What party should i join?

  1. Dr Mindbender
    I'm stuck in an awkward situation because want to get active but at the same time live in a town without a discernable leftist prescence.

    At the centre we have the Alliance Party, the Greens and the PUP dancing around the pseudo-fringe left (although their unionist label effectively negates any progressive merit). In my mind, Sinn Fein ceased to be a leftist party when they said ''we are a party of business''. The only other alternative seems to be the IRSP but i've been told they are inactive to the point of being negligible.

    Which all in all leaves me in a quandry.

    Furthermore, it leaves the impression in my mind that there is a need for a new leftist party, especially within the 6 counties to fill this vacuum and counter the DUP/Sinn Fein hegemony.

    Would anyone support this idea?
  2. Intifadah
    Intifadah
    There are other parties than the ones you mentioned. Pick whatever one appeals to you the most.
  3. Jorge Miguel
    eirigi, perhaps? I'm not sure. The left in Ireland are a politically bankrupt dishonest rump anyway but if it's activity that you're interested in I'd recommend eirigi and perhaps to a lesser extent the SWP or SP if it's just putting up posters and selling papers. Communist Party are alright in terms of education, but I don't know much else otherwise, they seem to be very inactive although they are organised quite well within the trade union movement.
  4. Dr Mindbender
    My main problem is i live in i unionist town and its more or less a right wing only sort of area. There is literally no leftist presence.

    I want to part of a party that can advance socialist interests but at the same time appeal to class-unconcious protestant workers. All too often groups like the SP IRSP, or eirigi are dismissed as 'republican fronts'. I'm not sure they're ready or equipped to bridge the gap.
  5. Jorge Miguel
    I'm not sure they're ready or equipped to bridge the gap.
    How can they when they favour a united Ireland in the tradition of James Connolly, who faced the same problem?

    The SP are left-unionists in the tradition of William Walker, they have links with the PUP (UVF).
  6. Dr Mindbender
    I think the northern counties needs a new leftist party, one with no specific or traditional ties to either side. At least that is my opinion.

    I think also when your party is identified as having a specific agenda on the sovereignty issue you are going to alienate one side more than the other. If the SP follow the same flavour of 'socialism' as the PUP, i have to say i'm surprised.
  7. Jorge Miguel
    Then the left become economists ignoring imperialism on their own door step... oh wait, that's already the case for the majority of the Irish left. They are completely dishonest, for example, they are opposed to imperialism, but wont oppose an RIR march because it's "sectarian"?

    It's sectarian because protestant lumpens are out cheering it on like the animals they are.
  8. Dr Mindbender
    just for the record, i didnt agree with watering down any oppostion to the RIR march, nor do i support any watering down of opposition to the union. I personally understand and acknowledge how the parade and indeed unionism at large represents beourgiose imperialist encroachment against working class interests. My personal opinion unfortunately, is beside the point.

    What i also believe though, is that in order to extend the olive branch and achieve a cross community movement we must put aside the soverignty issue until such time as we have forged input from both sides. Until then, any revolutionary movement in the north of this island will be nothing more than a 'republican front'. I think it's naive to say that the grassroots protestant working class is ready for a united ireland. Anyone living amongst them with their eyes open, with a realist perspective will tell you they are not.
  9. Jorge Miguel
    You'll probably be suited for the SP. That's their line, left-unionist by extension.
  10. Dr Mindbender
    I'm not unionist one iota.

    I just happen to beleive (sorry know) that under the existing social circumstances, any revolutionary party that wears the sovereignty issue on it's sleeve with a republican agenda will never win the favour of the attypical unionist worker.

    What we need is a party that is non-partisan in the irish context without a specific opinion on sovereignty. I am equally sceptical of any party that harbours a unionist agenda of any sort as this will alienate nationalists.
  11. Redmau5
    Redmau5
    Don't listen to Topulli US when he's talking about the SP. He's just spewing utter bullshit.
  12. Jorge Miguel
    Which bit is "utter bullshit"? Either deal with the debate or don't. Your organisation defends the Orange Order's "right" to march. Read 'Northern Ireland: Towards Division Not Peace ' by Peter Hadden for the typical anti-Catholic sectarian nature of this Unionist bigot.

