Juche

Dont have much time to write, will check up again later. Been awhile since I posted on here, spent a few months in a county jail for getting to wild a protest. Soooo....what do you kids think of Juche and Il-Sung. I already posted another thread about this awhile back but not in this group. I'm sure DPRK has been discussed but right now I'm interested in a discussion of specific ideological points and the examinination of it's general theory. I bring it up here because I beleive this to be a more hospitable environment for musings on the matter in the sense that Juche is considered to be a strain of thought emanating from the general wellspring of anti-revisionism, alongside Maoism, Hoxhaism ect. As we all know North Korea staunchly supported China during the Sino-Soviet split the elder Kim had this to say about the man of steel upon his death:Stalin has passed away. The ardent heart of the great leader of progressive mankind has ceased to beat. This sad news has spread over Korean territory like lightning, inflicting a bitter blow to the hearts of millions of people. Korean People's Army soldiers, workers, farmers, and students, as well as all residents of both South and North Korea, have heard the sad news with profound grief. The very being of Korea has seemed to bow down, and mothers who had apparently exhausted their tears in weeping for the children they had lost in the bombing of the [American] air bandits sobbed again."

The DPRK has it's problems, but I'm not sure if it could be described as revisionist.

The opportunists and socialist renegades distorted and defamed Marxism-Leninism and disgraced its authors. Modern revisionists emasculated the revolutionary principles of Marxism-Leninism to please the imperialists and thus distorted and corrupted the revolutionary ideology of the working class. The socialist renegades, claiming that the socialist ideal itself was wrong, denied the revolutionary idea of the working class outright. The idea that denies the working-class revolutionary idea cannot be anything but bourgeois ideology. The traitors claimed that they were carrying out "reform" and "restructuring" for "democracy" and "economic welfare", gainsaying the revolutionary idea of the working class. However, real life has clearly shown that their "theory" was nothing but a reactionary theory for destroying socialism and reviving capitalism.

Excerpt from "RESPECTING THE FORERUNNERS OF THE REVOLUTION IS A NOBLE MORAL OBLIGATION OF REVOLUTIONARIES" pages 13-16 Pyongyang, Korea 1996.

As for Juche in general, I'm not certain, but from what I understand, it is described as the independence of the working class, which obviously I support as a revolutionary who dislikes a society where the workers depend upon selling their labour power to a bourgeois class.

I always thought Juche is revisionist because its insistence on militarism, nationalism, and the falling back to the traditional ways of venerating leaders. But the piece quoted by Brad should also be mentioned. It would be opportunist to pounce on the mention of "Juche" instead of M-L in the constitution as "evidence" of revisionism, as this does not mean that they have rejected or denounced M-L, but they think they have improved or surpassed it.

Such an idea is not automatically revisionist, otherwise Maoism, Hoxhaism and, yes, M-L, would also be revisionist because they provided a new name and definition for their ideology...

And I also want to learn more about the work system, work floor management, etc. in the DPRK. Because even a cursory reading of Wikipedia reveals that if Cuba, the USSR, etc. qualify as socialist, then the DPRK also certainly does.

By the way, I don't know if there are any sports fans here. But the DPRK football (soccer) team look very likely to qualify for the 2010 World Cup! See: http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-hate-i...15#post1398415 (sorry about the distraction)

wouldn't that be simply wonderfull if they won?

I don't like Wikipedia, but as for militarism/nationalism:

I don't recall if militarism is a focus of Juche itself. "Songun policy" (translates roughly as "military first") is the relevant term here. It could be argued that Songun is just a reality for a nation as small as the DPRK that has U.S. troops and U.S.-allied troops at its border. It's regrettable that Socialist nations have been pushed into using newfound productive capabilities for military purposes by foreign aggressors.
It may also have something to do with considering the military a revolutionary class itself, or I may be mistaken.

With a debatable exception of South Korea, however, the DPRK has not used its military to carry out imperialist wars.

I'm not sure about the work system in the DPRK. Perhaps it would help if I re-read "On the Juche Idea".

If I can find it online again, I'll let you all know.

Juche does seem to incorporate some nationalism that inevitably resulted from the suppression of Korean culture by Japanese imperialists. Although I'm concerned about nationalism, Kim Il Sung's support for the national liberation of Palestinians and those who suffered under the Apartheid regime in South Africa at the time is certainly positive. They do support solidarity with other Socialist countries, but worry about dependence on them.

Juche, perhaps, has its positive and negative aspects.
I'll see if I can find anything about the DPRK's work system.

As for the possibility of qualifying for the 2010 world cup---I've heard about this. It would be interesting to watch.

wouldn't that be simply wonderfull if they won?

Yup. Unfortunately, they lost the game to South Korea today. But that's to be expected, really, South Korea has one of the strongest teams in Asia. In fact, the DPRK's semi-professional football doesn't compare to the big money interests of any of the other Asian countries. So for them to qualify is really something. They're in second place now, but still looking good. They still have tough games against Iran and Saudi Arabia ahead, though. But if they can upset the odds there, it will be great.

