Books for a study group

  1. Random Precision
    Like I've said elsewhere, I think it would be a good idea to have a study group going on here, as sort of a mutual process of expanding our knowledge of DM and Marxism in general. Here are some books we could pore over:

    - Marx, A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy for an understanding of the dialectical nature of capitalism.
    - Engels, The Dialectics of Nature for an interesting look at how dialectics work in nature- I expect we'll have more than a few disagreements on this.
    - George Lukacs, History and Class Consciousness: Studies in Marxist Dialectics which pretty much rocks, but maybe we could start with just one essay from this, as it's pretty weighty.
    - John Rees, The Algebra of Revolution: The Dialectic and the Classical Marxist Tradition as a good learning text.

    All of these except the last are available online. Any other suggestions?
  2. OI OI OI
    Reason in Revolt
  3. Bilan
    Bilan
    I'd be interested in a study group if you're actually proposing to one.
  4. Random Precision
    I'd be interested in a study group if you're actually proposing to one.
    Yeah, we'll get something going soon here. Just need to get a couple more members.
  5. Yehuda Stern
    Yehuda Stern
    Reason in Revolt
    Hell no, and this goes for everyone - no books written by any particular group. We are obviously all very divided in our politics - I don't think there are two in this group from the same organization - and there's no need to add to that by everyone suggesting some book written by his group on dialectics.
  6. OI OI OI
    aren't we all agreed on dialectics

    I haven't read reason in Revolt but I heard it is very good.
  7. PRC-UTE
    PRC-UTE
    Hell no, and this goes for everyone - no books written by any particular group. We are obviously all very divided in our politics - I don't think there are two in this group from the same organization - and there's no need to add to that by everyone suggesting some book written by his group on dialectics.
    I have to agree, and Reason in Revolt contained a number of flaws. For example the author rejecting the theory of the Big Bang as idealist because he claimed it violated a principle of dialectics... which is essentially a completely backwards and reversed method of applying the materialist dialectic. We base our abstracted theories on the facts of real life, not the the other way around.

    George Lukacs, History and Class Consciousness: Studies in Marxist Dialectics which pretty much rocks, but maybe we could start with just one essay from this, as it's pretty weighty.
    This one sounds intriguing.
  8. Yehuda Stern
    Yehuda Stern
    For example the author rejecting the theory of the Big Bang as idealist because he claimed it violated a principle of dialectics... which is essentially a completely backwards and reversed method of applying the materialist dialectic.
    I agree, though I, for different reasons, think the theory is incorrect.

    aren't we all agreed on dialectics
    Like written above, no, and for that reason exactly I recommend we stick to neutral texts - Marx, Engels, Lenin. If we want to take examples and ideas from other writers, that's fine, but no one here who is a Stalinist should have to read Trotsky's writings on dialectics, and I should certainly not be forced to read Reason in Revolt (again) - both because I disagree with it and because, well, like others have said, it's kinda shit.
  9. Random Precision
    This one sounds intriguing.
    Yes. The first essay in the book, "What is Orthodox Marxism?" is all about the dialectical method as the core of Marxism. I don't think many would argue with reading Lukács either, since he was a pretty neutral figure, embracing Lenin while rejecting both Stalin and Trotsky. Maybe if no one objects we could read and discuss that one essay to start with, and then move on to something else.
  10. Yehuda Stern
    Yehuda Stern
    Uh, I guess, but why not start with Marx, Engels or Lenin? Better to begin with the basics before going on to read writers we don't know if we'd agree with.
  11. Random Precision
    Uh, I guess, but why not start with Marx, Engels or Lenin? Better to begin with the basics before going on to read writers we don't know if we'd agree with.
    We can do that as well. I'm just trying to think of options. What works would you propose?

    EDIT: I am recommending Lukács' essay because I think it does a very good job of explaining the dialectical method coherently, something that Marx or Engels unfortunately never got around to in one work that I am aware of. Therefore I would argue that it is a "basic" text. I think that as a group whose main purpose is education, we should be willing to read anything that might help us get a better understanding. Who knows, we might not agree with what Lenin says, or even Marx and Engels. Such is the purpose of education.

    For anyone interested in checking it out, here it is: http://www.marxists.org/archive/luka...y/orthodox.htm
  12. Yehuda Stern
    Yehuda Stern
    We can start with Dialectics of Nature, or with Anti-Duhring, which is full of dialectical materialism even though it deals with other subjects.
  13. Random Precision
    Right, so I'll wait two more days for suggestions, then we can have a poll and get started afterwards.
  14. Hiero
    Hiero
    I propose either two works.

    Engels Anti-Dühring, Chapters

    XII. Dialectics. Quantity and Quality

    and

    XIII. Dialectics. Negation of the Negation

    I disagree with Engels Dialectics of Nature. Or Marx on dialectics in political economy. Because this is applying dialectics to a specific situation.

    The two chapters that I have recomended are fairly easy and short, and first start with philosophical basis and are supplemented by simple scientific examples.

    The other option is Stalin's Dialectical and Historical Materialism

    Again this is another easier text on dialectics that is purely philosophical.

    These are the works that I started with and help me get an understanding of dialectical materialism. I am more pushing for the chapters from Anti-Duhring.

    And by the way I have no problem with reading non-sectarian works on dialectics, so I have no problem with reading Trotsky. As I would really recomend Stalin's work for a begining even before Engels, or in conjunction with Engels. Eventually I would like to look at Mao's stuff on dialectics, On Contradiction, which is great with looking at the specifics of what a contradiction is. Then moving on to Althusser's stuff in 'For Marx'.

    However I am not keen to read something "petty"* writing by such and such a sect with the intended goal of promoting that sect over another sect. I am more keen on doing the "masters"* of Dialectical Materialism.

    I have never read anything by Lucas, so I can't comment, I am neither for or against his stuff.

    *I do not use these terms in a hostile way. What I mean is party publications, for instance I wont recomend CPA material for discussion. I want to look at the original theoritical works.

    So my vote, chapters from anti-duhring.
  15. Random Precision
    Cool, thanks for that Hiero. Miles has recommended "An Introduction to the Logic of Marxism" by George Novack. It's true that he was the "house philosopher" of the American SWP for many years, but I don't think anyone would deny that he did his own theoretical work.
  16. PRC-UTE
    PRC-UTE
    will we have a poll soon?

    I think we could first read a text just on dialectics, then read a text that applies the dialectical method, and in doing so use both LZ's suggestions and the rest.

    anyone with practical experience in a party or organisation will tell you, you have to learn to adapt and find a conscensus.
  17. Random Precision
    Yes, I agree with PRC. I've added the poll- the three options are "What is Orthodox Marxism?", "Anti-Duhring" and "Introduction to the Logic of Marxism". The only problem I can think of for these is that the last one is not online, marxists.org had to remove it after Pathfinder threatened a lawsuit. Nice work, guys.

    EDIT: actually, Rosa has just reminded me of a place that it is online.
    http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill...ogic/index.htm

    Sorry for the confusion everyone.
  18. OI OI OI
    Voted :"What is Orthodox Marxism?" by Georg Lukacs

    I think anti-duhring is kind of heavy for start.


  19. Random Precision
    Bump... I think we should keep this open for one more day, then begin.