Hi, don't know why I hadn't seen this message until now. I watched Reds many years ago. Haven't thought about it much recently. I should probably watch it again before I comment.
You ever seen the film 'Reds'? What do you think of it?
lol okay then. Much appreciated. Thought i'd better ask you rather than the ICC for reasons which im sure you understand.
Oooh, jeez. Can of worms much? I'll send you an email. This probably isn't the place.
Any idea why the ICC and ICT are separate groups?
If you press certain members (eg Dave B, who posts here an on LibCom), they think the SPGB was wrong in 1904, but right now (which is fine, the conditions may have matured between 1904 and 2014 - it's a perfectly reasonable position even though it's wrong). But if, as SPGBers seem to insist, consciousness comes from socialists not the working class's own struggle, then the foundation of the party is just a matter of intellectuals deciding, not a product of a high-point of class struggle. So it doesn't matter if the party is founded before the conditions for it exist. It's just some theory after all, no connection to class struggle.
I think they can't even see it, hence their insistence that we are the Leninists - see also Robbo's hysteria on the 'DotP' thread here. I've been aware for maybe 12 years that the SPGB's approach to consciousness is just... shit, but it's only recently that I think I've been able to pinpoint what's wrong with it. It does explain some very strange things about the SPGB though. They think the revolution in Russia was premeture, and yet their own foundation was on the basis that the world revolution was imminent in 1904.
It's quite disappointing, given that their definition of socialism is bang on, and they seem to be sincere revolutionaries. It seems that they are Leninists minus the two-stage theory. I cant believe that in over a century as existing as a party they haven't changed their position on this.
I certainly think that their view of class consciousness is idealistic. I can't remember if you were following the discussions on LibCom, but... much heat, very little light, and no recognition from the SPGBers that their position is both elitist and pedagogic... very (almost to the extent of caricature) 'Leninist' in fact, with its insistence that without the theoretical intervention of the socialist vanguard, the working class is incapable of advancing beyond trade union consciousness.
Yeah your right about that. However as I said before if the audience has some working class people who are interested in politics and discontented about their current situation without neccessarily having wholly subscribed to either nationalism or socialism then perhaps they can be 'brought round'. I guess it depends on who turns up. ---- Don't you think it would be useful to hear what particular arguments are used against nationalism? These arguments could be used by those who attend when discussing these questions in everyday life. ---- After hearing the SPGB in Brum and the arguments they made in favour of 'teaching' socialism and electing socialist MP's I'm kind of coming round to the view that their approach to class consciousness and revolution is based on idealism more than anything else.
