Comrades: One area which I always find myself grappling with are the minority rights issues--homosexual rights, feminism, etc. and the (perhaps misconceived?) idea within left communism as to more or less solely restricted the discussion of liberation to the working class. I know that gays exist in all levels of class, but when bourgeois society targets them, should we just shrink from the battlefield and leave it to the Leninists and liberals? I understand that we let the working class organize itself, speak for itself, but when it comes to homophobia, for instance, do we correct the biases some may have against them? What are you thoughts on this?
We should certainly denounce homophobia, which is now taking horrific forms in Africa and elsewhere. We plan to do an article about this. The question is whether we call for 'gay rights' or for a separate gay movement, or for a class movement that integrates the struggle against all forms of oppression. In places like Africa, in any case, 'legal rights' wouldn't mean much without a social movement that changed consciousness on a large scale, and this can only be the result of a working class movement. In South Africa there are 'rights' for gays but there are many cases of lesbians being 'correctively raped'.
The question is whether we call for 'gay rights' or for a separate gay movement, or for a class movement that integrates the struggle against all forms of oppression. Yes--I agree. Self-sustaining, isolated oppressed minority groups seem to go in one of two directions: to the broad, "social movement" parliamentarian route (i.e., Gay Marriage in the US being fought within the judiciary and legislature in the US) or they become further marginalized, perhaps even adopting their own bigoted attitudes to the outside (i.e., Black nationalist/separatist groups in the US). The problem really is to develop a synthesis between homosexuality and class. Certainly we must go beyond Marx and Engels (we are to be critical) since they both denounced homosexuality as bourgeois decadence. Perhaps there isn't any, in which case the goal would be admittedly a lot simpler: reject homophobic attitudes as part of cultural or religious prejudices.
I think, to be honest, that left communists have rather neglected this question, particularly at the historical level. I am aware of Engels' comments (in Origins of the Family, I believe) - can you point me to Marx's? I have an old pamphlet by the now defunct British and Irish Communist Organisation (Stalinists) containing a speech by Bernstein from the late 19th century which argues against the existing laws in Germany outlawing homosexuality (a number of countries had already got rid of such laws following the revolution in France), and in general against state interference in individuals' sexual lives. He points out that different societies have had much less repressive attitudes to the question, although there is still a strong influence of the idea of homosexuality as being 'abnormal'. Have you come across much else on the subject in the writings of the past workers' movement? I agree that the most important thing is to reject homophobia, especially as it's being used by the state as a kind of scapegoat and a divisive force in Africa today
I agree that the most important thing is to reject homophobia, especially as it's being used by the state as a kind of scapegoat and a divisive force in Africa today Do you not feel there is a danger in placing the biggest emphasis on homophobia in Africa of slipping into the discourse of civilisation and progress etc. Most times I see people condemn homophobia in Africa it is normally referring to Africans as barbaric or backwards, in itself invoking colonial rhetoric.
I think, to be honest, that left communists have rather neglected this question, particularly at the historical level. Correct. Both historically and today I feel this question has been neglected. To the point where you couldn't blame people for thinking communists are indifferent to the oppression of minority groups. However, the false alternative posed by identity politics and separatism alluded to by Alf, doesn't in my opinion offer a perspective for overcoming this oppression. I also agree with the need for a class based approach ("for a class movement that integrates the struggle against all forms of oppression."). But the point is at the moment communists have not undertaken the work of developing a theoretical framework and approach to "integrate the struggle against all forms of oppression" into their political activity and what that would look like. I've no real developed position/approach, just what is ruled out and posing what must be confronted. What do others think? Also, do people have any reading suggestions on this or related questions.
