Extreme democracy, extreme freedom

  1. Muzk
    Well, Rosa wanted extreme democracy, no dictatorship of a political party, nor "all power to the soviets",

    Further she wanted freedom even for liberals and fascists, she backs this like this:

    Freedom only for the supporters of the government, only for the members of a party – however numerous they may be – is no freedom at all. Freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter. Not because of the fanaticism of "justice", but rather because all that is instructive, wholesome, and purifying in political freedom depends on this essential characteristic, and its effects cease to work when "freedom" becomes a privilege.
    "Freedom is always the freedom of the one who thinks differently"


    --- combining all this, her theories say that if freedom becomes a privilege, socialism will fail, due to degeneration, deformation or whatever?


    Further I think that using "red-fascism" is not needed when the vast majority achieved class counsciousness as well as an "immunization" to wrong beliefs...



    But how do you back extreme freedom?
  2. Muzk
    I just realized that when a left government oppresses every differently thinking person the "left opposition of the left" would be cut off too...
  3. Tower of Bebel
    Tower of Bebel
    The (extremely) democratic republic is the form taken by the dictatorship of the proletariat. So freedom is backed by the proletariat. As you already wrote, the restriction of freedom means privileges, and privileges are owned by certain sections of the population. When there's no extreme democracy (when there are privileges), there's simply no healthy rule of the proletariat (= the class as a whole!).

    This however is something many Marxists support. The issue however is what it means for us today.
  4. The Intransigent Faction
    The Intransigent Faction
    I'm all for democracy and freedom and I've dragged myself, kicking and screaming, into recognizing that restrictions placed on freedom i.e. by the Bolsheviks (Edit: at least by Stalin, the 'Bolshevik' whose government executed other loyal members from the founding of the Soviet Union---I'm not sure about Lenin and trotsky at th moment) signified a privileged group of bureaucrats...

    However, I am curious about a couple of things:

    Freedom in what sense and to what degree? In an extreme democracy, would we see fascists marching thorugh the streets warning of the upcoming 'calamity' brought by a proletarian revolution? How much freedom to organize would be granted to fascists and reactionary groups that would likely resort to physical force against the revolutionary proletariat?

    Would some amount of force against extreme reactionaries not be permissable, and if it were, how would this force be exercised by workers?
  5. automattick
    automattick
    Freedom in what sense and to what degree? In an extreme democracy, would we see fascists marching thorugh the streets warning of the upcoming 'calamity' brought by a proletarian revolution? How much freedom to organize would be granted to fascists and reactionary groups that would likely resort to physical force against the revolutionary proletariat?
    Although not a Luxemburgist, Herbert Marcuse once wrote a rather excellent essay on this very matter entitled "Repressive Tolerance":

    http://www.marcuse.org/herbert/pubs/...etolerance.htm
  6. Ostrinski
    If there is still widespread fascist thought, wouldn't that mean that class consciousness hasn't been fully developed? A socialist revolution that isn't carried out by a vanguard will fail if socialist class consciousness hasn't achieved an advanced form. Since Fascism is inherently anti-labor, couldn't a fascist movement merit repression, given that fascists are direct enemies of the proletariat? Since there is no vanguard, couldn't the proletariat democratically decide to dispose of the fascist movement?

    Sorry if this sounds dumb, I am new to Luxemburg and her ideas but I am intrigued, and I admire her as a revolutionary person.
  7. Alf
    Alf
    Well, Rosa wanted extreme democracy, no dictatorship of a political party, nor "all power to the soviets".

    But didn't Rosa Luxemburg write the Spartacus Programme in 1918, which clearly calls for the dissolution of all municipal and parliamentary bodies and all authority to be in the hands of workers and soldiers councils?
  8. Brosip Tito
    If you read her works, you'll see her support the idea of a dotp.