Dialectics Watch -- thread one

  1. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    Post here any comments you have to make about the inane things we already know that our mystical friends are going to say in their safe little cubby-hole.
  2. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    Here's one for starters:

    Heh. It will be as if she is screaming against a brick wall.
    This one was in response to:

    (But for the record, Rosa has vowed to ruthlessly tear apart all of our statements in this group either by herself on the Philosophy Forum, or with her cohorts on an "anti-dialectics" group. So if you're afraid of that happening, please leave. )
    http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...31&postcount=6

    CriticiseSomethingsSometimes is notorious for not being able to take me on, so he waits until he is under mumsies skirts to have a dig at me.
  3. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    One of Bob The Builder's more profound contributions to 'dialectics':

    BTW, has anyone noticed the massive interest in the Anti-dialectic forum?

    So far there's a total of nine posts - and eight of them are by Rosa!
    http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...0&postcount=11

    No one doubted that the mystics would garner more interest than us critics; after all, the ruling ideas are always those of the ruling-class...
  4. Decolonize The Left
    Decolonize The Left
    Has anyone noted the massive interest in the Dialectical Materialist forum?

    They only have 9 threads, three of which were started by Random Precision!

    Wait... three is the square root of nine... so... dialectically speaking, we could have ourselves some sort of continuum whereby the amount of threads continually re-creates itself in an "eternal cycle in which matter moves, a cycle that certainly only completes its orbit in periods of time for which our terrestrial year is no adequate measure, a cycle in which the time of highest development, the time of organic life and still more that of the life of being conscious of nature and of themselves, is just as narrowly restricted as the space in which life and self-consciousness come into operation. A cycle in which every finite mode of existence of matter, whether it be sun or nebular vapour, single animal or genus of animals, chemical combination or dissociation, is equally transient, and wherein nothing is eternal but eternally changing, eternally moving matter and the laws according to which it moves and changes."



    - August
  5. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    Well, after much um-ing and ah-ing, the mystics have finally decided to study Rosa L's classic 'Reform or Revolution':

    http://www.revleft.com/vb/study-grou...685/index.html

    Which is a bit odd since Rosa hardly mentions this 'theory', and certainly adds nothing new to it.

    Anyway, if this 'debate' is as thorough as the last one they had, it will be over in a few posts.

    http://www.revleft.com/vb/study-grou...337/index.html
  6. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    Ok, discussion has finally got underway. RP has summarisd this classic work very weel, but when he came across one of the few references to the alleged 'contradictions' in capitalism, all he says is this:

    Either scientific socialism is correct, and the socialist transformation is the consequence of the internal contradictions of capitalism that will result in its collapse; or Bernstein’s “means of adaptation” will save the capitalist system, and enable it to suppress its own contradictions. In that case, socialism has ceased to become a historic necessity. In turn, if socialism is not a historical necessity, it becomes an unattainable utopia- either that or socialism is not a utopia, and the theory of “means of adaptation” is false. This is the controversy in a nutshell.
    http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...24&postcount=2

    No attempt is made -- as per usual -- to explain why these are 'contradictions' to begin with. So, it looks like we might have to wait another 150 years before we are told.

    All that PRC-UTE has to say in response is:

    right, so the contradiction/s at the heart of capitalism is laid out here. so if one rejects the theory of dialectics and its component analysis of unresolvable systemic contradictions that can only end when the proletariat takes over as a class, it is a shift closer to an inherently reformist position.
    http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...70&postcount=3

    Still no endeavour to tell us what these mysterious beings are, or why they are called 'contradictions'.

    Or why there have been vastly more dialecticians who have openly embraced reformism than there are those who have opted for revolution -- namely the Stalinists and the Maoists.

    So, as suspected, this is not an attempt to dicuss 'the dialectic', but merely an exercise in repackaging dogma.

    Prayers next, I guess.
  7. ÑóẊîöʼn
    ÑóẊîöʼn
    right, so the contradiction/s at the heart of capitalism is laid out here. so if one rejects the theory of dialectics and its component analysis of unresolvable systemic contradictions that can only end when the proletariat takes over as a class, it is a shift closer to an inherently reformist position.
    Wha'? Are they saying that rejecting dialectics makes one a reformist?
  8. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    Yes, they almost invariably say that -- or that it turns one into an anti-socialist, ruling-class apologist. BTB, for example, often makes this claim, and ignores any evidence to the contrary.

