Republican socialist sources

Connolly books?

why are these irp sources stickied above other organisations' as they've got zero weight in the Irish working class movement?

Why are you being so petty?

why not?

Well the CPI adheres to the two stages theory as far as i know which would take them out of the republican socialist bracket. Also they support the GFA and they would get offended if you called them republican.

why are these irp sources stickied above other organisations' as they've got zero weight in the Irish working class movement?

The working class isn't all concentrated in Dublin you know. The IRSP are the biggest left organisation in Ireland with strong links within working class areas in ulster. I wouldnt amount that to "zero weight".

The working class isn't all concentrated in Dublin you know. The IRSP are the biggest left organisation in Ireland with strong links within working class areas in ulster. I wouldnt amount that to "zero weight".

Unfortunately, patrolling Belfast with toy guns is not the workers' movement.

Show me IRSP playing a key role in any united class movement of the Ulster working class.

Why are you being so petty?

I'm not. All over the web, irps are portrayed as an organisation that matters to the workers' movement. It needs to be exposed that they don't

[quote=rocktober17;1229233]

Unfortunately, patrolling Belfast with toy guns is not the workers' movement.

I never said it was.

Show me IRSP playing a key role in any united class movement of the Ulster working class.

Point taken, show me any organisation doing this in Ulster?

Point taken, show me any organisation doing this in Ulster?

The Socialist Party has played a key role in uniting working-class people on the issue of water charges. While I wouldn't call it a "mass" movement, it certainly does have alot of support amongst workers in both communities in the North.

Unfortunately, patrolling Belfast with toy guns is not the workers' movement.

An exception that proves the rule is more like.

Show me IRSP playing a key role in any united class movement of the Ulster working class.

I know irps active in the unions, the water charges campaign, campaigns for civil rights, active most days in both protestant and catholic areas in interface areas and drugs conselling, all the while spreading the socialist message. Teach Na Fáilte, the ex-pows association put on a massive carnival with the unions on May Day and campaigned against child labour.

And that's only in the north, and that's not including a lot of areas of struggle many lefties would ignore, like campaigning for the Irish language and prisoner support.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSAM9-hGRsM







RSYM May Day:

I'm not. All over the web, irps are portrayed as an organisation that matters to the workers' movement. It needs to be exposed that they don't

LOL

Isnt this just typical of those sectarian left organisations in Ireland to attack this "Ireland leftists" board with petty and sectarian accusations. Will they ever cease in trying to divide the Irish left to a point where they can take control of it?

What is it with these sectarian lefties that they take polar opinions when dealing with organisations they see as reactionary. Why are they not so forceful in there condemnation of the Orange menace in Ulster as they are against the IRSP?

Not to mention the North Belfast Cumann active in the housing committees which have a Sectarian housing policy.

We are also active in Sligo.
We campaigned against the Lisbon treaty.
And are also currently active for the Retention of Cancer Services in Sligo.

And also the Dublin Cummann are behind a new initiative for Disabled People and the lack of resources for them once they hit 18.

Isnt this just typical of those sectarian left organisations in Ireland to attack this "Ireland leftists" board with petty and sectarian accusations. Will they ever cease in trying to divide the Irish left to a point where they can take control of it?

What is it with these sectarian lefties that they take polar opinions when dealing with organisations they see as reactionary. Why are they not so forceful in there condemnation of the Orange menace in Ulster as they are against the IRSP?

Redflag32:

What is the Irish left?

A list of organisations which claim to subscribe to 'leftist' politics?

I'm of the opinion that no 'leftist' organisation can change society, that's a task left to the organised working class, which needs a political program for its emancipation, that's linked to its everyday concerns and engages with it's consciousness where it's at, and points the way forward to a socialist transformation of society. That's where I think the 'left' comes in. This conception olso happens to have been at the heart of Marxism and Bolshevism since their inception.

From this point of view, a 'leftist' organisation, whose program either misunderstands, or misrepresents the developing consciousness of the working class can play no real progressive role in the movement to transform society.

Contributions on a board of Irish leftists, IMO shouldn't be motivated by an overriding concern for the feelings of anyone who calls themselves a leftist, but by a desire to clarify and promote the correct conception of the tasks of 'leftists' today.

If an organisation's program has the aim of engaging with and raising the consciousness of the class, then I reckon it's a bad idea if you're based in Northern Ireland, to focus on campaigning against the PSNI as a 'British police force' etc as PRC - UTE posted That's because the consciousness of half (or thereabouts) of the Northern Irish working class, does not correspond with that demand. The experience of imperialism's divide and rule policy, in combination with that of the troubles, and of the sectarian republican paramilitaries, has led to the development of a consciousness among protestant workers, which regards nationalistic demands as contrary to the interests of their community.

