The best method to learn dialectics

  1. Led Zeppelin
    Led Zeppelin
    There's no way in hell that I'm reading Dialectics of Nature, and to be honest I'm not really interested in reading other works specifically about dialectics either.

    I prefer reading works which show how the dialectical method of analysis works in practice, which is, in my opinion, the best way to learn how to use that method yourself, especially given the abstract and contested nature of "dialectical materialism" as a method of analysis (ask 10 people what dialectics is and you'll get 10 answers).

    So for example I prefer reading State and Revolution, Capital, History of the Russian Revolution etc. to learn how dialectical reasoning is used.

    I think most people who want to participate in this study group disagree with me on that (see Hiero's post) and are interested in specifically reading about dialectics itself, so I won't be taking part in it.
  2. Random Precision
    Chill out, LZ. One of the books suggested (and the one I suspect will win any poll) is Anti-Duhring, which devotes many pages to show the dialectic in practice outside of the two chapters devoted to it.

    Besides, I still don't see why it's wrong to take a bit of time to get us on the same footing as far as DM is concerned. Some who have joined the group, and I suspect many who will join, do so for the express purpose of learning what the dialectical method is. For obvious reasons this is sometimes hard to do on RevLeft. Besides, all works on the dialectic by their very nature have to show what it is in practice, this is true for Engels as well as Lukacs. But if you don't want to take part, I suppose it's your choice.
  3. Led Zeppelin
    Led Zeppelin
    I wasn't trying to come over as hostile or anything, I said I wouldn't take part in it because I seriously have no interest at all in reading books that are specifically written about dialectics.

    And it's not true that all works on dialectics show what it is in practice. Things that are specifically written about dialectics are mostly written from the subjective perspective of that person. So to them dialectics is such and such, while to others it is something else, if anything this would be more confusing. I don't care what dialectics is to a person, I only care what use it has for me as a Marxist. And as I said before, the best way to learn that is, in my opinion, to read works that are written using the dialectical method itself.

    At least for me that's the best way, and I intend to stick to it. Not saying that anyone else should.
  4. Random Precision
    Why don't you propose some works that you see as applying the dialectic, and we can include one or more of them in the poll, instead of just writing off the study group right now? Most people in our group haven't posted yet, they might agree with you. I know I agree partly with what you are saying, I just have a different set of priorities.
  5. Led Zeppelin
    Led Zeppelin
    Why don't you propose some works that you see as applying the dialectic, and we can include one or more of them in the poll, instead of just writing off the study group right now?
    If I were to propose some works, I'd propose books like State and Rev and Capital, but I don't want to read books in a study-group because I prefer reading them by myself on my own terms. I was simply voicing my opinion on what I believe the best way is to learn how to use the dialectical method.

    Also, as a sidenote, I've read Lukacs' History of Class-Consciousness, in my opinion it was horrible. I liked Plekhanov's Essays on the History of Materialism and The Development of the Monist View of History (In Defense of Materialism) a lot better. Actually, the latter is probably the best book I've read regarding dialectics (even though it's not specifically about dialectics, it explains how dialectial reasoning was key in advancing materialism to its next stage of development).
  6. Random Precision
    OK, so LZ is being a complete buzzkill. That aside, we need more votes if we're going to get this thing going!
  7. PRC-UTE
    PRC-UTE
    If I were to propose some works, I'd propose books like State and Rev and Capital, but I don't want to read books in a study-group because I prefer reading them by myself on my own terms.
  8. Led Zeppelin
    Led Zeppelin
    What's so funny about not wanting to be forced to read a book within a certain time-limit because a few other people preferred reading it, only to have to discuss a book which you didn't really want to read in the first place?

    You want a study-group? Fine, then start reading Crime And Punishment because I'm almost done with it, then we'll have a nice conversation about it. Oh what's that? You don't want to read it because you'd rather read something else right now? Damn, I guess I gotta post: "" and make fun of you!

    Anyway, I did not intend to be a buzzkill to your study-group, I merely wanted to voice my opinion on the best way to learn dialectics. I am not interested in participating in any study-groups right now, in fact I stopped participating in one real life study-group not too long ago.

    I'll split the posts regarding that (and any other off-topic posts related to it) to a new thread in this forum with the subject of "The best method to learn dialectics".
  9. Random Precision
    Also, as a sidenote, I've read Lukacs' History of Class-Consciousness, in my opinion it was horrible.
    May I ask why? Now that I'm getting into it, I think it's exactly what we should be looking for when you ask us to study texts that apply dialectics as opposed to just explaining them. Lukacs does this to the nature of capitalism quite well I think.
  10. Hit The North
    Hit The North
    I agree. What is Orthodox Marxism is quite an accessible read and perfect for our needs.
  11. Hit The North
    Hit The North
    BTW, has anyone noticed the massive interest in the Anti-dialectic forum?

    So far there's a total of nine posts - and eight of them are by Rosa!
  12. Philosophical Materialist
    Philosophical Materialist
    Bertell Ollman's 'Dance of the Dialectic' is very useful for the purposes you want. He spends a great deal of time discussing Marx's method and how it is applied in Capital.

    There are some preview chapters of his book available online, just a goggle search away.
  13. KC
    Bertell Ollman's 'Dance of the Dialectic' is very useful for the purposes you want. He spends a great deal of time discussing Marx's method and how it is applied in Capital.
    As is his book Alienation: Marx's Conception of Man in Capitalist Society, which I'm currently reading.
  14. Widerstand
    I was wondering too, is there any practical way to learn dialectics? I've read a variety of introduction texts and such from marxists.org, but I can't seem to make sense of it. I mean, I have a somewhat sound understanding of it's definition and basic principles, but it would be a stretch to say I can apply dialectics to analysis or anything.

    For example, suppose I have a thesis - how do I know what it's negation is? This is easy when I look at the commonly used example of "being", where the negation is simply "not-being", but when I look at anything else it becomes really unclear and vague. It get's even worse when supposed to find a synthesis. What to do?