    Living is a dream world or what, eh?
  9. Black Sheep
    Rosa you once said that 'using DM one can come to any conclusion he/she wants'.
    Can you give me an example?
  10. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    My claim is based on two factors, the first is logical and the second is historic (but these inter-weave with one another).

    The logical aspect is that from a contradiction, anything follows.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    However, I prefer to illustrate this feature of dialectics with examples, since the above principle is rather technical.

    There are several of these detailed at my site, but here is a complex set of these (taken from Essay Nine Part Two):

    DM/'Materialist Dialectics' was used by the Stalinised Bolshevik Party (after Lenin's death) to justify the imposition of an undemocratic (if not an openly anti-democratic and terror-based) structure on both the Communist Party and the population of the former USSR (and later elsewhere).

    The catastrophic effect of this hardly needs underlining.

    This new and vicious form of the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' was justified by Stalin on the grounds that, since Marxist theory sees everything as 'contradictory', intensified central control was compatible with greater democratic freedom. The "withering-away of the state" was in fact confirmed by moves in the opposite direction: ever-growing centralised power. So, paradoxically, less democracy was in fact more democracy!

    Indeed, that very contradiction illustrated the truth of dialectics!

    As Stalin himself put it:

    "It may be said that such a presentation of the question is 'contradictory.' But is there not the same 'contradictoriness' in our presentation of the question of the state? We stand for the withering away of the state. At the same time we stand for the strengthening of the dictatorship of the proletariat, which is the mightiest and strongest state power that has ever existed. The highest development of state power with the object of preparing the conditions for the withering away of state power -- such is the Marxist formula. Is this 'contradictory'? Yes, it is 'contradictory.' But this contradiction us bound up with life, and it fully reflects Marx's dialectics." [Political Report of the Central Committee to the Sixteenth Congress of the CPSU(B), June 27,1930. Bold emphasis added; quotation marks altered to conform to the conventions adopted here.]
    And he went on to add this rather ominous note:

    "Anyone who fails to understand this peculiar feature and 'contradiction' of our transition period, anyone who fails to understand these dialectics of the historical processes, is dead as far as Marxism is concerned.

    "The misfortune of our deviators is that they do not understand, and do not wish to understand, Marx's dialectics." [Ibid. Bold emphases added. Quotation marks altered to conform to the conventions adopted here.]
    As many prominent comrades were later to find out, Stalin was not joking when he said this.

    Indeed, this too was part of Stalin's justification of his line on the National Question, and he specifically linked these two issues in the previous quotation. About this, he then commented:

    "Lenin sometimes depicted the thesis on national self-determination in the guise of the simple formula: "disunion for union". Think of it -- disunion for union. It even sounds like a paradox. And yet, this 'contradictory' formula reflects that living truth of Marx's dialectics which enables the Bolsheviks to capture the most impregnable fortresses in the sphere of the national question." [Ibid. Bold emphasis added.]
    This allowed Stalin to claim that the merging of all national cultures (in the former USSR) into one was at the same time to show respect for, and to preserve their differences! I am sure the Chechens and the Cossacks could see his point.

    Earlier he had argued as follows (against Trotsky's demand for "inner party democracy"):

    "Consequently, we have here recognition of freedom for factional groupings in the Party right up to permitting political parties in the land of the dictatorship of the proletariat, disguised by phrases about 'inner party democracy', about 'improving the regime' in the Party. That freedom for factional squabbling of groups of intellectuals is not inner-party democracy, that the widely-developed self-criticism conducted by the Party and the colossal activity of the mass of the Party membership is real and genuine inner-party democracy -- Trotskyism cannot understand." [Ibid. Quotation marks altered to conform to the conventions adopted here.]
    Greater democracy from less democracy; all eminently contradictory, all quintessentially 'dialectical'.

    Moreover, it was possible to 'justify' the idea that socialism could be built in one country by, among other things, the dubious invention of 'internal' versus 'external' contradictions, later bolstered by an appeal to 'principal' and 'secondary' contradictions, along with the highly convenient idea that some contradictions were not 'antagonistic'. Hence, the obvious 'class differences' that soon emerged in the former USSR were in fact 'harmonious'; the real enemies (i.e., the source of all those nasty 'principal' contradictions) were the external, imperialist powers.

