Belarus isn't socialist...

I'd like to debunk the vulgar idea that state ownership can be considered socialist once and for all.

I'm going to take the Leninist view of the state into account for a moment. For the working class to become ruling class and achieve state power, it has to have control of the majority of the means of production to do so (although in an actual revolution the working class is more than likely to completely overthrow the capitalist system and claim all the means of production for itself). State ownership (and don't say BS like "but the workers control the economy through the state") inevitably leads to the rise of a new bureaucratic class of officials and ministers. For the working class to occupy the state apparatus, it needs to control the entire economy itself.

Also, employment statistics do not affect the economic character of a country.

I'd like to debunk the vulgar idea that state ownership can be considered socialist once and for all.

I'm going to take the Leninist view of the state into account for a moment. For the working class to become ruling class and achieve state power, it has to have control of the majority of the means of production to do so (although in an actual revolution the working class is more than likely to completely overthrow the capitalist system and claim all the means of production for itself). State ownership (and don't say BS like "but the workers control the economy through the state") inevitably leads to the rise of a new bureaucratic class of officials and ministers. For the working class to occupy the state apparatus, it needs to control the entire economy itself.

Also, employment statistics do not affect the economic character of a country.

Unfortunately, for your un-Socialist view of how Socialism should be, you are not only going against Lenin but you're also going against Marx.

From the Communist Manifesto:

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.

Your perfect idea of Socialism, especially while US Imperialism is still powerful, is complete idealism. Your view is simplistic and lazy as a supposed "Leftist".


On Belarus, I don't know enough about the country to call it Socialist. In fact, I don't know much at all about Belarus so I joined to learn.

Unfortunately, for your un-Socialist view of how Socialism should be, you are not only going against Lenin but you're also going against Marx.

From the Communist Manifesto:

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.

Your perfect idea of Socialism, especially while US Imperialism is still powerful, is complete idealism. Your view is simplistic and lazy as a supposed "Leftist".


On Belarus, I don't know enough about the country to call it Socialist. In fact, I don't know much at all about Belarus so I joined to learn.

I thought you could do better than this. Last I could recall, these were workers' demands specific to the conditions at the time. Also, I think Marx and/or Engels admit this in a later edition of the manifesto. Don't believe me? Just ask it in a Learning thread.

I thought you could do better than this. Last I could recall, these were workers' demands specific to the conditions at the time. Also, I think Marx and/or Engels admit this in a later edition of the manifesto. Don't believe me? Just ask it in a Learning thread.

Copout.

Belarus has a mixed economy which is half state owned half privately owned it also has only 1% of the population unemployed so I'd say it's socialist.

Buddy it could be all state owned and it wouldn't matter. What's important is that labor holds political power - state ownership is only a manifestation of this in socialism.

Like all ex-Soviet countries they have a capitalist economy and Soviet nostalgia fetishism.

How's that Soviet nostalgia going in the Baltics?

In Belarus the government is run by the people.

hahahahahahahahahaha

Care to give me examples of this? Let me guess they vote for the individuals that run the country, therefore they somehow run the government even though they have no control of the actions of it?

"Through their representatives"

Oh, so you mean like how I control the Bourgeoisie through my local MP?

What's incredibly funny is that, even though MLs agree that all the SSRs underwent a period of revisionism from around the time Stalin died and some other guy came to power, you think that Belarus can be considered socialist in 2010 when workers have no control of the economy and 50% of industry is still privately owned?