I think, to be honest, that left communists have rather neglected this question, particularly at the historical level. I am aware of Engels' comments (in Origins of the Family, I believe) - can you point me to Marx's? Sorry, I meant Engels not Marx. Though to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if he felt the same... I have an old pamphlet by the now defunct British and Irish Communist Organisation (Stalinists) containing a speech by Bernstein from the late 19th century which argues against the existing laws in Germany outlawing homosexuality (a number of countries had already got rid of such laws following the revolution in France), and in general against state interference in individuals' sexual lives. He points out that different societies have had much less repressive attitudes to the question, although there is still a strong influence of the idea of homosexuality as being 'abnormal'. Have you come across much else on the subject in the writings of the past workers' movement? No, I haven't. I think the Bernstein quote should be circulated and brought around. Could you identify a source online for it? I agree that the most important thing is to reject homophobia, especially as it's being used by the state as a kind of scapegoat and a divisive force in Africa today Yes, and I think when economic power collapses among the working class, how quickly people begin to resort to civilizations theory a la Huntington. A ever-present, degenerative tendency..
Do you not feel there is a danger in placing the biggest emphasis on homophobia in Africa of slipping into the discourse of civilisation and progress etc. Most times I see people condemn homophobia in Africa it is normally referring to Africans as barbaric or backwards, in itself invoking colonial rhetoric. Perhaps I'm wrong, but when it comes to progress I thought as communists we're to take the view that progress comes, but with its own ugly twin, or the dialectics of progress if you will. Although he's not appreciated by many left communists, I think Andre Gunder Frank's dependency theory works (except for Re:Orient) give a satisfactory response: "More important, our ignorance of the underdeveloped countries' history leads us to assume that their past and indeed their present resembles earlier stages of the history of the now developed countries. This ignorance and this assumption lead us into serious misconceptions about contemporary underdevelopment and development." http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...41/ai_7659725/
This contains some interesting stuff, even though written from a leftist standpoint. http://www.fifthinternational.org/co...d-gay-question Fairly evident that Engels had some pretty reactionary view on the question, as expressed in private correspondence with Marx, but then you can find all sorts of rubbish in those letters. Public utterances of social democracy were more in line with Bernstein's views - Bebel took the same position in the Reichstag, that there should be no laws repressing homosexual acts. Quite possibly there is not a great deal of theoretical value in the past workers' movement on this question and we will have to rescue it from the leftists and separatists. Personally i would argue that we would also need to integrate some of Freud's insights, particularly his view of the human being's original bisexuality (or 'polymorphous perversity') which provides the basis for a critical examination of all forms of 'adult' sexuality inside the historical conditions of alienation and repression. Regarding the question of Africa, I don't think internationalists should have any fear of denouncing barbarism wherever it appears. As a matter of fact it may well be the case that the extremely repressive attitudes against gay people we are seeing today are to a large extent an import from the Christian and Muslim ideologies that came with various forms of colonisation; I am only just beginning to look at this, but I do know that in a number of tribal societies, including African ones, homosexuality was integrated into social life. Probably more the case with communist hunter gatherers than societies where private property was already creating social divisions and a qualitative development of patriarchy. But these are questions rather than answers.
Comrades, what do you think of the Walter Benn Michaels's article: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n16/walter-...s/what-matters
The article was very interesting. He seems to be arguing that the 'anti-sexist' and 'anti-racist' ideologies are essentially reformist, looking mainly for changes inside capitalist relations, and ignoring the fundamental question of class exploitation - for these ideologies, 'classism' is a bad thing, but really it boils down to just another way of being rude to people, like sexism and racism, and this problem can be cured by finding better words for describing people, or promoting a few from the oppressed group into positions of power. Maybe I read some of that in, but it does seem quite close to the communist standpoint.
I would be interested in opinions in the article we have just published: http://en.internationalism.org/iccon...gay-oppression
Your link doesn't lead anyplace, Alf.
Your link doesn't lead anyplace, Alf. That's weird. Seems to work for me.
That's weird. Seems to work for me. What's even weirder is that it works for me now too, apparently without any adjustment... *goes to read*
i think there was a problem with the website recently