    As Stalin argued:

    "If the possibility of victory of socialism in a single country means the possibility of solving the internal contradictions which can be completely overcome in a single country (we are of course thinking about our own country), the possibility of the definitive victory of socialism means the possibility to overcome the external contradictions between the country of socialism and the countries of capitalism, and these contradictions can only be overcome thanks to the victory of the proletarian revolution in a certain number of countries". [15th XVth conference of the CPSU. Quoted from here.]
    How 'contradictions' can be "overcome" is, of course, a deep mystery that we will have to pass over in silence.

    [STD = Stalinist Dialectician.]

    Nevertheless, a couple of generations later and STDs were still arguing the same line. Here is Cornforth:

    "In general, social contradictions are antagonistic when they involve conflicts of economic interest. In such cases one group imposes its own interests on another, and one group suppresses another by forcible methods. But when conflicts of economic interest are not involved, there is no antagonism and therefore no need for the forcible suppression of any group by any other. Once class antagonisms are done away with in socialist society, all social questions can be settled by discussion and argument, by criticism and self-criticism, by persuasion, conviction and agreement....

    "So Lenin remarked that 'antagonism and contradiction are utterly different. Under socialism antagonism disappears, but contradiction remains' (Critical Notes on Bukharin's 'Economics of the Transition Period')." [Cornforth (1974), pp.105-06.]
    Hence, under 'socialism' strikes were unnecessary; in which case they should not happen and must be suppressed --, and so they were, with a level of violence rarely seen anywhere outside of openly fascist states.

    Any attempts made by workers to rebel (e.g., Hungary 1956) were blamed on "external forces", or agents outside the working class (a familiar excuse used by ruling classes the world over to account for, and thus ignore, the significance of strikes and riots -- all caused, of course, by the ubiquitous "external agitator"), i.e., in this case, the "imperialist powers", "fascists", or even Tito (but not ordinary workers fighting for and on behalf of their own interests), once more.

    We will merely note, with Cornforth, the calm way that the non-antagonistic 'contradictions' in Hungary (in 1956) were resolved by Russian tanks (i.e., using "discussion and argument...persuasion, conviction and agreement").

    To be sure, howsoever hard one tries, it is difficult not to be "persuaded" by an armoured column....

    And this is where DM came into its own: lunatic policies sold to party cadres (world-wide) by the use of dialectics, a 'method' that allows the justification of anything and its opposite, often in the same breath. And they are still being peddled to us on the same basis. Trotskyists, of course, argue the exact opposite, using equally 'dialectical' arguments to show how and why the revolution decayed. [On this, see below.]

    Dialectics can thus be used to defend and rationalise anything you like.

    Indeed, Stalinism and Trotskyism (rightly or wrongly) parted company largely because of their differing views on internationalism. Of course, this rift wasn't just about ideas! Hard-headed decisions were taken for political reasons, but in order to rationalise them, and sell them to the international communist movement, they were liberally coated in dialectical jargon.

    Those who know the history of Bolshevism will also know of the incalculable damage this deep rift has inflicted on Marxism world-wide ever since.

    Later, 'Materialist Dialectics' was used to justify/rationalise the catastrophic and reckless class-collaborationist tactics imposed on both the Chinese and Spanish revolutions, just as they were employed to rationalise/justify the ultra-left, "social fascist" post-1929 about-turn. This crippled the fight against the Nazis by suicidally splitting the left in Germany, pitting communist against socialist, while Hitler laughed all the way into power.

    This 'theory' then helped excuse the rotation of the Communist Party through another 180 degrees in its next class-collaborationist phase, the "Popular Front" --, and then through another 180 (in order to 'justify' the unforgivable Hitler-Stalin pact) as part of the newly re-discovered 'revolutionary defeatist' stage --, and through yet another 180 two years later in the shape of 'The Great Patriotic War', following upon Hitler's predictable invasion of the "Mother Land" -- "Holy Russia".

