Left-com anti-unionism vs. Lassallean anti-unionism?

  1. Die Neue Zeit
    Die Neue Zeit
    Much has already been said on this board regarding left-com anti-unionism, unions somehow being "tied" to the capitalist state, "smash the unions" rhetoric, and all that. One can use the Search function for posts on this, or peak into the Left Communist usergroup.

    However, lesser known is the anti-unionism of early organizers in the German worker-class movement. The most notable was that of Ferdinand Lassalle, who tried to justify this with shoddy economics: the Iron Law of Wages. The basic sticking point was that unions' mandates were to fight for the immediate economic interests of the most politically reactionary worker and of the most radicalized worker.

    As such, there was very little room for politics. It could even be said by the most politically reactionary worker that a single dollar of "Big Union" money donated to the more left-leaning mainstream party means one less dollar spent on organizing "business" or militant campaigns by said worker's union.

    As this preceded DeLeon's Socialist Industrial Unionism, one has to compare unionism in Lassalle's day to unionism (including watered-down, no-strike syndicalism) today. Who's got the better point: the left-coms, or the Lassalleans?
  2. Tower of Bebel
    Tower of Bebel
    I don't think it is possible to compare both types of trade unions. Early 19th century unions looked more like guilds than modern unions. Hence the name "trade"-union. Many early unions were even unions of workers and their bosses (as promoted by the catholic church). As such they too suffered from liberal laissez-faire "politicis" and "economics".
  3. Geiseric
    Geiseric
    Laselle is wrong in his point about serving the "reactionary" workers and "radical" ones. How do you expect reactionaries to warm up to class warfare if they don't see the benefit? This is where the United Front comes in handy.
  4. Die Neue Zeit
    Die Neue Zeit
    Broody, that was Lassalle's observation, not his political conclusion. That's the nature of unions today.
  5. Geiseric
    Geiseric
    Well yeah. My dad qualifies as a "reactionary" union member. Doesn't mean I don't care if he goes on strike, that's the whole point, we'd still support his union because the alt. would affect the entire working class in a bad way.

    But unions shoulnt give money to the liberals, they haven't helped at all, i'd agree with that. The idea of a workers party though is that it has to include people at the begining who may not want to focus on "ending capitalism"; as the left coms like to phrase. That's not a bad thing, it means people are realistic as to what the consciousness is at, and realize that revolution would be a pipe dream without a polished, oiled, working class party.
  6. Die Neue Zeit
    Die Neue Zeit
    That sounds good, except that Lassalle was against the idea of a party based on trade unions. He was a continental socialist, not a labourite.
  7. Noa Rodman
    Noa Rodman
    I thought Pannekoek et al. were proponents of the AAUD, closer to anarcho-syndicalism (like the IWW). I think only the ICC rejected even that kind of unionism (it's really only ICC). On the other hand among Russian leftcoms, in 1922 at Genoa the decist Sapronov (representing Russian syndicalism) fully took it as a necessity to work in yellow trade-unions (however astonishingly perhaps this may seem to us today, although I think also the Italian leftcom tradition was by and large for union work): http://bataillesocialiste.wordpress....sapronov-1922/

    The critique of how unions are integrated to the state or bourgeoisie is I think a broad position among communists (and it's unclear what the distinct conclusion the ICC draws from this amounts to in practice).
  8. Die Neue Zeit
    Die Neue Zeit
    A Lassalle-inspired "final solution" to this integration problem, comrade, is this (from my work which you have): Private-Sector Collective Bargaining Representation as a Free Legal Service [Monopoly]
  9. Geiseric
    Geiseric
    Isn't it more important that MArxists shouldn't be trying to mould the proletarian movement? And that we need to support the working class regardless of what kind of union they're in?
  10. Noa Rodman
    Noa Rodman
    Macnair has tried to counter such 'tailist' conclusions from that phrase as misinterpretation. This is a critique of the Manifesto http://www.ruthlesscriticism.com/CommunistManifesto.htm
  11. Die Neue Zeit
    Die Neue Zeit
    Noa, yes and no. That site doesn't mention the more fundamental parts of the Manifesto regarding "class for itself" and political party-movements (being identical). It doesn't mention the three goals of a Proletarian/Proletocratic-Not-Necessarily-Communist (PNNC) party-movement, especially how they separate such organization from labourite and other reformist organizations.

