No party for old men

  1. Tower of Bebel
    Tower of Bebel
    To outsiders it might seem strange that I post this question in this group. (Just look at the pictures.) But while I was doing a little research on the question of militarism in pre-war social democracy, I came to realize that the marxist wing of the SPD was too dependent on old men. Liebknecht, Bebel and in a certain sense Kautsky too, all of them waged a life-long struggle with both "leftist" and rightist impatience".

    But I also realized that there's some truth in the idea that these men, once they were old and... well.. dying, they were not in a condition to see things as clear as they used to. We know from Kautsky, Bebel and Luxemburg that Liebknecht became a bit of an embarrassment during the last years of his life, which explains why in the last decade of his life he focused on building the International rather than the SPD.

    I'm of the opinion that, because of its restrictions on the use of welfare and other benifits, and because employers don't like Bolsheviks among their workers, capitalism forces the left to keep old men in leading positions. Small parties that don't have the means to provide for the elder themselves, cannot but keep their founders on payed leading positions... until they die. Without such work, without decent pension rights (because some of them never "worked"), they become helpless. Ted Grant comes to mind (forgive me if I'm wrong).

    So what do you think? What should be done about it (if anything)?


    I have nothing against old men, and experience should be highly valued. But we are both marxist feminists and proponents of democracy (and demarchy), which would suggest that the higher regions of the party should not only be "open" to young (and female) leaders but should in theory be liable to domination by young leaders. I thought that the whole alternative culture thing, with its co-ops, could be a great help. But that obviously isn't the definite answer.
  2. Brutus
    Brutus
    One of the higher members of the party challenges the leader in an unarmed fight to the death- this will make sure that we're not reliant on old men.
  3. Die Neue Zeit
    Die Neue Zeit
    Comrade, why hasn't this happened to SYRIZA? It has a mid-aged leadership, not just President Tsipras.

    Look, I am of the "ageist" opinion that the best age demographic for Marxist Center (and I mean us revivalist comrades in general, not the website) leadership candidates is mid-age comrades, neither the senile elders on the one hand nor the Student Left teenagers on the other. Comrades between their very late 20s up to their mid- or even late 30s are ideal.

    I guess there are limits on how you should define "young leaders," because I wouldn't trust a group of people who have just hit 20 years old to be in responsible leadership positions.
  4. bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    I think saying that mid-age comrades are ideal is problematic. Since we are striving for a class-movement we must see that the class is not limited to "mid-age comrades" but also contains elders and younger people. Perhaps it is better for the younger people to gain experience in for example a youth/student-section of a party, but I think we by no means should exclude them. Ideally there should be some sort of proportional representation of what groups and ages the party exists of in the leadership.
    However I think this too much implies a party where the leaders rule instead of a democratic party where the members are making the decisions, this is not to say a party should not have leaders however the leaders should not be the party.
  5. Die Neue Zeit
    Die Neue Zeit
    In this case, Judas, I think the party-movement is better served if the age demographic is reflective of the broader class as a whole. Under your proposal, too many young kids in the grassroots will mean too many potential Student Leftists at the top, and of course too many pensioners in the grassroots will mean too many geriatrics at the top.
  6. Q
    Q
    Interesting note that I originally got from comrade Pat Byrne: Many of the sects on the left have the opposite demographic. That is, they have an old encrusted layer at the top, which ensures conservatism of the "line", and an over-activist youth that ensures that the "line" is carried out. If you look at the age group 30 to 45, you often see a big gap.

    It has often been suggested that this age gap is caused by a meltdown of the far left in the 1990's and early 2000's. But another explanation would be that the "party of activists" is unattractive to those that have a fulltime job, a mortgage and a family to feed...
  7. bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    In this case, Judas, I think the party-movement is better served if the age demographic is reflective of the broader class as a whole. Under your proposal, too many young kids in the grassroots will mean too many potential Student Leftists at the top, and of course too many pensioners in the grassroots will mean too many geriatrics at the top.
    If the party-movement is a class-movement this would be the case with proportional representation anyways, so I do not see your point.
    I like to think this leadership is more based on skill than on age.
  8. Noa Rodman
    Noa Rodman
    I'm guessing Kautsky's books sold well (with this Parvus sneers back at him in Die Glocke) enough for him not to have to rely on party funds.
  9. Tower of Bebel
    Tower of Bebel
    The SPD might have been an example of the extreme. The Bolsheviks, I think, had a rather young leadership. An example is Bukharin. Lenin and most certainly Trotsky (in 1917) were mid-age.
  10. Die Neue Zeit
    Die Neue Zeit
    It has often been suggested that this age gap is caused by a meltdown of the far left in the 1990's and early 2000's. But another explanation would be that the "party of activists" is unattractive to those that have a fulltime job, a mortgage and a family to feed...
    Yes, but the later 2000s is more attributed to the "party of [hyper-]activists." We need more "propagandism," more "passive" participation, etc. SYRIZA, Die Linke, etc. are good because they appeal to the mid-age demographic. It is the mid-age demographic that is the most reliable one for defining an individual's own class status. I hope Left Unity shares my "ageist" views in its organizational structure.
  11. The Idler
    The Idler
    It is true that most parties significantly lack 30 to 45 year-olds.
  12. Geiseric
    Geiseric
    Whose this internet person calling Leibchnacht a joke? What has anybody here seriously done to validate anything being said?
  13. Brutus
    Brutus
    Err, not Internet persons, but Bebel and Luxemburg. It's evidenced by the fact that he turned his efforts away from the party and towards international affairs.
    Also, it's spelt 'Liebknecht'.
  14. bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    bad ideas actualised by alcohol
    Whose this internet person calling Leibchnacht a joke? What has anybody here seriously done to validate anything being said?
    Ok?