    In attempting to justify these overnight about-turns, and specifically the criminal Nazi-Soviet non-aggression pact of 1939, all that Ragani Palme Dutt, for example, could say was:

    "We are told that the Soviet-German pact has also strengthened Nazi Germany. The process is of course dialectical, but fundamentally Nazi Germany has been weakened by the Soviet-German Non-Aggression Pact and is more weakened every day as this [dialectical -- RL] process is continuing and is beginning to become clearer to more and more people." [King and Mathews (1990), p.75. Bold emphasis added.]
    Once more, it seems that to strengthen the Nazis dialectically is to weaken them! We can see how accurate that analysis was by the fact that the dialectically "weakened" Wehremacht was able to conquer most of Europe within two years, and large sections of the former USSR in six months! It was only Hitler's incompetent general-ship that saved the USSR from annihilation.

    More dialectical 'contradictions' --, more dead workers.

    Do you begin to see a pattern here...?
    More details, refernces and links can be found here:

    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/page%2009_02.htm

    Use the 'Quick Links' to go to relevant section, which is is 'Case Studies'

    Hope this helps!
  11. Black Sheep
    About the wiki example.The use of that fucks the thing all over.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disjunction_introduction

    As Stalin himself put it:
    And he went on to add this rather ominous note:
    These are kinda barking mad.

    Although i can see from a foggy distance his point.. i think.
    Strengthen the state,but also wither it away..Wth? Aren't the opposites contradictions supposed to be expressed by different 'individuals', or groups, etc.

    And this whole thing seems like a very dangerous messing around with dangerous unstable chemicals.

    "Lenin sometimes depicted the thesis on national self-determination in the guise of the simple formula: "disunion for union". Think of it -- disunion for union. It even sounds like a paradox. And yet, this 'contradictory' formula reflects that living truth of Marx's dialectics which enables the Bolsheviks to capture the most impregnable fortresses in the sphere of the national question." [Ibid. Bold emphasis added.]
    Is this an argument?

    Consequently, we have here[...]Trotskyism cannot understand.
    Well,ignoring the last period of religious like arrogance, i do not think that this has something to do with DM,but with democratic centralism.I had posted a thread about my concerns about it months ago.anyway moving on.

    In general, social contradictions are antagonistic when they involve conflicts of economic interest.
    I think he/she has a point...If the economic matter is resolved (socialist mode of prod) then the contradictions within the state would be for courses of action,management,etc.. so the question is whether there are conflicts of economic interest,ie whether the society implements a socialist mode of production and management.

    In such cases one group imposes its own interests on another, and one group suppresses another by forcible methods.
    -> class system,isnt that right?

    "So Lenin remarked that 'antagonism and contradiction are utterly different. Under socialism antagonism disappears, but contradiction remains'
    I dont see why this is false.Not concerning the USSR (which you can argue of whether it was democratically run) but in general.
    And this is where DM came into its own: lunatic policies sold to party cadres (world-wide) by the use of dialectics, a 'method' that allows the justification of anything and its opposite, often in the same breath. And they are still being peddled to us on the same basis.
    Yeah that seems barking mad.

    It hurts my head trying to understand that way of thinking."We want to achieve X, thus we have to strengthen !X as well, and while it would seem than X is weakened diallectically it is not".
  12. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    BS:

    i do not think that this has something to do with DM,but with democratic centralism.I had posted a thread about my concerns about it months ago.anyway moving on.
    The point is that dialectics is usd to try to justify this sort of stuff, simply because it can be used to 'justify' anything.

    I think he/she has a point...If the economic matter is resolved (socialist mode of prod) then the contradictions within the state would be for courses of action,management,etc.. so the question is whether there are conflicts of economic interest,ie whether the society implements a socialist mode of production and management.
    But, the things they refer to aren't even contradictions!
  13. Black Sheep
    But, the things they refer to aren't even contradictions!
    Yeah,they could be views as differences of opinion.
  14. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    Since this group was set up to criticise the mystics over at the 'Dialectical Materialism' coven, who seem to post one comment every two weeks (one liners mainly), this group is covered in cobwebs, too!

    I'll try to stir things up in the Philosophy section again in the next few weeks, where there is far more 'dialectical mayhem' going on, by posting some controversial material that never fails to rouse the enemy.
  15. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    Marmot has opened a critical thread over at the Coven:

    http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?...cussionid=1635

    In response, PRC has replied as follows:

    it doesn't matter if we use the same jargon as Marx or invent our own. the point is that dialectics demonstrate why capitalism will fall, due to its own contradictions. that's what I find useful about it.