    Good review here - http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/Re...onNotPeace.htm

    I just happen to beleive (sorry know) that under the existing social circumstances, any revolutionary party that wears the sovereignty issue on it's sleeve with a republican agenda will never win the favour of the attypical unionist worker.
    Exactly. Because they're backwards. There is no point in economism because it isn't going to work anyway. After 30 or so years, Militant/Socialist Party have been unable to attract any sort of support amongst Protestant workers despite their blatant economist, anti-unification positions and association with Loyalist paramilitaries.

    What we need is a party that is non-partisan in the irish context without a specific opinion on sovereignty. I am equally sceptical of any party that harbours a unionist agenda of any sort as this will alienate nationalists.
    What do you propose then? An independent Ulster?

    Brits out, Ireland free, from center to sea.
  13. Dr Mindbender
    What do you propose then? An independent Ulster?

    Brits out, Ireland free, from center to sea.
    I think you're missing my point. We need to avoid the soverignty issue altogether until such time as we have both communities on board. Not an agenda of unionism, republicanism or so called 'third way' independence. These are beourgiose constructs and a distraction from the task at hand.

    We need to concentrate primarilly on bread and butter issues as these are the only percieved common denominator that is instantly recognisable to both sides.
  14. Jorge Miguel
    I think you're missing my point. We need to avoid the soverignty issue altogether until such time as we have both communities on board.
    Why? Socialism will not work in Ireland until Loyalism is neutralised. Backwards sections of the population have to be dragged forward, it is amazing that the proponents of Red Terror in Russia under the bould Leon do not propose such solutions in Ireland. Protestants will never support a united Ireland because to do so is to unseat their relative privledged advantage over Catholics. Likewise with Israelis and Palestinians. They are part of the problem, not the solution.

    Not an agenda of unionism, republicanism or so called 'third way' independence.
    The Socialist Party propose that single issue campaigns are examples of "workers unity", what isn't explained is how single issue economist campaigns will defeat capitalism or bring about Irish unity - they wont. No one supports the left here because they're bought off. The strategy and tactics of the Irish left is the stuff of fairy tales.

    These are beourgiose constructs and a distraction from the task at hand.
    During the war when the armed thugs of the British state were murdering Irish children, was the nation a distraction of the task at hand? The whole concept of workers having no borders has been proved redundant by revolutionary history.

    We need to concentrate primarilly on bread and butter issues as these are the only percieved common denominator that is instantly recognisable to both sides.
    The Workers' Party, Socialist Party, Communist Party, and Socialist Workers Party have been persuing this failed fantasy for years and years. Why has it not worked?
  15. Redmau5
    Redmau5
    Which bit is "utter bullshit"? Either deal with the debate or don't. Your organisation defends the Orange Order's "right" to march. Read 'Northern Ireland: Towards Division Not Peace ' by Peter Hadden for the typical anti-Catholic sectarian nature of this Unionist bigot.
    You made the assertion about "defending the Orange Order" without providing any evidence for fuck's sake, so don't demand I respond when you haven't even put forward an argument in the first place. I've read Towards Division Not Peace, and you've merely read it through your ultra-Green spectacles.

    Exactly. Because they're backwards. There is no point in economism because it isn't going to work anyway. After 30 or so years, Militant/Socialist Party have been unable to attract any sort of support amongst Protestant workers despite their blatant economist, anti-unification positions and association with Loyalist paramilitaries.
    I've been able to put up posters in protestant areas. How comfortable would you be with doing that? Could any republican group do that?

