Coup in the MLM group.

This is the official thread about what happened in the MLM group in the last few days, for those of us who have not followed it.

Last month Ismail offered to become the group-mod. He was elected as four members of the group voted for him. Out of these four members, only one is a Maoist.
There was some friction between me and Hoxhaists in this group. When I wanted to join the Hoxhaist group I was not let in by Ismail, who is also the group-mod of the Hoxhaist group. When I brought this up here as an example of Hoxhaist sectarianism, adding that Hoxhaists are allowed in the MLM group, Ismail's willingness to lead the MLM group was cited as an example of Hoxhaist non-sectarianism towards Maoists. I tried to return the same kind of non-sectarian favour by offering to become the group-mod of the Hoxhaist group. Needless to say, Ismail prevented this. Later I offered to be the group-mod of the MLM group, but was opposed by anti-Maoists in the group. I started a separate Maoist group to serve as a place for Maoists to discuss among themselves, until this matter was sorted out. I requested Ismail to include the link of the Maoist group description of the MLM group.

Instead of doing that, he changed the group description into a reactionary distortion of Maoism. Earlier he had already changed the group-picture from a mass-rally in Nepal to a poster on Sino-Albanian alliance. And he did both of these without consulting Maoists in the group.

In the meantime, I got support from Maoist comrades, including the comrade who had earlier voted for Ismail. We noticed the change in the group-description, and there was an outrage demanding the restoration of the old group-description. Ismail had support left only in a minority, and probably from no Maoist. But Ismail reacted by excluding me and other Maoist comrades from the group, and by deleting the thread and posts in which comrades had voted for me or demanded the restoration of the old group-description.

Though the discussion here on this topic will have minimal effect of what happens in the MLM group, I think it is still very important to have a debate. Ismail, despite seeming to be one of the most well-read posters here, has acted in an extremely anti-ML manner. In fact, his act of pretending to be a well-wisher of the MLM group and then engaging in such treachery, reminds us of the revisionists that continuously plotted against the socialist USSR while disguising themselves as Marxist-Leninists. Hence it is to be decided whether such a person, despite his bookish knowledge, is worthy to remain in the ML group and the Hoxhaist group, let alone be their group-mod. This is not a time to get into a sectarian defence mode, but to think about whether we call ourselves Marxist-Leninists because we mechanically defend Stalin, or because we uphold and practice the same proletarian democratic principles that Stalin stood for.

Last month Ismail offered to become the group-mod. He was elected as four members of the group voted for him. Out of these four members, only one is a Maoist.

Four voted for siren_bang for him to become moderator last time. I was voted in on the same basis as siren_bang: the inactivity of the prior group maintainer. Furthermore as a former global moderator I took the group to simply ensure it had an active maintainer.

Of those who voted, Comrades Unite! is clearly a Maoist and anti-Hoxha, jookyle is sympathetic to Maoism and does not identify as pro-Hoxha to my knowledge, Roach is a Maoist sympathizer, and Positivist is his own thing.

There was some friction between me and Hoxhaists in this group.

No there wasn't, not until I became group maintainer and you began doing the hijinks you subsequently describe. You didn't even partake in the vote.

I tried to return the same kind of non-sectarian favour by offering to become the group-mod of the Hoxhaist group.

Which makes no sense since I am obviously perfectly active and, furthermore, was granted control over it by Prairie Fire, its founder.

Later I offered to be the group-mod of the MLM group, but was opposed by anti-Maoists in the group.

I assume you mean "dogmatic" Maoists, as opposed to your own "anti-dogmatic" self.

Ismail reacted by excluding me and other Maoist comrades from the group

You and they kept on spamming the group. Anyone is free to join your splinter group and remain members of the original group on RevLeft, but going on about the "Stalinist dogmato-revisionist Ismail" and so on in the latter is not the way to do it.

but to think about whether we call ourselves Marxist-Leninists because we mechanically defend Stalin, or because we uphold and practice the same proletarian democratic principles that Stalin stood for.

"Mechanically defend Stalin" says all that needs to be said about you.

Four voted for siren_bang for him to become moderator last time. I was voted in on the same basis as siren_bang: the inactivity of the prior group maintainer. Furthermore as a former global moderator I took the group to simply ensure it had an active maintainer.

Of those who voted, Comrades Unite! is clearly a Maoist and anti-Hoxha, jookyle is sympathetic to Maoism and does not identify as pro-Hoxha to my knowledge, Roach is a Maoist sympathizer, and Positivist is his own thing.

Five Actually.

If you count my post,Roaches and Jookyles as votes then you must also count Negative Creep's, A strict anti-Maoist Hoxhaist.

No there wasn't, not until I became group maintainer and you began doing the hijinks you subsequently describe. You didn't even partake in the vote.