    I think we can verify that the idea of a contradiction in capitalism leads to its decline by examining the move of industry from most first world nations to less developed ones, because the cost of paying for a first world proletariat is too much in this period. anyway, that's an example of a contradiction- the tendency for the rate of profit to fall.
    The problem is, this theory needs these Hegelian concepts (and not just the words), or it cannot account for change, as Lenin noted:

    "Nowadays, the ideas of development…as formulated by Marx and Engels on the basis of Hegel…[encompass a process] that seemingly repeats the stages already passed, but repeats them otherwise, on a higher basis ('negation of negation'), a development, so to speak, in spirals, not in a straight line; -- a development by leaps, catastrophes, revolutions; -- 'breaks in continuity'; the transformation of quantity into quality; -- the inner impulses to development, imparted by the contradiction and conflict of the various forces and tendencies acting on a given body, or within a given phenomenon, or within a given society; -- the interdependence and the closest, indissoluble connection of all sides of every phenomenon…, a connection that provides a uniform, law-governed, universal process of motion -– such are some of the features of dialectics as a richer (than the ordinary) doctrine of development." [Lenin (1914), pp.12-13.]
    Even then, as I have shown, this theory can't account for change:

    http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...4&postcount=23

    http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...5&postcount=24

    all that rubbish about applying dialectics to nature and physics, I don't see the value in it.
    Careful, this will have the thought-police accuse you of 'Revisionism' and of 'abandoning the dialectic'.

    This is quite apart from the fact that this line is untenable anyway, since it suggests that humanity is not part of nature.
  16. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    Cummanach:

    I just think dialectical thought is already a part of natural science and physics. even during marx's lifetime he saw darwin's new theory as a dialectical approach/solution but he must have been well aware that darwin didn't present it as a result of DiaMat. I think marx saw the univerality of the meta-structure of an analysis like darwinism, whereas Darwin was not aware or interested in that, like scientists in general and didn't have any reason to point it out or emphasize it.
    Well, we have yet to see the proof that 'dialectics' is part of science. Despite being asked to explain how it is, dialecticians still refuse to say. One can only speculate as to why...

    Moreover, Marx later became quite dissillusioned with Darwin. Here is how Steven Jay Gould expresses this (in an article about Victorian biologist Ray Lankester, who attended Marx's funeral):

    "If Lankester showed so little affinity for Marx's worldview, perhaps we should try the opposite route and ask if Marx had any intellectual or philosophical reason to seek Lankester's company. Again, after debunking some persistent mythology, we can find no evident basis for their friendship.

    "The mythology centres upon a notorious, if understandable, scholarly error that once suggested far more affinity between Marx and Darwin (or at least a one-way hero worshiping of Darwin by Marx) than corrected evidence can validate. Marx did admire Darwin, and he did send an autographed copy of Das Kapital to the great naturalist; Darwin, in the only recorded contact between the two men, sent a short, polite, and basically contentless letter of thanks. We do know that Darwin (who read German poorly and professed little interest in political science) never spent much time with Marx's magnum opus. All but the first 105 pages in Darwin's copy of Marx's 822-page book remain uncut (as does the table of contents), and Darwin, contrary to his custom when reading books carefully, made no marginal annotations. In fact, we have no evidence that Darwin ever read a word of Das Kapital.

    "The legend of greater contact began with one of the few errors ever made by one of the finest scholars of this, or any other, century -- Isaiah Berlin, in his 1939 biography of Marx. Based on a dubious inference from Darwin's short letter of thanks to Marx, Berlin concluded that Marx had offered to dedicate volume 2 of Kapital to Darwin and that Darwin had politely refused.

    "This tale of Marx's proffered dedication then gained credence when a second letter, ostensibly from Darwin to Marx but addressed only to 'Dear Sir,' turned up among Marx's papers in the International Institute of Social History in Amsterdam. This letter, written on October 13, 1880, does politely decline a suggested dedication: 'I Shd. prefer the Part or Volume not be dedicated to me (though I thank you for the intended honour) as it implies to a certain extent my approval of the general publication, about which I know nothing.' This second find seemed to seal Isaiah Berlin's case, and the story achieved general currency....