I'm not saying it's correct. But remember that the consciousness of the working class is as it is, not as you would like it to be.

So the IRSP does not at the moment play the role of a revolutionary workers' party, and should be criticised for that.

Anyway, my original intervention into this thread was to ask why the IRSP had been afforder a stickied thread above other Irish 'leftist' groups. If the answer is because the moderator thinks that Irish leftism is embodied in 'Republican Socialism' (as I imagine) then he/she should think again.


Red Revolutionary,

I didn't say that the IRSP did nothing, just that they don't do much within the workers' movement, aren't/weren't visible on Irish Ferries, GAMA, water charges, the bin tax, anti-war movement.

Certainly not visible enough to be characterised as 'the biggest left organisation in Ireland' as someone did earlier!

Redflag32:

What is the Irish left?

A list of organisations which claim to subscribe to 'leftist' politics?

In the context i was using that term,yes.

I'm of the opinion that no 'leftist' organisation can change society, that's a task left to the organised working class, which needs a political program for its emancipation, that's linked to its everyday concerns and engages with it's consciousness where it's at, and points the way forward to a socialist transformation of society.

So the working class do not need a party but they need a programme, is that what your saying?

that's where I think the 'left' comes in. This conception olso happens to have been at the heart of Marxism and Bolshevism since their inception.

Didnt you just say this?

I'm of the opinion that no 'leftist' organisation can change society

So which is it, the masses either need a vanguard party or they dont?

From this point of view, a 'leftist' organisation, whose program either misunderstands, or misrepresents the developing consciousness of the working class can play no real progressive role in the movement to transform society.

Agreed

Contributions on a board of Irish leftists, IMO shouldn't be motivated by an overriding concern for the feelings of anyone who calls themselves a leftist, but by a desire to clarify and promote the correct conception of the tasks of 'leftists' today.

Im not concerned with peoples feelings. I was making a point about how sectarian some in the Irish left are towards there comrades in struggle.

If an organisation's program has the aim of engaging with and raising the consciousness of the class, then I reckon it's a bad idea if you're based in Northern Ireland, to focus on campaigning against the PSNI as a 'British police force' etc as PRC - UTE posted

But the consciousness of the people in the free state is at a level where they strongly support the Garda, that doesnt stop the same lefties who shun away from confronting imperialist policing in the 6 counties from engaging in campaigns to discredit the Garda. "remember that the consciousness of the working class is as it is, not as you would like it to be."

That's because the consciousness of half (or thereabouts) of the Northern Irish working class, does not correspond with that demand.

And do you think they are incorrect in there opinion? Do you not,as a socialist, think it is counter-revolutionary to support a police service which upholds the illegal occupation of a country? Leave aside its brutal murderous history for now, do you not agree that its against the principles of socialism to support a sectarian police force which upholds a sectarian state?

If you do agree with this sentiment then surely its your duty as an activist and supposedly a member of the political vanguard to state clearly why you object to this police force. Dodging the subject is being dis-honest to the protestant working class.

It was the line held up by Connolly and Costello that we must be totally honest about our opinions when dealing with ulster protestants and it is members of the IRSM who carry out this task every day from within these communities.

The experience of imperialism's divide and rule policy, in combination with that of the troubles, and of the sectarian republican paramilitaries, has led to the development of a consciousness among protestant workers, which regards nationalistic demands as contrary to the interests of their community.

Your seeing things in a very un-marxist way comrade. You are not looking at the history of Ulster sectarianism as a whole. You cant see past "the troubles". Unionism was around long before "the troubles" and its this ideology which you refer to when you say "a consciousness among protestant workers, which regards nationalistic demands as contrary to the interests of their community". "sectarian republican paramilitaries" did not give rise to unionism and if you think that by ignoring the border issue unionism will subside then you are thinking in a very narrow and bourgeois pattern. Unionism is lacking the basic democratic ideology which is fundamental for any socialist society, by ignoring this fact and trying to placate those who currently support this ideology you are strenghtening the very ideology which is an enemy of socialism.

So the IRSP does not at the moment play the role of a revolutionary workers' party, and should be criticised for that.

In your opinion, but many disagree. healthy criticisms are always welcomed though.

I didn't say that the IRSP did nothing, just that they don't do much within the workers' movement, aren't/weren't visible on Irish Ferries, GAMA, water charges, the bin tax, anti-war movement.

Certainly not visible enough to be characterised as 'the biggest left organisation in Ireland' as someone did earlier!

Now your just moving the goal posts to suit your agenda.
Yes these are all issues which affect the working class but so are Housing issues, removal of Cancer serivces and greater support for the physically impaired. Which other "leftist" organisations are actively campaigning for these issues? From what I can see just the IRSP?

Well then which "leftist" organisation would you characterise as the biggest in Ireland?