What made you leave trotskyism?

I just couldn't bare what him and Lenin had done to political dissidents. I also considered the idea that it's very unoriginal

Mainly it was the dogmatism and sectarianism. I think many of Trotsky's ideas are still valid, but I don't want to be part of a movement that treats them like received wisdom from on high, rather than places them in a specific context.

I didn't leave Trotskyism all in one go as such. I developed my ideas and found weeks later that I belonged more to the Councillist tendency than to the Trotskyist.

Yes I viewed Trotsktism more libertarian than it actually was.

No offence but, is Maoism and ML'ism (or whatever tendency it is that you are, judging by your usergroups) really much better in those aspects?

I'm in many different tendency groups in order to learn about them. I'm neither a Maoist nor a MList. I consider myself a revolutionary Marxist, and I want to learn from everyone who made contributions to the struggle.

I also agree the ML and MLM both suffer from the same dogmatism and sectarianism as Trotskyism.

Trotskyists also seem to have recently claimed that state capitalism or what-have-you is not part of their ideology, is there any evidence to back this up?

I'm not exactly sure. I just find thier critique of the Soviet Union to be quite bland. They completely ignore the bueracracy implemented under Lenin.

Sounds interesting. Since I'm so un-clued-up on Soviet history, could you provide a link with details on Leninist USSR bureaucracy?

The Trotskyist line that the USSR suddenly became bureaucratic under Stalin sounds like the same line spewed out by "anti-revisionists" and whatnot who claim that everything post-Stalin was suddenly overrun by evil capitalist revisionists.

This is not a Trotskyist line. The bureaucracy had been building up years before Stalin came to power, Stalin was just a powerful representative through which they held power. There are some texts on this, I'm reading 'Russia: From Worker's State to State Capitalism' which seems to explain the situation quite well. The old Tsarist and peasant bureaucracy was introduced as a necessity: http://www.marxists.org/archive/leni...918/apr/29.htm

I'm still a Trot btw so I'm not sure if you want me in this group.

Sounds interesting. Since I'm so un-clued-up on Soviet history, could you provide a link with details on Leninist USSR bureaucracy?

The Trotskyist line that the USSR suddenly became bureaucratic under Stalin sounds like the same line spewed out by "anti-revisionists" and whatnot who claim that everything post-Stalin was suddenly overrun by evil capitalist revisionists.

http://chomsky.info/articles/1986----.htm

This is not a Trotskyist line. The bureaucracy had been building up years before Stalin came to power, Stalin was just a powerful representative through which they held power. There are some texts on this, I'm reading 'Russia: From Worker's State to State Capitalism' which seems to explain the situation quite well. The old Tsarist and peasant bureaucracy was introduced as a necessity: http://www.marxists.org/archive/leni...918/apr/29.htm

I'm still a Trot btw so I'm not sure if you want me in this group.

I don't get it. So what would be the Trotskyist line? Do you believe the pre-Stalin USSR was a worker's state or a holding point to implement socialism?

I guess Lenin's USSR started to degrade from something-not-entirely-socialist-anyway to fully fledged state-capitalist/other-crap-like-that with the arrival of the NEP and the slow degradation of any powers the workers councils (soviets) had. The sudden rapid growth of the bureaucracy must've just been a noteworthy feature of Stalin's USSR.

Yes the revolutionary atmosphere had existed before the Bolsheviks came to power. IMO the soviets only put a stress for potential party bueracracy. Without direct worker control, VIOLA! you get a one-party degenerate, Fasco-Capitalist regime.

It was a years-long process for me, beginning in the 1990s and ending in the aftermath of 9/11. For a while afterward, I considered myself a "post-Trotskyist", then just a Leninist, and now just a communist. Trotsky's analysis of fascism was a valuable contribution to communist theory, but that's about it. Everything else was an elaboration on what others formulated.

What exactly is Trotskyist observation of Fascism? I don't really know........

I wouldn't call it fascist. In this case, I'm guessing fascist is a synonym for authoritarian?

Not really, I'm speaking of corperatist, statist, bueracracy that fascism encourages.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trot...4/1944-fas.htm

Thank you

I don't get it. So what would be the Trotskyist line? Do you believe the pre-Stalin USSR was a worker's state or a holding point to implement socialism?

If we can define a worker's state as a state democratically controlled by the working class, then for a while it was indeed a worker's state. Out of curiosity, how would you define socialism?

@Alpha: the bureaucracy had been building up years before Stalin threw Trotsky out, Lenin himself observed this: http://www.marxists.org/archive/leni...last/index.htm

If we can define a worker's state as a state democratically controlled by the working class, then for a while it was indeed a worker's state. Out of curiosity, how would you define socialism?

@Alpha: the bureaucracy had been building up years before Stalin threw Trotsky out, Lenin himself observed this: http://www.marxists.org/archive/leni...last/index.htm

I define socialism as a force against authoritarian methods to accumulate capital. Therefore I don't think centralism can apply itself towards natural socialist development.

Yes, you told us that. But what I was getting at was that the Stalin-era bureaucracy must've been alot more noticable than Lenin's.

If I remember rightly the difference between the bureaucracy under lenin and Stalin was, while Lenin saw it as a problem and wanted "honest communism" Stalin encouraged it.

Because hes ugly.

First I thought Trotsy was more libertarian than it truly was and beCAUSE OF TYHE PETTY ARGUMENTS IN tROTSKYISM AND COMMUNISM IN GENERAL