    Isn't it more important that MArxists shouldn't be trying to mould the proletarian movement? And that we need to support the working class regardless of what kind of union they're in?
    Most workers aren't in a f****** union in the first place! My solution isn't a "socialist measure," by the way, but

    a) It's an attempt at policy-making pressure
    b) It underscores fundamental problems with collective bargaining representation (that the "collaborationist" reps are really mediators)
  12. Geiseric
    Geiseric
    Macnair has tried to counter such 'tailist' conclusions from that phrase as misinterpretation. This is a critique of the Manifesto http://www.ruthlesscriticism.com/CommunistManifesto.htm
    Lol some dude wrote a critique of the communist manifesto? Like I care.

    DNZ i'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying. If you could relay that one more time in lamens terms i'd appreciate it.
  13. Q
    Q
    Lol some dude wrote a critique of the communist manifesto? Like I care.
    So, you're thinking that sticking to a, possibly wrong, interpretation of the Communist Manifesto makes you into a real Marxist? Lol, see how we care about your dogmatism.
  14. Die Neue Zeit
    Die Neue Zeit
    DNZ i'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying. If you could relay that one more time in lamens terms i'd appreciate it.
    What is it about what I'm saying that puzzles you? I'm referring to two topics here: party organization and the collective bargaining function.
  15. Noa Rodman
    Noa Rodman
    On the contrary DNZ, they ruthlessly critique economism:
    The authors of the Communist Manifesto know quite well that the workers must overcome their competitive point of view against each other in order to organize something against the bourgeoisie. It is well known to them that the wage-laborers are forced by capital into conditions in which they stand against each other for their vital interests. They do not even make anything of their previous point that this necessity “continually upsets” the “organization” of the wage-laborers “as a class.” The reason for it – evidently, the workers fighting for wages relate to the living conditions forced on them in such a way that they see their lives as being in the service of capital – however, they do not want to notice this; and the announcement of a few good reasons as to why the proletarians should repeal their competition against each other and decide to unite together in a front against capital seems completely dispensable to them in their Communist Manifesto. Instead, the authors spread the consoling assurance that the bourgeoisie drives the workers again and again, on a much higher scale, into a revolutionary combination. They take the liberty of seeing in wage conflicts, not the periodic interruption of competition, but a consistent line by the fighting revolutionary class that is interrupted only sporadically by relapses into competition. The program, which the addressed proletarians would have to see and put into practice, becomes in the light of this interpretation a process of development that is automatically ensured by the machinations of the bourgeoisie: [...]
    The whole text (and the entire website of Ruthless criticism) is excellent to read.

    just another passage;

