New Bottles for Old Wine, the rerun

Some of you might remember that I a while ago in Sciences and Environment I started a thread on the basics Transhumanism with a similar title to this thread (all bar "the rerun" in fact). At the time there wasn't a lot of interest in the subject but now, hopefully, there will be some like minded people ready to stick their oar in.

I guess I'll get the ball rolling by asking a question, and attempting to give my own (brief) answer: As the need for sexual reproduction decreases and the question of population control looms imposingly over our heads is it time we embraced Post-gender ideas?

My answer, to the question would be - shortly - yes, but carefully. It is insane and, perhaps more importantly, undesirable to force people to give up their gender identities instantly but the ability to create truly androgynous individuals is something we should not overlook when thinking about the form a hypothetical post-human would take. I also think that it is an option that should be open to people considering bringing children into the world to have their child born devoid of biological gender.

It could be argued that when we have become the singularity and transcended all previous human limitations we will be heading toward or arriving at a postgender society anyway, but in the here and now I would suggest that perhaps a little more thought is put into smashing the traditional gender binary. The idea of being "genderless" might, for example appeal to those with little or no sex drive who have no strong gender identity or one that is in constant conflict.

I don't know if this sounds like insane bullshit or whether you see what I'm getting at but I am still interested in comments and (those all important) critiques.

i dont plan on having kids and i expect that by the time humanity has the option of becoming genderless i would expect there to be far better alternatives for the orgasmic high.

if i had the choice i would give up my biological body for a mechanical one right away because our biology severely limits us.

It could be argued that when we have become the singularity and transcended all previous human limitations we will be heading toward or arriving at a postgender society anyway, but in the here and now I would suggest that perhaps a little more thought is put into smashing the traditional gender binary. The idea of being "genderless" might, for example appeal to those with little or no sex drive who have no strong gender identity or one that is in constant conflict.

Well, it all depends on what you mean by "smashing the gender binary." If it means accepting those with no (or androgynous) gender identity, that's great. Smashing gender roles is already an important goal. But the vast majority of the world still has a gender identity and I don't see any reason to get rid of that in the short term.

My answer, to the question would be - shortly - yes, but carefully. It is insane and, perhaps more importantly, undesirable to force people to give up their gender identities instantly

Agreed, I think those who wish to identify as males or females should be allowed to, naturally. Anything else would be authoritarian in the extreme. Moreover, as we both know, there is certainly no need to get rid of sexuality in order to decrease population growth -- as the number of children born dramatically drops in any abundant society, such as an anarchist technate or any form of successful communism really.

Obviously the problem will reoccur once the human lifespan is radically prolonged with future medicine and technology, but there is yet room for more humans on this planet. The colonisation of space and terraforming of the solar system (hell, the whole galaxy even!) are also likely solutions.

the ability to create truly androgynous individuals is something we should not overlook when thinking about the form a hypothetical post-human would take. I also think that it is an option that should be open to people considering bringing children into the world to have their child born devoid of biological gender.

Perhaps, but in a yet quite distant future, in a society with different values and more free of prejudice. As it is now, I fear the children would suffer unnecessarily much from being so radically different. While I do agree that we should 'keep this door open' by further research in the area, I don't think mankind is ready for this yet, not with the mindsets developed under our current mode of production, the price system, nation states, sexism and so forth.

That crap has to go first.

As I hope I made clear I was simply exploring ideas and taking advantage of the new group format - after all the criticisms you guys raise are certainly better thought out than the usual bioconservative howling.

RevMARKSman first:

But the vast majority of the world still has a gender identity and I don't see any reason to get rid of that in the short term.

Well clearly. I find it interesting how you qualified that with "in the short term", I'm assuming that making all posthumans androgynous is not the long term goal you had in mind but would you imagine that it would be a good thing for the non-gendered population to grow in the long term?

Sentinel:

Perhaps, but in a yet quite distant future, in a society with different values and more free of prejudice. As it is now, I fear the children would suffer unnecessarily much from being so radically different. While I do agree that we should 'keep this door open' by further research in the area, I don't think mankind is ready for this yet, not with the mindsets developed under our current mode of production, the price system, nation states, sexism and so forth.

That crap has to go first.

Hmm, I should perhaps have stated on the outset that this was more of a speculative question than one of the here and now. I understand that we couldn't do this tomorrow but I was wondering more if it would be desirable the day after [figure of speech, obviously].

As the need for sexual reproduction decreases and the question of population control looms imposingly over our heads is it time we embraced Post-gender ideas?

I don't see how post-genderism relates to the question of population. Reproduction is a biological function distinct from gender - indeed, I would argue that with the rise of contraceptives, the urge for sex has become decoupled from the act of producing children.

The answer, I believe, is not to encourage post-genderism, but to discourage the conditions that lead to large families, in the main part a low quality of life. the greatest population growth is occurring in developing countries, with developed countries having low or even negative birthrates.

Namely, we need to raise quality of life across the board.

It could be argued that when we have become the singularity and transcended all previous human limitations we will be heading toward or arriving at a postgender society anyway, but in the here and now I would suggest that perhaps a little more thought is put into smashing the traditional gender binary. The idea of being "genderless" might, for example appeal to those with little or no sex drive who have no strong gender identity or one that is in constant conflict.

I think that post-genderism is something that will arise "naturally" as the result of increasing acceptance of homosexuality and transgendered individuals - Society has a lot of "momentum" and I believe that attempting to force things in a given direction will be a futile effort. What we can do is defend alternative sexualities and gender (non)identities whenever and wherever we can.

but would you imagine that it would be a good thing for the non-gendered population to grow in the long term?

Not really, but not opposed, I'm pretty neutral about it in the long term (forgive the half-pun).

I'm not sure about this one. So this would mean an end to sex? And how would you create a genderless society? I'm just a little confused on how this would work and why it would even be necessary.

I actually don't view the necessity of this action. I don't have any problem with eliminating genders but I don't view it as necessary. Of course I will change my opinion if someone proves me that one of the two genders would enjoy more privileges than the other gender even in a future communist / anarchist etc ideal society.

I mean with enormous cosmetics technology, enormous psychiatric knowledge etc and their free and public character, I do not see the real problem in sexual relationships that would urge someone to need to go 'free' from the oppression of the genders.

I'm not sure about this one. So this would mean an end to sex?

No. Certain people, yes, would have no sexual organs or drive but those who still have these things are perfectly able to continue having sex. There is no point in stopping them.

And how would you create a genderless society?

You wouldn't need to, simply a society with greater acceptance of androgynous people and, of course, true androgyny.

I'm just a little confused on how this would work and why it would even be necessary.

Well, my views on this are changing thanks to argument and I now largely agree with NoXion:

I think that post-genderism is something that will arise "naturally" as the result of increasing acceptance of homosexuality and transgendered individuals - Society has a lot of "momentum" and I believe that attempting to force things in a given direction will be a futile effort. What we can do is defend alternative sexualities and gender (non)identities whenever and wherever we can.