    Why? Socialism will not work in Ireland until Loyalism is neutralised. Backwards sections of the population have to be dragged forward, it is amazing that the proponents of Red Terror in Russia under the bould Leon do not propose such solutions in Ireland. Protestants will never support a united Ireland because to do so is to unseat their relative privledged advantage over Catholics. Likewise with Israelis and Palestinians. They are part of the problem, not the solution.
    How do you propose we "neutralise" loyalism? Just execute them? Exile them? I can see where you're coming from though, because I often look over at the protestant mansions on the Shankill while I'm in my hovel[sarcasm]

    During the war when the armed thugs of the British state were murdering Irish children, was the nation a distraction of the task at hand? The whole concept of workers having no borders has been proved redundant by revolutionary history.
    MMMMM, nationalism!

    The Workers' Party, Socialist Party, Communist Party, and Socialist Workers Party have been persuing this failed fantasy for years and years. Why has it not worked?
    Well, what exactly do you prescribe to?
  16. Jorge Miguel
    You made the assertion about "defending the Orange Order" without providing any evidence for fuck's sake, so don't demand I respond when you haven't even put forward an argument in the first place. I've read Towards Division Not Peace, and you've merely read it through your ultra-Green spectacles.
    It's in that particular book. The SP have also defended the "right" of the Orange Order to march in the pages of their paper.

    I've been able to put up posters in protestant areas. How comfortable would you be with doing that? Could any republican group do that?
    Yeah and what has it achieved? The SP is still a tiny organisation, yet those with "ultra-Green spectacles" actually have some sort of credible organisation in working class areas vis-a-vis the IRSP. Although I have my own differences with the IRSP, they have a strong base in the working class. The fact that Republican groups seamingly cannot put up posters in Loyalist areas is indication of the backward nature of Protestants, who are not going to accept Irish unity. Members of the Workers' Party were threatened when reaching out to these Loyalist backward inbreds and likewise, even members of the Communist Party were threatened when selling Unity in Rathcoole. The UVF published a list "enemies of Ulster", which even incldued the CPI and CPI (ML), no mention of the Militant though. Wonder why.

    How do you propose we "neutralise" loyalism? Just execute them? Exile them?
    Maybe we should correctly apply Leon Trotsky's method of dealing with reactionaries.

    MMMMM, nationalism!
    yeah, Irish kids getting murdered by Brit soldiers is no big deal, theres was no point to armed resistance because it was "individual terrorism" (it wasn't - the SP should read Trotsky). Ah I forgot, those "poor soldiers" are just "workers in uniform".

    Well, what exactly do you prescribe to?
    Irrelevent to the issue at hand. Why has economism and gas and water socialism in the tradition of William Walker always been a failure in Ireland?
  17. Gravedigger01
    Gravedigger01
    I'de say Socialist Party.
  18. The Deepest Red
    The Deepest Red
    If the SP follow the same flavour of 'socialism' as the PUP, i have to say i'm surprised.
    The PUP aren't socialists, they're fascists: the political mouthpiece of one of the most brutal terrorist organisations in Western Europe. The Socialist Party is nowhere near them politically (I would hope ).
  19. Dr Mindbender
    The PUP aren't socialists, they're fascists: the political mouthpiece of one of the most brutal terrorist organisations in Western Europe. The Socialist Party is nowhere near them politically (I would hope ).
    Thats why i used parenthesis.

    Although i doubt the PUP would agree that they're fascists. I think they are confused.
  20. Jolly Red Giant
    Jolly Red Giant
    It still astonishes me after nearly three decades of political activity that the 'republican' left still are incapable of even remotely understanding the position of the SP/CWI on the North - must be all the green tints in the glasses.
  21. Woyzeck
    Woyzeck
    It still astonishes me after nearly three decades of political activity that the 'republican' left still are incapable of even remotely understanding the position of the SP/CWI on the North - must be all the green tints in the glasses.
    More like the opportunistic horse blinkers on CWI.
  22. Andropov
    Andropov
    It still astonishes me after nearly three decades of political activity that the 'republican' left still are incapable of even remotely understanding the position of the SP/CWI on the North - must be all the green tints in the glasses.
    Ohh no we understand perfectly.
  23. Dr Mindbender
    the backward nature of Protestants
    these Loyalist backward inbreds
    What the fuck sort of anti worker shit is this?