    "To shorten a long story, two scholars, working independently and simultaneously in the mid-1970s, discovered the almost comical basis of the error (see Margaret A. Fay, 'Did Marx offer to dedicate Capital to Darwin?' Journal of the History of Ideas 39, 1978, and Lewis S. Feuer, 'Is the "Darwin-Marx correspondence" authentic?' Annals of Science 32, 1975). Marx's daughter Eleanor became the common-law wife of the British socialist Edward Aveling. The couple safeguarded Marx's papers for several years, and the 1880 letter, evidently sent by Darwin to Aveling himself, must have strayed into the Marxian collection.

    "Aveling belonged to a group of radical atheists. He sought Darwin's official approval, and status as dedicatee, for a volume he had edited on Darwin's work and his (that is, Aveling's, not necessarily Darwin's) view of its broader social meaning (published in 1881 as The Student's Darwin, volume 2 in the International Library of Science and Free-thought). Darwin, who understood Aveling's opportunism and cared little for his antireligious militancy, refused with his customary politeness but with no lack of firmness. Darwin ended his letter to Aveling (and not to Marx, who did not treat religion as a primary subject in Das Kapital) by writing:

    "'It appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the public; and freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds which follows from the advance of science. It has, therefore, been always my object to avoid writing on religion, and I have confined myself to science.'
    "Nonetheless, despite this correction, Marx might still have regarded himself as a disciple of Darwin and might have sought the company of a key Darwinian in the younger generation -- a position rendered more plausible by Engels's famous comparison (quoted earlier) in his funerary oration. But this interpretation must also be rejected. Engels maintained far more interest in the natural sciences than Marx ever did (as best expressed in two books, Anti-Dühring and Dialectics of Nature). Marx, as stated above, certainly admired Darwin as a liberator of knowledge from social prejudice and as a useful ally, at least by analogy. In a famous letter of 1869, Marx wrote to Engels about Darwin's Origin of Species: 'Although it is developed in the crude English style, this is the book which contains the basis in natural history for our view.'

    But Marx also criticized the social biases in Darwin's formulation, again writing to Engels, and with keen insight:

    "'It is remarkable how Darwin recognizes among beasts and plants his English society with its division pf labour, competition, opening up of new markets, invention and the Malthusian 'struggle for existence.' It is Hobbes's bellum omnium contra omnes [the war of all against all].' [Marx to Engels, 18/06/1862.]
    "Marx remained a committed evolutionist, of course, but his interest in Darwin clearly diminished through the years. An extensive scholarly literature treats this subject, and I think that Margaret Fay speaks for a consensus when she writes (in her previously cited article):

    "'Marx...though he was initially excited by the publication of Darwin's Origin...developed a much more critical stance toward Darwinism, and in his private correspondence of the 1860s poked gentle fun at Darwin's ideological biases. Marx's Ethnological Notebooks, compiled circa 1879-81, in which Darwin is cited only once, provide no evidence that he reverted to his earlier enthusiasm.'"
    [Gould (2002c), pp.123-25. Spelling altered to conform to UK English.]
    It is rather odd, however, that Gould does not quote a letter Engels wrote which is far more negative in its opinions about Darwin:

    "1) Of the Darwinian doctrine I accept the theory of evolution, but Darwin's method of proof (struggle for life, natural selection) I consider only a first, provisional, imperfect expression of a newly discovered fact. Until Darwin's time the very people who now see everywhere only struggle for existence (Vogt, Büchner, Moleschott, etc.) emphasized precisely cooperation in organic nature, the fact that the vegetable kingdom supplies oxygen and nutriment to the animal kingdom and conversely the animal kingdom supplies plants with carbonic acid and manure, which was particularly stressed by Liebig. Both conceptions are justified within certain limits, but the one is as one-sided and narrow-minded as the other. The interaction of bodies in nature -- inanimate as well as animate -- includes both harmony and collision, struggle and cooperation. When therefore a self-styled natural scientist takes the liberty of reducing the whole of historical development with all its wealth and variety to the one-sided and meagre phrase 'struggle for existence,' a phrase which even in the sphere of nature can be accepted only cum grano salis [with a grain of salt -- RL], such a procedure really contains its own condemnation.