NK had a really tough string of bad luck in the 90's; their Leader of almost 50 years dies, all their main trade partners in Eastern Europe suddenly vanish, and get struck by a series of national disasters. They still haven't really fully recovered yet, but, it's amazing that they've pulled along this far. I wish them and Cuba would buddy up. How are Cuban-Korean relations?

They exist is the only thing I can tell you. There is a North Korean embassy in Havana. I remember the state press giving congratulations to Cuba's 50th birthday.

However I find North Korea, in comparison to Cuba, a shitty state with an awful taste in culture. Cuba is also much more open about their domestic policies and the people there are coming over more naturally then they do in the DPRK. Also, you are not appointed by a guide when visiting Cuba, which says a lot...

"A shitty state with an awful taste in culture"?
That's pretty damn inflammatory.

Granted, they haven't succeeded, but the American government has managed to launch several hundred assassination attempts on Castro, and Cuba is not divided in half.

I don't think that lashing out at Korean culture in general is fair at all.
Cuba is becoming somewhat more open now, and Raul Castro has spoken of repairing Cuba-U.S. relations...

Insulting the DPRK's people as coming over unnaturally and attacking Korean culture in general is uncalled for.

The DPRK has strong security out of necessity, so I don't have a problem with being assigned a guide.

Many people seek out guided tours when they visit a new place, anyway.

I have no problem with a guide coming to a new place actually i would love to have a guide for I may or may no0t barely know about the country. Plus Korean culture is fairly good and Korea has been opressed and coqunered by Imperialist nations. Mongolia,China,Japan, it was even a empire for a time. But the DPRK as a whole is pretty good. Thought Its sad to hear that they have a Revisionist rule. But still its a Socialist Revisionist state with a fair Ideal that supports the freedom of the proletarian.

I wish them and Cuba would buddy up. How are Cuban-Korean relations?

Good, but limited. If only because they're both small countries on the other side of the world. Here is an interesting thread: Fidel reflects on Korea



There is also a picture of Che Guevara visiting Pyongyang floating around somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up later, got to go to work now. Another interesting thing I just read: "Che Guevara visited Pyongyang around (1965) and told the press that North Korea was a model to which revolutionary Cuba should aspire. (1)"

http://www.bestcyrano.org/sGowansUnd...ingNoKorea.htm

So che visited the DPRK and the PRC. Where has Che not been?

"Thought Its sad to hear that they have a Revisionist rule". No offense, Polish Soviet, but did you not read my posts or Charming Man's post?

Sorry I didnt. But I reviewed and see I am wrong.

Here is the Che pic:

Good pic.

great pic, a true internationalist!

OneParty has a great polemic against Juche which pretty much echoes my opinion of the difference between Marxism-Leninism and Juche. The DPRK is the closest thing to a socialist state we have left but it's not all the way there, as he point out here:

http://www.oneparty.co.uk/index.html.../juchegaz.html

I thought the polemic that Lenin II posted was pretty good.

But on the difference between a capitalist state and a socialist state, I think revisionism is when a country is on the capitalist road, and that societies like Cuba, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Venezuela are ruled by a bourgeoisie and just because they have a "socialist" label doesn't mean they're any closer to socialism (which requires the smashing of the bourgeois state and the foundation of a new state). we wouldn't start calling the u.s. under obama "almost a socialist state" due to nationalization of some banks/corporations and some social welfare programs...

Cuba and North Korea?
As for Obama, unfortunately, some people would but yeah.
Someone explain to me how bailing out large private corporations makes one a Communist?

I thought the polemic that Lenin II posted was pretty good.

But on the difference between a capitalist state and a socialist state, I think revisionism is when a country is on the capitalist road, and that societies like Cuba, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Venezuela are ruled by a bourgeoisie and just because they have a "socialist" label doesn't mean they're any closer to socialism (which requires the smashing of the bourgeois state and the foundation of a new state).

In my opinion it is better to have a "low point" than no point at all. There are different kinds, different views and different trends within revisionism, some gross and some more subtle, some opportunist and some blatant. If we acknowledge there are different types, different trends and different angles within revisionism, then we must acknowledge that there are different degrees of it.

Someone explain to me how bailing out large private corporations makes one a Communist?

Probably has something to do with the "ownership of the means of production," and some naive people- or right-wingers- felt that because the government decided to step in rather than "let the markets correct themselves," hence the Communist label.

But to be honest, people who believe or say this have no idea what communism is. Point out to them the theory of the stages of development, class conflict and contradictions, and organizing through the unions and vanguard party, and they think you speak a foreign language.

Concerning Juche, I have my doubts about this ideology. There used to be access to the complete writings of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il online, but I lost the link. I think North Korea, like Cuba, is very progressive, but has made numerous mistakes in the past and could probably do better. Still, it's much better than Vietnam or China in terms of following ideology and economy and not betraying the working class for economic profit.