Debating left communists

  1. Orcris
    Orcris
    What are some strategies for debating with left communists? They will usually irrationally argue that the USSR/PRC/GDR/Vietnam/Cuba/etc were all state capitalist. They seem to have a very strict and somewhat utopian definition of socialism: a country where the means of production are directly controlled by the workers. It seems like Anarchist Catalonia, the Bavarian Soviet Republic, and the Paris Commune are the only places that have existed that left communists will acknowledge had socialism.

    I generally try to bring up the fact that that the economies of ML states never functioned like capitalist economies: there was no boom/bust cycle, there was very little to no unemployment, there were no people starving because they couldn't make enough money to afford basic necessities. Left communists will always ignore this and bring up the fact that ML countries didn't have workers' self management.

    They will also bring up criticisms of democratic centralism and socialism in one country, but these are easier to debunk. In a multiparty democracy, people vote on party lines. No matter what position the candidate holds, most people will almost always vote for the same person. I would personally prefer to not have any parties listed on ballots, like what Cuba does, but democratic centralism is still better than multiparty democracy. For socialism in one country, well, the Revolution needs to establish a stronghold before it can spread. People who support SIOC don't think that there should only be one socialist country. They think that it is unrealistic to expect the whole world to turn communist at once, so permanent revolution would never work.

    What are other arguments that can be used when debating with left communists?
  2. Ismail
    Ismail
    There is actually a Bordiga quote where he points out that "workers' self-management" does not actually mean socialism. A RevLeft user used to have it in his sig.

    "Left-communism" is irrelevant as a political force anywhere on earth, and has been for about 80 years now, so there's little need to address them in terms of theory. A lot of them on RevLeft know barely anything about Marxism, although they like to pretend they do.

    In the end they're only relevant when they're attacking the Bolsheviks and the work of Lenin and Stalin, hence their attacks on democratic centralism, the construction of socialism in one country, etc.
  3. DDR
    DDR
    Why bother? I mean, I have never met a lef-com, nor I have seen any lef-com party or propaganda IRL. They are irrelevant in real political practice in the real world, they only make noise here, so really why bother?
  4. boiler
    boiler
    I think left communism is pretty much irrelevant now a days. To me there does not seem to be much of a difference between left communism and anarchism. The main difference there are actual anarchists groups and movements around. Iv never came across a left communist in my life before I came onto revleft, and Iv never heard of left communism, except in Lenins "Left communism infantile disorder". It seems to me the only place left communism exists is here on revleft.
  5. Sea
    Sea
    I love how whoever wrote the MIA header on the Left-Communist part of their library had to go out of their way to make sure the reader knows that "[t]hese were Marxists, not Anarchists".

    That should tell you a thing or two at least.
  6. Ismail
    Ismail
    For the past few decades Left-Coms have claimed they are part of a "proletarian milieu" with Anarchists, both in opposition to Leninists.
  7. La Guaneña
    La Guaneña
    Just tell them that "contra el imperialismo, marxismo-leninismo"
  8. renalenin
    renalenin
    Interesting thread. Here in Australia some excellent comrades were recently accused of being Left-Coms by people who want to have a unity ticket with greens, trots, and social dems, under a capitalist constitution. These outright anti-Marxists of the CPA call the Leninists 'infantile' and even misquote Lenin's excellent Infantile Disorder! The result - resignations and expulsions from the CPA. Interesting times down under.
  9. Stalin Baratheon
    Stalin Baratheon
    Opportunists accusing communists of "ultra-leftism" is a common place, even when Lenin never would have supported them in life.
  10. RedHal
    RedHal
    you're wasting your time debating leftcoms, their whole existence is to sit on the sidelines and criticize actual left movements, and not to build an actual movement that threatens the existing system. That's why the internet is infested with them. You're not gonna change their minds, ffs the Bordigists called themselves the Intansigent Faction lol
  11. renalenin
    renalenin
    Opportunists accusing communists of "ultra-leftism" is a common place, even when Lenin never would have supported them in life.
    This is so true. Some opportunists even seem to go with left sectarian issues to avoid being together with the communists on class war and related agitations!
  12. Comrade Jacob
    They're beyond useless and have always been.