    So they have a union jack attached to the front of their house, i guess thats why they're inbred retards in much the same way that white english voters vote BNP, rather in the way that the damn wooly liberal intelligentsia would have us believe its due to their own sense of alienation at the establishment.


    Get a fucking grip. Coming from a unionist area myself, this is a little too close to home for my liking.
  24. Jolly Red Giant
    Jolly Red Giant
    What the fuck sort of anti worker shit is this?
    It's a logical extension of left republicanism.
  25. Andropov
    Andropov
    It's a logical extension of left republicanism.
    No its not.
  26. Cork Socialist
    Cork Socialist
    IMO the problem with the north is that if Republican socialists and Loyalists who are dividing the working classes, if there is to be peace and unity in the north it must come through a joint movement of Protestant and Catholic working class people.
  27. Andropov
    Andropov
    IMO the problem with the north is that if Republican socialists and Loyalists who are dividing the working classes, if there is to be peace and unity in the north it must come through a joint movement of Protestant and Catholic working class people.
    Your actually an idiot.
    Republican Socialists and Loyalists are dividing the working class?
    Any credible leftist that has studied the Irish context will tell you Sectarianism is a British construct, the same tactic employed by the Brits in its other colonies of dividing and ruling. Favouring one section of the working class over the other and making sure that faction attachs its wagon to its horse.
    Sectarianism was not created by Loyalists or Republicans, least of all Republican Socialists.
    Typical SP drivel, blame the big bad Republicans and equate them to Loyalists just as the Bourgeois press does.
    Open a book and educate yourself before jumping to such ridiculous assertions, no doubt you were spoonfed this by your Loyalist sympathising degenerates.
  28. Cork Socialist
    Cork Socialist
    No I wasn't I'm from the North, My Parents are from the north. Ive Lived in the North, Its simply an observation, Also meant to say republicans in general more than Republican Socialists.
  29. Andropov
    Andropov
    No I wasn't I'm from the North, My Parents are from the north. Ive Lived in the North, Its simply an observation, Also meant to say republicans in general more than Republican Socialists.
    Irrelevant where you are from, its an innacurate observation from a Marxist persective.
    Even though you are a trot you should read Marx's and Lenin's writings on Ireland instead of jumping to ridiculous conclusions.
  30. Jolly Red Giant
    Jolly Red Giant
    Irrelevant where you are from, its an innacurate observation from a Marxist persective.
    With all due respect your observations of sectarianism are inaccurate - you conclude that because the Protestant working class have been 'bought off' they have nothing but a reactionary role to play in society. This is utter claptrap. Repeatedly throughout the history of the North working class unity has emerged during the course of the class struggle and repeatedly republicans and loyalists have used sectarianism to derail it.

    Sectarianism is a construct of British Imperialism designed specifically in the latter part of the nineteenth century and (most particularly) in the first decades of the twentieth century to divide the workers movement - which they succeeded in doing. However, British Imperialism is no longer able to control sectarianism, no longer able to turn it on and off like a tap - and as a result it not longer plays a constructive role from the perspective of Imperialism. Furthermore sectarianism is not confined to one side of the divide - it is manifest in both communities and used by elements in both communities to maintain a political and economic power-base. It can only be defeated by united class action emerging from a united working class movement that has been built on class issues. Republicanism (be it right-wing or left-wing) has no concept of this or how to achieve it.

    Even though you are a trot you should read Marx's and Lenin's writings on Ireland instead of jumping to ridiculous conclusions.
    And I would suggest that the next time you go to read Marx and Lenin that you take off the green-tinted glasses and make an effort to understand the social processes they were analysing, the conclusions they were drawing - and most importantly - why they were drawing those conclusions and what implicatiosn they have for the class movements of today.
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