Hijinks? He posted a thread doing the same as you did, asking to be Group Leader to turn the group into a true Maoist group, Getting rid of the Hoxhaists that roam freely around the forum(Maoists in the Hoxhaist group are non-existent) and essentially turning it into a Maoist group, This thread was deleted by you, Might I also add that a few Maoists have been kicked out of the group by an Anti-Maoist Marxist Leninist with me included.

You and they kept on spamming the group. Anyone is free to join your splinter group and remain members of the original group on RevLeft, but going on about the "Stalinist dogmato-revisionist Ismail" and so on in the latter is not the way to do it.

Is this a joke? Nobody was spamming anything, How is it that when a Maoist offers to be a leader in a Maoist group spamming?
You're reaction to the 'spamming' was ridiculous, If that occurred with the Hoxhaist group then the same thing that occurred in the Maoist group would be expected from the devout Hoxhaists.

I believe you should resign as the leader of the Maoist group and let one of us manage it, Then the debate and schism will be laid to rest and the Maoists can operate and manage their own group and the Hoxhaists can do the same.

If you do feel that you shouldn't resign then atleast kick out the active non-maoist and close the group.

I await your reply.

A strict anti-Maoist Hoxhaist.
Has a nice ring to it.

Hmm, I must say it does haha.

Ismail deleted my post where I only said "I vote for Ind-com". Many pro-Maoist posts disappeared. Pro-Maoist group description was changed. This is not cool. The MLM group needs a Maoist moderator.

Might I also add that a few Maoists have been kicked out of the group by an Anti-Maoist Marxist Leninist with me included.

I gave the reason why.

Ismail deleted my post where I only said "I vote for Ind-com".

There is no election for you to "vote" in, nor did you partake in the one that was actually held.

"The Douche" has now taken it over and will reinstate siren bang as the group leader until further notice.

Yes, "anti-dogmatic" Maoists saved by anarchism.

Even a bourgeois democrat is far better than someone who pretends to be an ML and then deletes opposing votes, removes the voters from the group and distorts the very description of the group to fit his bullshit strawmen.

Edit: The votes and opposition to changing the group-description were 'spam'. LOL. And yes, Maoists are very anti-dogmatic when it comes to ousting traitors.

Ousting traitors? Come on dude, this is a fucking internet site. You make it sound like something is happening in real life. Everyone is going to forget in a week.

Ousting traitors? Come on dude, this is a fucking internet site. You make it sound like something is happening in real life. Everyone is going to forget in a week.

It was a reply to someone who called it Maoists being saved by anarchism. I was just honouring his seriousness about it.

I would so follow this guy's revolution

Let's not be silly and resort to name-calling and other childishness. Disagreements are allowed but immature silliness isn't.

Well, apparently my credentials weren't good enough...I was "removed" from the MLM group. It's okay...I'm ML, no need for another M.

Hey, I've just been purged! I feel so communist right now...

-soso

Many members have been removed due to a misunderstanding, but your case is different. The PSL is not a Maoist party.

Well, apparently my credentials weren't good enough...I was "removed" from the MLM group. It's okay...I'm ML, no need for another M.

Hey, I've just been purged! I feel so communist right now...

-soso

Come to the Hoxha-side....

Come to the Hoxha-side....

I already have a soft spot for Comrade Hoxha...read a lot of his work, and appreciate his staunch anti-revisionist line. Plus, it drives leftists NUTS when you talk about him!

-soso

So folks what's the final outcome? Sorry I always forget to check in for days.

Siren Bang has done a purge of the MLM group.
We must overthrow that revisionist leadership with a cultural revolution.
Or something.

The MLM group-membership has been limited to Maoists and pro-Maoists. However, anyone who supports the ongoing people's wars may join the People's War group.

I assume you mean "dogmatic" Maoists, as opposed to your own "anti-dogmatic" self.

You and they kept on spamming the group. Anyone is free to join your splinter group and remain members of the original group on RevLeft, but going on about the "Stalinist dogmato-revisionist Ismail" and so on in the latter is not the way to do it.

"Mechanically defend Stalin" says all that needs to be said about you.

Was that the reason why I was banned from both the Maoist and Hoxha group? Becasue I was "spamming" the Hoxha group? Or was it becasue I had to much of a "anti-dogmatic" view on capitalist china, or was it a to "dogmatic" view on the fact that I saw Mao as a communist and not a socialist. Though I know that I was removed from a group just after I stated how Hoxha defended Mao during the Soviet-Sino split, which led to the Sino-Albanian split after the same thing was done to Mao as to Stalin.

I will never know, the Hoxha group never explain the reason why was bad, and after my leave of absence I just found out that I am no longer part of the Mao group.

After a little scuffle in the Hoxha group, I was being this think that most Marxist-Leninist had a dogmatic view of China as capitalist. It almost seemed to me that we were falling into the same hypocrisies that many in the fake left do. One minute they are praising the fall of the Soviet Union, the next they are condemning the fact that America has written the Soviet Union's part in the war out of the history books. I some times ask if I stated that China was communist or socialist under Mao, I would be branded revisionist by my fellow Marxist-Leninist. But I see that I'm not the only one with problems with your view of China. So I'm going to the state my views right here and right now, and let the others proved to me if we have a dogmatic view on China or a scientific one.

