Does this group want to exist and discuss?

If so what topics do people want to discuss? I think there could be some interesting discussions, but if people don't make an effort, it will just be another dead group, which nobody uses.

Devrim

Well as a carry on from the "what is council communism" thread we could discuss which groups today best uphold the legacy of council communism.

Maybe a discussion on what exactly a "council" is. Bordiga distuinguished between the soviet councils as the form of political representation of the working class and the factory councils etc as economic organs for managing production. From what I remember of Pannekoek he just mentions "councils" very vaguely as if it's a one size fits all mode of organisation. Also wether or not CC'ers overfetishise council forms to the exclusion of any considerations about their actual content and ignore other important revolutionary organs like the vanguard party.

Yes this might be useful, it would be good to have defined a) what exactly is a council b) why councils can only come in to existence in periods of intense struggle.

Maybe a discussion on what exactly a "council" is.

Yes this might be useful, it would be good to have defined a) what exactly is a council b) why councils can only come in to existence in periods of intense struggle.

Conveniently, the is an article on it in the new IR: What are workers' councils? (Part 1): Why did workers' councils emerge in 1905?

Devrim

Pt 2 also out:

http://en.internationalism.org/ir/14...rs-councils-02

Ok so what distinguishes councils from, for example, strike committees?

Ok so what distinguishes councils from, for example, strike committees?

Councils are composed of delegates from strike committees, so they are bodies that collect workers from different workplaces.

Devrim

Councils are composed of delegates from strike committees, so they are bodies that collect workers from different workplaces.

Devrim

So it's just about geography and size?
In terms of the way they are structured eg. elections, they would be essentially the same?

Not sure what the exact definition of a strike committee is, but i can explain what i feel the councils roll is.

Councils are at many levels, there may even be more than one council with in one workplace if it is of a large scale. But then would have delegates to bridge the different councils. You will also have delegates going to more regional councils incorporating many different work place councils. These delegate are voted as a representative of the council they are from, they are not in any way an elected leader. They are re-callable at any moment if the council feels necessary, the representative is basically a relay to their council. In modern time this delegates duties becomes less, and i hope at least, to almost get rid of this roll. Since we have better ways of communicating with a large number of people and easier than sending representatives.

You also have Community councils which work to represent other areas of the community, such as stay at home parents etc...

So it's just about geography and size?
In terms of the way they are structured eg. elections, they would be essentially the same?

Pretty much so, a workers council is composed of delegates from strike/workplace committees.

You also have Community councils which work to represent other areas of the community, such as stay at home parents etc...

You brought up this idea of community councils somewhere before. I think it is important to recognise that these sort of councils are not classed based organs in the same way that workers councils are.

Devrim

What is the Difference between Industrial Unions and Workers' Councils? Are Industrial Union Spontaneous or not as Rosa Luxembourg says? What's the relation between Anarcho - Syndicalism and Council Communism?

You brought up this idea of community councils somewhere before. I think it is important to recognise that these sort of councils are not classed based organs in the same way that workers councils are.

Devrim

In the same sense workers have to rise and to seize their work place from the bourgeoisie, the same has to be done in their communities. The working class must remove the grip of the bourgeoisie from their home's, form their communities. How is this not a class based organisation? I say Worker Councils and Community Councils are just two halves of the same. I do see where your coming from, its in the same way parties aren't class based organs.

What is the Difference between Industrial Unions and Workers' Councils? Are Industrial Union Spontaneous or not as Rosa Luxembourg says? What's the relation between Anarcho - Syndicalism and Council Communism?

Council Communists don't support the use of unions like Anarcho-Syndicalists do.

In the same sense workers have to rise and to seize their work place from the bourgeoisie, the same has to be done in their communities. The working class must remove the grip of the bourgeoisie from their home's, form their communities. How is this not a class based organisation? I say Worker Councils and Community Councils are just two halves of the same.

By removing the Bourgeoisie power in factories, they lose all Political Power and consequentially power in a community. When we think "worker" we think of Industrial Worker but forget Telecommunications/Media sector and public workers which do define communities. As a consequence of these members organized into Workers' Councils the bourgeoisie would loss power in the community, rendering a community council useless.

Sylvia Pankhurst however purposes some very similar to a Community council following the victory of the Revolution, in the British Soviets Points Communist Programme.

In it she talks about Industrial Soviets forming alongside Household, Urban, Education and Health Soviets.

In the same sense workers have to rise and to seize their work place from the bourgeoisie, the same has to be done in their communities. The working class must remove the grip of the bourgeoisie from their home's, form their communities. How is this not a class based organisation? I say Worker Councils and Community Councils are just two halves of the same. I do see where your coming from, its in the same way parties aren't class based organs.

If you look at the housing estate where I live, which on the whole is a pretty working class area, amongst my neighbours you will find policemen, students, and a small shopkeeper. Neighbourhoods are not solely occupied by members of one class, but have a mixed class make-up. Of course that doesn't mean that there should not be community councils, but that, as I previously said "are not classed based organs in the same way that workers councils are".

Devrim