the Daily Mail wing of the criminal justice debate putting them way to the right of even liberal penal reform organisations. How a "socialist" let alone a revolutionary one managed to end up there really beggars belief!
    Surely voting and union rights are basic reformist demands aren't they? I've had a discussion on facebook with an SP full timer who supports the use of batons against working class children as well as opposing prisoners right to vote and join unions. Is this the "party line?' Unbeliveable! Its not even reformist, its reactionary.
  9. Crux
    Crux
    Well, it's worrysome at least. I think he oughtto publically distanmce himself, and of course adopt a new, position regarding his views on pirsoners right to compensation, which also includes POA memebers as it turns out. For one thing, in any case I do think this should be required of him,actually should have been required ofhim beforehe could join.
  10. redsnapper
    redsnapper
    I agree but SP are silent on this. Google Caton and POA and you will see that he is consistently on the wrong side of this debate. Its worrying that when I have discussed this with comrades every single one who speaks to me supports Caton and the POA all the way. Totally uncritically. If he and POA really were progressive then I wouldn't have a problem with him but the opposite is true and its being covered up for the sake of short term political gain. Its called opportunism.
  11. Q
    Q
    Could you perhaps make a comprehensive list of the reactionary/progressive stances and actions by Caton in his role as secretary of POA? That would be very helpful for us foreigners
  12. redsnapper
    redsnapper
  13. redsnapper
    redsnapper
    Post on indymedia from prisoners rights campaigner, can't get link to work so cut and paste:

    The thing is that Brian Caton is not a complete fool. So to the Socialist Party, RMT or anyone else he is speaking to about the POA's campaigns against privatisation and for better wages and conditions, he puts this in the framework of general attacks on the welfare state, support for his fellow workers etc. And I am sure he is sincere.

    But it is what he DOESN'T say in these arenas and says elsewhere that you have to look at. POA spokespeople everywhere (and Caton is not the worst - try googling Glyn Travis) oppose rights for prisoners (the majority of whom are not child molesters in case anyone wants to respond on those lines). The POA does not care about the working class men and women it has behind bars; indeed demonising them is good for its cause.

    So, for example, Caton doesn't mention that he was one of the riot squad screws at Strangeways who charged into the protesting prisoners and gave evidence in court putting someone away for a further 9 years. And while he could tell the RMT-organised ‘Conference to discuss the crisis in working-class political representation’ in January this year where he was a key speaker: ‘We want trade union and human rights and we won’t get them from this government. We want liberty, justice and peace. I want to see the shackles that currently tie us down broken', he's not so concerned about those who are genuinely shackled within the prison system.

    In a POA press release in December 2008 he and Colin Moses welcomed Jack Straw's statement in an interview with the Daily Mail that he would be trying to reduce prisoners' access to the law. Caton said 'The compensation culture amongst the mainstream prison population is constantly on the increase at an unbelievable cost to the taxpayer. I hope that Mr Straw takes a serious look at the way some law firms appear to exploit the Human Rights Act to gain compensation for prisoners using the Legal Aid Scheme. Justice has to be seen to be done and currently POA members and employees working in the criminal justice system are getting a raw deal.’

    Ironically, it is not only prisoners who sue for compensation. POA members regularly make claims on the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority and litigate over assaults, illness, stress and the distress of witnessing murders, suicides or riots. The union retains the services of a specialist solicitors’ firm for this express purpose. In 2006 over £1 million was paid to six Cardiff prison officers for trauma caused by finding the mutilated body of a prisoner murdered by his cell-mate, while prisoners who have witnessed suicides and murders rarely receive any counselling, let alone compensation for the trauma. The government has even capped the compensation payments to innocent prisoners released following the over-turning of wrongful convictions.

    Straw told the Mail he has ‘given instructions in the services I control to be much tougher on compensation claims, such as for injuries at work.’ The state will therefore be vigorously resisting compensation claims from prisoners AND prison officers, but rather than standing shoulder to shoulder with prisoners, Caton and the POA sided with Straw and attacked the prisoners. This total lack of basic solidarity is never challenged by the Socialist Party or the other left groups and trade unions who frequently invite Caton to speak on their platforms, where he champions workers’ rights and boasts of how the POA has stood up to the government’s ban on its right to strike.

    I could go on...
  14. redsnapper
    redsnapper
  15. Crux
    Crux
    Supporting extendable batons to protect staff in juvenile prisons of course is not the way to go, but at the same time it's certainly not the same as supporting violent abuse by prison personell.

    And I wouldn't assume out of hand that there isn't an abuse of the Human Right Act going on.

    In the other it is the managment attacking the POA for the conditions in Wormwood, when it would be more sure to assume that, while there certainly may be scum among the prison officiers, it's an institutional problem, too many prisoners crammed into the same prison, inadequate resources etc. Now I am not making any excuse for prisoner abuse or racism in the prisons, but the article's solution seem to suggest privatization would be the best way to go. It doesn't really get to the problem. It's shamefull that the POA has defended these people, though.
    In the observer article the prison chief does claim that the POA also had been instrumental in turning the prisons around. Catons answer in the article seems a bit too short and a bit too defensive though. Clearly there had been abuse going on.

    So, yes clearly a few answers from Caton is needed.
  16. electro_fan
    electro_fan
    the problem though, is that in any trade union you are going to get members of it with reactionary views and even senior bureaucrats etc, perhaps because they (misguidedly) think thats the way to secure their members jobs and partly because they have maybe worked in one organisation for to long. Im sure there are a few PCS reps and senior officials who support the way that the welfare and benefit reforms are being carried out. So yeah i agree that he needs to give a reply, and much of what goes on in prisons is absolutely disgraceful, but at the same time Im not sure we should be shunning people because they are prison officers or whatever, especially because this is one of the most militant trade unions in britain and has shown that it is willing to take illegal strike action. I also think that if prisons were better regulated, and probably with better conditions and employing more people on a better wage, then some of the brutality of prison officers would be reduced, and with a greater role of the trade union it would be able to kick such people out. Because part of the problem today in prisons is that there is unaccountability and so a few prison officers and also a few violent prisoners can get away with anything they want. I dont know enough about the whole issue really and Im sure there was a big debate in the CWI before allowing him to join (and ihe still a member? I dont know)
  17. Q
    Q
    I dont know enough about the whole issue really and Im sure there was a big debate in the CWI before allowing him to join (and ihe still a member? I dont know)
    I'm unaware of any debate on an international level about this. This was most likely dealt with on a national level within SPEW. I haven't heard from him for some time, so maybe he left again, I don't know either.
  18. Q
    Q
    After a short Google I found one article from November that mentions him:
    http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/10621

    TUSC is a coalition with a steering committee which includes, in a personal capacity, the RMT general secretary Bob Crow, and fellow executive member Craig Johnston; the assistant general secretary of the PCS civil servants' union, Chris Baugh, and the union's vice-president, John McInally; the vice-president of the National Union of Teachers, Nina Franklin; and the recently retired general secretary of the Prison Officers Association, Brian Caton. The Socialist Party and the Socialist Workers Party are also represented on the committee.
    That's it though, older stuff goes back to April/May.
  19. electro_fan
    electro_fan
    lol, who knows
  20. electro_fan
    electro_fan
    the first and last one dont mention him at all ? and yeah he is in tusc but it doesn't mention whether he's still an sp member? as it is not just the sp involved in tusc - the swp have been to some extent as well
  21. electro_fan
    electro_fan
    it says "the socialist party and the SWP are also represented" so that implies he may of left?