My views on China can only be stated in reflection to my anti-revisionist view. I view Stalin, Mao and Hoxha as communist and Lenin as a Socialsit. Which I know is different than many people's views on the subject. I clearly state though the difference between these two groups. While most people turn communist into a utopian fantasy world, I point out that only does it realistically possible is already been done. I put Stalin, Mao and Hoxha a higher pedestal than most other Marxist-Leninist do. As I see them not building socialist nations, but communist ones. This may fly in the face of what those people have said about themselves, but I believe that these men are just being modest with the statements of themselves.

Economically I believe that any New Economic Plan (the same plan written up by Lenin), no matter what form it takes or how well it is been implemented is a socialist state. On the other hand I find any state that implements a plan economy in any form to be a communist nation and not a socialist.

This means that I see the nations inder Stalin, Mao and Hoxha as communist and not socialist ones. I think these men for their effort, yes they failed to produce communism in a form that lasted the test of time, but is not belittle the monumental achievements that they accomplished. This does not mean that I do not hold Lenin I regards. In fact the current new economic plan currently in activation in China has made that country to one of the most successful nations in history. It had only been cheap labor that made China successful then everything would've been outsourced to India. It is not the cheap labor that brings people to China, it their economic system.

Seems like you do not have any understanding of what Marxism-Leninism is?
Building Communist nations?
Stalin, Mao and Hoxha as communists but not Lenin?

No, just no.

Comrade Stalin, could you elaborate on your views a bit more? I'm kind of confused. Isn't communism a stateless, classless society of free association among producers? How can a planned economy be equated to communism? A planned economy is an instrument of socialism for organizing the economy along lines that will eliminate capitalism. In a "true" communist society the means of production would not be organized along class lines and would be sufficiently advanced to prove for the whole of mankind, thus no plan would be necessary. The negation of the negation.

To the user who pretentionsly calls himself ''Comrade Stalin'', I feel the need to say as the new mod of the MLM group that I and most of the current members weren't active when he was banned, and after the current change on the group's policies I can only be certain that, due to your atrocious views, we are not letting you back. The Marxist-Leninists of either Albanian or Chinese line, and those that follow neither of the two, can pretty much denounce your views as un-marxist and specially anti-leninist. I am even going as far enough to call you a troll, I only have not done so already because I imagined it was un-nescessery to see such mud-slinging on the ML group, however I think this has gone way too far.

Seems like you do not have any understanding of what Marxism-Leninism is?
Building Communist nations?
Stalin, Mao and Hoxha as communists but not Lenin?

No, just no.

I said that Stalin, Mao and Hoxha were communist and Lenin was a socialist. Does not mean I have a negtive view of Lenin.

But I must ask how you view is better. If we follow the "current ture understanding of Marxism-Leninism" then there has never been a communist nation on earth. Not under Stalin, Mao or Hoxha. This leads to the possibility that there will never be a communist nation on earth. My line of think say that not only has there been a communist nation on earth, but it works, if not in a "stand the test of time" form.

To the user who pretentionsly calls himself ''Comrade Stalin'', I feel the need to say as the new mod of the MLM group that I and most of the current members weren't active when he was banned, and after the current change on the group's policies I can only be certain that, due to your atrocious views, we are not letting you back. The Marxist-Leninists of either Albanian or Chinese line, and those that follow neither of the two, can pretty much denounce your views as un-marxist and specially anti-leninist. I am even going as far enough to call you a troll, I only have not done so already because I imagined it was un-nescessery to see such mud-slinging on the ML group, however I think this has gone way too far.

On some level I all ready knew that my difference in view would be rejected by memebers on this fourm. It is the reason why I did not post them in the past. But I have it was unnecessary to call me a "troll" as I have not used any personal attack against any one here which is more then what I can say about you. I have never called any ML a, troll, un-marxist, or anti-leninist in the past.

Sure some of Marx view don't sit right with me, and I have standed them in the past. But that does not make me un-marxist, when I say that some of Marx theory don't match real world fact. When did communism become a religion and not a science? Where one could question theroy and change them to match fact.

Is it un-marxist of me to say that communism will not work if we ask more out, then we put in?

And I would like to have you explain to me why I'm anti-Lenin, after I defend him in the main form with so many other ML. Sure I was not the best debate, but If I was anti-Lenin then why would I defend him?

You know what I find the most insulting of all this, It is not the name calling, or the attack. Yes I'm mad about them, but at the end of the day it is Ideal that we are a science with un-question able view.

It does make your view if Lenin bad, because the Bolsheviks followed the line of Lenin.
Stalin always called himself a disciple of Lenin, to say Lenin was not a communist is to distort and vulgarise the October Revolution.

What is a communist nation?

There is a big difference between advancing Marxism and making wild claims that go against it's own basic principles.