(cont. from last message) This is why I have some sympathy with people who drop atheism and become religious because they've seen some amazing waterfall, or whatever. To me, it seems like an utterly absurd reason to become religious. As an argument, it's a non-sequitur. But of course, it's not really an argument, it's merely an emotional reaction; rationalizing it comes later. My suspicion is that this is how most big changes proceed. So I often wonder why I bother debating. I'm often reminded of that quote. Of course, it's not really true: you can change people's minds - and you can change them in completely "non-rational" ways... for example, simply repeating an argument many times probably increases its plausibility to the reader. But the usual interpretation of debates, where I present my case and you present yours, and, by the power of evidence and reason, one of us might demonstrate the other is wrong... in my experience, that happens very rarely.
It happens very rarely in my experience. I think people often overestimate how persuasive the arguments they buy will seem to those with opposing views. When you're dealing with people who are more on the fence, and who acknowledge ignorance of the topic, they're more easily swayed - but when people have strong views on something, I'm very skeptical that rational argument ever has much of an impact. I recall my own conversion from hardcore free-market libertarianism: I'm sure it had much more to do with personal changes, changing values, changes in my living condition, etc, than any rational arguments. As far as I recall, I felt politically apathetic for quite some time... I had to find the arguments against capitalism, and arguments for leftism, after the change had already taken place. (cont)
I didn't want to make the gender thread go any more off-the-rails than it already has, but I don't really agree with that quote (regarding debates). If someone makes a very persuasive case to me that's contra to my own views, I will (and have in the past) revaluate my position on a certain topic.