    "...I should therefore attack -- and perhaps will when the time comes -- these bourgeois Darwinists in about the following manner:

    "The whole Darwinists teaching of the struggle for existence is simply a transference from society to living nature of Hobbes's doctrine of bellum omnium contra omnes [from Hobbes's De Cive and Leviathan, chapter 13-14] and of the bourgeois-economic doctrine of competition together with Malthus's theory of population. When this conjurer's trick has been performed (and I questioned its absolute permissibility, as I have indicated in point 1, particularly as far as the Malthusian theory is concerned), the same theories are transferred back again from organic nature into history and it is now claimed that their validity as eternal laws of human society has been proved. The puerility of this procedure is so obvious that not a word need be said about it. But if I wanted to go into the matter more thoroughly I should do so by depicting them in the first place as bad economists and only in the second place as bad naturalists and philosophers.

    "4) The essential difference between human and animal society consists in the fact that animals at most collect while men produce. This sole but cardinal difference alone makes it impossible simply to transfer laws of animal societies to human societies....

    "At a certain stage the production of man attains such a high-level that not only necessaries but also luxuries, at first, true enough, only for a minority, are produced. The struggle for existence -- if we permit this category for the moment to be valid -- is thus transformed into a struggle for pleasures, no longer for mere means of subsistence but for means of development, socially produced means of development, and to this stage the categories derived from the animal kingdom are no longer applicable. But if, as has now happened, production in its capitalist form produces a far greater quantity of means of subsistence and development than capitalist society can consume because it keeps the great mass of real producers artificially away from these means of subsistence and development; if this society is forced by its own law of life constantly to increase this output which is already too big for it and therefore periodically, every 10 years, reaches the point where it destroys not only a mass of products but even productive forces -- what sense is their left in all this talk of 'struggle for existence'? The struggle for existence can then consist only in this: that the producing class takes over the management of production and distribution from the class that was hitherto entrusted with it but has now become incompetent to handle it, and there you have the socialist revolution.

    "...Even the mere contemplation of previous history as a series of class struggles suffices to make clear the utter shallowness of the conception of this history as a feeble variety of the 'struggle for existence.' I would therefore never do this favour to these false naturalists....

    "6) On the other hand I cannot agree with you that the 'bellum omnium contra omnes' was the first phase of human development. In my opinion, the social instinct was one of the most essential levers of the evolution of man from the ape. The first man must have lived in bands and as far as we can peer into the past we find that this was the case...." [Engels to Lavrov, 17/11/1875. Spelling altered to conform to UK English; formatting and quotation marks altered to conform to the conventions adopted here.]
    Which seems to me to get things about right.

    References and more details can be found here:

    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/page_13_03.htm
  17. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    BTB:

    If we look at the relationship between the means of production and the relations of production as a one-way causal relationship which prioritises the former you end up with technological determinism. If you prioritise the other way, you end up with voluntarism.

    A dialectical approach which seeks to study the inter-relations between both in their historically specific unfolding, avoids the pitfalls of the above and develops a more complex open-ended explanation.
    http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?...cussionid=1635

    Alas, we have yet to have it explained to us why we need 'dialectics' in the first place when Historical Materialism, ordinary language and a few scientific concepts thrown in for good measure will do the same job, only better.

    "Better" since, if dialectics were true, change would be impossible.
  18. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    Cummanach:

    what I'm saying is the various established theories came about as a result of an approach to problems, which you can call a dialectical approach. I mean Marx wasn't saying that without an explicit recognition and conception of dialectical thinking and methods, nothing is or was ever discovered and understood. He was just recognising that analysis of any aspect of the world succeeds when when the phenomena are viewed or analysed dialectically. So whether or not a physicist reads about the metaphysics of dialectics before he sits down to solve a problem or whether he simply sits down and works on it, in the end he will solve his problem when he thinks about it dialectically. Am I making sense? maybe not
    http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?...cussionid=1635

    Once more, these mystics keep saying this, but when it comes to specifics, or when they are put on the spot, we soon find them dropping the 'dialectics' and using ordinary language, and concepts drawn from HM and science, etc., to make sense of the world.

    And, we all know why that is: 'dialectics' mytsifies a process that is perfectly clear if HM is allowed to speak for itself.
  19. Hyacinth
    Hyacinth
    Alas, we have yet to have it explained to us why we need 'dialectics' in the first place when Historical Materialism, ordinary language and a few scientific concepts thrown in for good measure will do the same job, only better.

