The Left and Religion

  1. Raúl Duke
    Raúl Duke
    I bet you all have seen many leftists support/protect religion (such as chimx!; usually under the guise of a "materialist analysis" which is backed up by such evidence as hearsay of Marx, quotes, back in the 1800s when it seemed the bourgeoisie was going to wipe out religion for us.), the left's possible inability to face not just religious fascism but religion itself, and so on.

    What are your opinions about this? (In other words, discuss...especially what should be done about this.)
  2. Comrade Rage
    Comrade Rage
    My opinions: I dislike religion, even 'liberation theology' and think that it should be combated within the membership of leftist organizations.

    What can be done about this: Challenge religious leftists' beliefs. I don't think that challenging the average worker's views on religion in the current political / fundamentalist climate will have much effect, but religious self-described leftists' beliefs should be challenged with science.

    As for countering religious fascism, I'm interested in hearing what others think on the issue; I haven't thought of a way to tackle that.
  3. mykittyhasaboner
    mykittyhasaboner
    but religious self-described leftists' beliefs should be challenged with science.
    or simple, obvious reasoning

    As for countering religious fascism, I'm interested in hearing what others think on the issue; I haven't thought of a way to tackle that.
    with violent opposition of course, unless they come to their senses and surrender.
  4. Comrade Rage
    Comrade Rage
    with violent opposition of course, unless they come to their senses and surrender.
    Of course, but the exact strategy is what I'm hung up on.
  5. Raúl Duke
    Raúl Duke
    Of course, but the exact strategy is what I'm hung up on.
    Same here exactly.

    Another thing I want people to notice how some sections of the left do nothing against religion or defend it (it "divides the working class" or "Marx said xyz back in 1875..." crap excuses.) openly.

    This can be seen even in this forum of course.
    (I get irritated when in threads arguing about the left, religion, and anti-theism some leftists who defend religion sometimes make posts that only contains one quote from Marx {I have nothing against Marx but I dislike it when he's work is treated as holy writ} as if that was a sound rebuttal, when it is a debate fallacy called appeal to authority.).
  6. BurnTheOliveTree
    BurnTheOliveTree
    Just talk sense, consistently and with determination. Seriously, they're stuck defending people who might as well believe in fairies, no amount of sneering and "materialist analysis" can save them in the end.

    -Alex
  7. The Intransigent Faction
    The Intransigent Faction
    I've had a run-in or two with this "ChimX" fellow..Not pleasant.
    These "leftists" hold to religion likely for the same reason any proletariat did..Religion is the opiate of the masses. It's meant to numb, or more accurately to mask pain with illusory effects.
    Of course the proletariat are put in a desperate enough situation is this life to the point that they want to believe in some compensation for their suffering after their death.
    Barring that..it's just exploitation of an instinctual fear of death. It impairs logical reasoning. As a former Liberal Christian myself I can tell you this with confidence.
    I admit that I'm not entirely sure what can be done about hard-line Theists..The logic is there and evidently they've decided to ignore that..The best we can do is educate everyone we can in hopes of preventing religion from getting a grip on the impressionable.
  8. Raúl Duke
    Raúl Duke
    These "leftists" hold to religion likely for the same reason any proletariat did..Religion is the opiate of the masses. It's meant to numb, or more accurately to mask pain with illusory effects.
    Actually what makes it odd is that some of these leftists in question are not even religious themselves. There are 2 conceptualizations on this board:
    1)Religion has instead of being completely crushed by the bourgeoisie it has continued persistently to exist in some areas and even grow (The U.S. for example). It seems that at some point the bourgeoisie has lost much of it's "progressiveness" in this regard. Thus it is necessary to do what the bourgeoisie has not done rigorously which is to oppose/counter/attack religion especially. The rationale is that religion (especially if organized and still practice by many) is an obstacle to a communist revolution either literally/physically (as in that, at least I can imagine so in the case of the U.S., some/most of the religious would join the counter revolution such as what happened in the Spanish Civil War.) or in the sense that if it continues to exist the possibility of a leftist revolution becomes slim.

    2)That religion would not be a problem, since it will cease to exist once socialism/communism/etc is instated because the material conditions have changed. The goal now is not to marginalize them but instead to capitalize on them and win them over (opportunism?) to the left, even at the cost of capitulating to their wants/demands. (Thus so they won't be against us during the revolution)

    N.1 surely won't be popular with people quickly; but part of the left is not about joining a popularity contest but instead to fight for the long-term goal of communism/anarchism and the interests (specifically fight for those interests that if fought a certain way would increase their combativeness/class consciousness/rebelliousness) of the working class.

    N.2. runs into some problems: how far would you go to appease the religious?
    If they claim that they will do nothing to appease them the other problem would than lie towards the act of revolution. These elements, since they weren't appease, would probably form part of the counter-revolution. Usually counter-revolutions are made up of elements which most would cease to exist functionally if the revolution is successful. The fact that religion, according to them, would whiter away in the new society would surely fuel the loyally religious to do what they can to stop this new society from ever existing. There is also the question whether religion would truly whither away so easily, since it didn't seem so in the ex-transitional states.
  9. BurnTheOliveTree
    BurnTheOliveTree
    The important thing to note is that religion is not just a reaction to being poor. That, boiled down and put crudely, is the classic marxist analysis as far as I can tell. People do it for all sorts of other material reasons - Fear of death, childhood indoctrination, something to legitimise bigotry, unable to handle living without a safety net, a means to get off drugs, etc etc. These things will not disappear in a socialist society. Death will still be real and scary to some people. Childhood indoctrination is a problem separate from economics entirely. Fear of a universe without guaranteed happiness in the end is perhaps just a part of our psyche. Recreational use of drugs will be fun before and after the revolution, and some people will still get addicted.