    If this is how the society, the class struggle and the proletariat now stands: then what do the communists want? The answer of the Communist Manifesto is peculiar: first of all, they allegedly want nothing different than all the other workers' parties! If that were really the case, then they would not need their own party. How necessary they find this, however, and why their agreement in principle with the rest of the labor movement does not go very far, Marx and Engels emphatically clarify when they criticize the leading thinkers of the other socialist movements, more or less widespread at that time, in the 3rd chapter of the Communist Manifesto.
    The second assurance is still dubious:
    “They [the communists] have no interests separate and apart from those of the proletariat as a whole. They do not set up any sectarian principles of their own, by which to shape and mold the proletarian movement.”
    Here the leading theoreticians of communism write a Communist Manifesto, meaning that they have something to communicate to the workers which they should take good head of, and deny at first every real difference between themselves and the addressed masses. They want only one difference to pertain: that communists “always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole” and actually have the advantage of “clearly understanding the lines of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement” ahead of the rest of the team. Which is it: one fights more or less without ideas, the other knows where it is headed in the long run – but the main thing is that one does not differ in principle?! If communists are not needed to represent the “interest of the whole movement”, then there can hardly be talk of a “whole movement” and their “interest” does not exist at all – except in the heads of the communists: as their program which they intend to make accessible to the workers. In the meantime, what exists on the side of the fighting workers are evidently only individual interests, which proves that there is still no revolutionary “movement as a whole.” With their construction of an overarching general interest, over which the communists watch as “practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties,” Marx and Engels also admit, on the one hand, that the labor disputes of that time defended quite different interests than a proletarian revolution in their sense. On the other hand, they deny exactly this difference between their point of view and the goals for which the workers fight when they argue “simply” for the improvement of their conditions as wage laborers. They broadmindedly ignore the competitive point of view of the wage-laborers that they find in the struggles for individual interests and easily state that these act as parts of the big battle for the whole. If they state that only the communists “clearly understand the lines of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement,” then it is probably correct that the rest of the team pursues other objectives than the communist revolutionaries. With their doubtful praise of the fighting workers – who have, certainly, no idea, but somehow are already on the right track – they assume a conflict between their program and the will and consciousness of the proletariat, and explain it at the same time as insignificant.
    In the 4th chapter of the Communist Manifesto, which gives in detail the “relations of the communists to the various opposition parties” in various countries, the authors sum up this mistake, one more time, as follows:
    “In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things. In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time.”
    If one must constantly emphasize the “property question” because it is evidently more or less “undeveloped” in the various opposition movements, then one should better note immediately that these movements are concerned with other “basic questions” than the abolition of private property. Then, however, it is also nonsensical to act as if communists only have to remind all members of the opposition all the time, all the same, what they fight for, and only of the fact that for them too, nevertheless – ultimately – it is also about the property question.
    How do communists arrive at such well-meaning self-denial? Obviously, at that time Marx and Engels noticed a lot of working class struggles whose immediate aims they did not share, but which they also did not want to criticize. Instead, they welcomed them under the abstraction “class struggle” and presented to the proletariat the reassuring offer that the communists always keep the correct overview about where the fighting proletariat must go and wants to go. Instead of agitation and criticism, they shifted to a kind of public relations: communists trust that the proletariat is on the right track completely by itself already – vice versa, the proletariat can rely on the communists as a “signpost.” Altogether, this denial of the difference between communists and proles is a hypocrisy – and with just such a sucking up to the addressees, who they still concede have no notion of the aims of the revolution, the authors of the Communist Manifesto believe they can inspire the workers to a revolution!
  16. Die Neue Zeit
    Die Neue Zeit
    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I still don't see the three goals of actual worker-class parties discussed in the commentary.
  17. Tower of Bebel
    Tower of Bebel
    I think that what this critique of the Manifesto and the OP on Lassalle's attitude are concerned the so called merger formula was still a subjet of debate. Marx and Engels supported the merger, but still had to figure out how it would come about. That might have been one of the reasons why it took Marx so long to write the Manifesto. Eventually they left the Manifesto for what it was. And while it was gathering dust, Marx changed some of his views while building the International but soon had to shift his attetion towards a critique of capital; while Engels would later develop his ideas on the merger formula in the process of building towards a German social democracy. The Communist Manifesto and its supporters can be seen as the direct - but not absolute - opponent of Lassalle's position on the workers' movement, yet Lassalle added (in practice) a new element to the debate - one which Marx had only envisaged in theory - one that became known as the workers' political party. The debate between the two only settled when Lassalle died and German social democracy (e)merged - superseded the old - under the leadership of a new generation of leaders. That's how I see things in a nutshell.

    In addition, while reading on the first German workers' associations, it has to be said that German workers not only organised around their immediate (economic) interests. The first German workers' associations were self-help clubs, mostly for men, around general interests such as politics. I guess many (economic) workers' unions at the time were, in the eyes of Lassalle and young Bebel also, concidered too narrow-minded and too small (for politics).
  18. Die Neue Zeit
    Die Neue Zeit
    Comrade, I just don't see collective bargaining representation as a fulfilling role for modern private-sector unions trying to get their members and the broader workforce back on their feet economically. It's too great a distraction.
  19. Noa Rodman
    Noa Rodman
    I left out the preceding manifesto quote from the passage: "..This organization of the proletarians into a class, and, consequently, into a political party, is continually being upset again by the competition between the workers themselves. But it ever rises up again, stronger, firmer, mightier.”

    which is grist for the mill of the economist interpreters of Marx/Engels (Kautsky wrote about their 'alleged orthodox marxism'). Here one can properly claim 'I'm not a Marxist'. Also the manifesto itself doesn't seem to discuss the three goals of actual worker-class parties (just a single line).
  20. Die Neue Zeit
    Die Neue Zeit
    Noa, that's true only because the DOTP wasn't formulated at all at that point. I think that line needs to be emphasized more because it truly revisits all forms of frontism and all tactics of entryism very critically.

    A modern PNNC implies a specific form of frontism for the organization (rejects both United and Popular Fronts) and a specific form of deep entryism required of small-c communist workers ("Pabloism" on steroids).