    "Better" since, if dialectics were true, change would be impossible.
    This is something that has always bewildered me; many of the so-called dialecticians more or less implicitly reject dialectics as it is, but they still cling to the jargon, which causes numerous confusions. And despite numerous requests to explain why historical materialism is inadequate—or why this watered down version of dialectics is anything but historical materialism in Hegelian trappings—no answer has been forthcoming.
  20. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    RP:

    It's about time I pitched in I suppose.

    I think a dialectical understanding gives us a better stance on theoretical questions. One that comes up all the time is whether the Bolsheviks were "authoritarian" when they took steps to centralize the Soviet republic and empower their own party. Many anarchists see this as a betrayal of the working class, and will go on and on about the "authoritarianism" of Leninists and Marxists in general.

    But a dialectical understanding of the Russian revolution teaches us to look at the other events in the same period, to take the event as a totality. Through this we can understand why the Bolsheviks decided it was necessary to centralize state power, and not descend into abstract moralism. The most valuable thing about dialectics for me is that it stresses the context of any event, action, person, etc. as primary in understanding it.
    http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?...cussionid=1635

    As we can see, there is nothing 'dialectical' in here, just a gesture at giving a 'dialectical explanation'.

    And this is typical; when asked, DM-fans have to use HM concepts and ordinary language to make themselves understood, even to one another.

    As soon as they throw second hand Hegelian jargon in, they lose their audience.

    So, RP leaves this jargon out, but still claims it is 'dialectical'.

    Too right; about as 'dialectical' as the UK Labour Party is socialist...

    Louise Michel has been asking now for the best part of a week for a concrete example of how dialectics is in any way useful to revolutionaries:

    http://www.revleft.com/vb/dialectics...184/index.html

    So far from the mystics: zippo.

    Others here have been asking them since I joined this board; still zippo.

    And yet these sad characters keep telling us it's their 'core theory'!

    No wonder I quote this in my signature:

    Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it
  21. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    Cummanach:

    it's a waste of time
    Ah, yet another intrepid mystic who can't defend his ideas against little old me.

    Next please...
  22. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    Now that the mystics have suspended/stopped their 'devastating' attacks on little old me, an eerie silence has descended once more on the Coven.

    Perhaps they realised they were drawing more attention to my ideas, and thus that silence was the better part of discretion?
  23. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    The eerie silence over at the Coven continues into another glorious non-dialectical month -- except for two very brief, and not very dialectical posts:

    http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?...cussionid=1162

    Looks like this 'vibrant' 'theory' is about as lively as this:

  24. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    Now, I know that I often allege that this Hermetic 'theory' (aka 'Dialectical Materialism') seriously slows down the brains of those it colonises, but I had no idea that the sad souls over at the Coven would confirm this assessment for me so readily.



    In this thread, on October 2nd 2008:

    http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?...cussionid=1162

    'New' member Diamat86 announced to the gathered congregation of novitiates that he was joining their happy-clappy band of worshippers.



    On the 10th of May 2009, a full seven months later, this most recent victim received a belated 'welcome' from another member of this esoteric band!

    Goodness knows what will happen if the revolution ever does break out -- this tardy band of Neoplatonic foot-draggers stand in real danger of manning the barricades several months after they have all been torn down!

  25. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    If the Coven stays inactive for much longer, we will be able to claim them as anti-dialectical allies -- by using that sad group as proof that not all things change all the time, since the number of comments those mystics have posted has remained the same for weeks.
  26. Hit The North
    Hit The North
    Still talking to yourself, I see.
  27. ZeroNowhere
    There are other people in this group, interestingly enough. It's just that Rosa writes enough for all of us.
  28. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    BTB (apologies, i have only just seen your comment):

    Still talking to yourself, I see.
    Well, even if that we true, it's one more person than you mystics are talking to.
  29. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    After deathly silence over at the Coven lasting well over two months, the mystics have opened the mausoleum and posted a comment of such stunning brilliance, I am almost tempted to abandon my anti-dialectical quest:

    http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?...cussionid=2311

    Read it and weep.
  30. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    After a long silence over at the Coven, and then a brief flury of activity attacking yours truly (again!), the Coven has descended into yet another dialectical silence.

    Except, several sad mystics have now decamped to the Philosophy section to have another go at little old me -- so why on earth did they set-up the 'Rosa watch' thread?

    http://www.revleft.com/vb/against-ma...15/index2.html

    The result, alas, has been no different: the mystics have received yet another dialectical drubbing:

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