    -Alex
  10. The Intransigent Faction
    The Intransigent Faction
    The important thing to note is that religion is not just a reaction to being poor. That, boiled down and put crudely, is the classic marxist analysis as far as I can tell. People do it for all sorts of other material reasons - Fear of death, childhood indoctrination, something to legitimise bigotry, unable to handle living without a safety net, a means to get off drugs, etc etc. These things will not disappear in a socialist society. Death will still be real and scary to some people. Childhood indoctrination is a problem separate from economics entirely. Fear of a universe without guaranteed happiness in the end is perhaps just a part of our psyche. Recreational use of drugs will be fun before and after the revolution, and some people will still get addicted.

    -Alex
    Sorry about the delay.
    Yes, I mentioned fear of death.
    I didn't mean to communicate that it was the only reason, but that it was one major reason and that others had reasons such as fear of death.
    Of course there are people that use religion to try to legitimze bigotry (For example, see:Westboro Baptist Church).
    As I was indoctrinated myself and broke free of this, I certainly recognize that as an issue.
  11. Raúl Duke
    Raúl Duke
    I would like to also ask:

    What should be our stance over religious leftists on this board?

    What should be done, as Lenin might of said? :P
  12. eyedrop
    I would like to also ask:

    What should be our stance over religious leftists on this board?

    What should be done, as Lenin might of said? :P
    Don't almost all of them end up expressing sexists, homophobic or racist remarks? And could be restricted because of that. But I would also support taking a shortcut a just restrict them on religious grounds.

    The ones who manage to keep their idealistic remarks hidden should be done nothing about as their agruments have to look as a materialists argument. Then they are not far away from thinking along materialistic thoughts..
  13. Tomhet
    Tomhet
    I do not judge a man based on their religion, I judge on action.
    If I see a truly egalitarian christian, I will praise them, I will consider them a true comrade.
    If I see a hateful, homophobic, evangelist preaching utter hatred, oppression, and discrimination. Or a borgeouis '"family" attending church service based off of 'societal expections', then they are my mortal enemy. I am an Atheist, but I will ALWAYS fundamentally support the notion that everybody has the right to believe what they want to believe. If a man creates a religion based off of a cartoon character, does not harm others in any way, or harm the community as a whole, power to him!
    His belief system is obviously ridiculous, however, if this makes him happy, harms nobody, what problem exists here!?
  14. puke on cops
    puke on cops
    I have not read enough to have a fixed position, I swing between strict secularist and raving anti-theist.
  15. RedAldo
    RedAldo
    Im with Tomhet, I have a few religious friends and I don't believe it is my right to tell them to stop believeing in ''God''. The Left should be against organised religion and it's heirarchy not those that worship under it (Unless they have a conservative agenda or preach hate e.g. Homophobia).
  16. CommunityBeliever
    CommunityBeliever
    This has really been bothering me because there is so many religious people out there even inside our own movement and I do not think we are going to be able to have communism and religion at the same time because religion itself is fueled by capitalism, money, and private property.

    Churches are more common then any other religious dwelling in the United States and non-Christian religions are oppressed as such capitalism has granted a religious monopoly to the Christian Churches. I am afraid that without capitalism, the Churches cannot exist and Religion itself will not be able to exist either...

    I am also thinking that capitalism also cannot exist without religion so if we go after religion we will actually be going after both targets at once. We just need to organize the atheists to not be scared and to spread the truth.
  17. Decolonize The Left
    Decolonize The Left
    This has really been bothering me because there is so many religious people out there even inside our own movement and I do not think we are going to be able to have communism and religion at the same time because religion itself is fueled by capitalism, money, and private property.
    Religion existed long before capitalism, money, and private property came into existence... It is true that in our current time these factors contribute to religious indoctrination, but it is not fueled by it. Rather, it is fueled by indoctrination.

    Churches are more common then any other religious dwelling in the United States and non-Christian religions are oppressed as such capitalism has granted a religious monopoly to the Christian Churches. I am afraid that without capitalism, the Churches cannot exist and Religion itself will not be able to exist either...
    I doubt this. Capitalism certainly contributes to religious dominance, but they are not one-and-the-same.

    I am also thinking that capitalism also cannot exist without religion so if we go after religion we will actually be going after both targets at once. We just need to organize the atheists to not be scared and to spread the truth.
    This is true that we need to organize, but we are better organized under the banner of 'the working class' than atheists. It seems to me that atheism is best spread through education and the removal of indoctrination methods rather than violent confrontation. Religious individuals are easily driven to zealotry and reactionary stances when pressured, and it is wiser to instill the seeds of doubt than to attempt to rip down the tree.

    Remember that religion is on the decline in the US.
  18. bailey_187
    If I see a truly egalitarian christian, I will praise them, I will consider them a true comrade.
    If I see a hateful, homophobic, evangelist preaching utter hatred, oppression, and discrimination.
    Yes but the latter has plenty of religious on their side. The hatred, oppression and discrimination is based of the teaching of the bible and christianity (i'm not saying the former is not). Therefore it must be struggled against. Maybe some "nice christains" will ignore it, but the "bad christians" have the texts on their side.
  19. Terminator X
    Terminator X
    Wow, I'm glad I found this group. I have also run into a few leftists on this board who have some curious attitudes toward anti-theists.

    For instance, I happened to read in a thread earlier today that "aggressive atheism" is a construct of "liberalism." Who knew?

    I completely disagree with this assertion. I simply don't see how leftist politics and religious devotion and proselytizing can co-exist. I have made it a part of my political life to vehemently oppose religious dogma.