Deutsche Demokratische Republik

[Invincible Summer]

I'm curious - what are the Anarchist & Marxist views on the DDR?

It seems to me that it was more or less an expression of Soviet imperialism.

[ComradeOm]

It seems to me that it was more or less an expression of Soviet imperialism.Yes but not entirely. Superficially of course it was just another Warsaw Pact puppet/partner but look beyond and the picture is slightly more nuanced

Unfortunately I'm not particularly well read on the GDR itself but it is important to recognise that the East German government did have an intellectual heritage and history of its own. The state was of course established in the wake of the Red Army but many of its prominent politicians - such as Ulbricht, Honecker, and Pieck - had been members of the KPD during the 1918 revolution or years immediately following. So there was a considerable communist tradition already present and over the years the GDR proved to be far more loyal to Marxist-Leninist traditions than many of its neighbouring WP states. This is despite being the second most powerful, economically and militarily, COMECON state

And no discussion of the GDR would be complete without noting its excellent national anthem (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Eam_XScivh8)

[Red Robespierre]

The DDR was an exemplary model of socialism established in a society which had previously, despite the destruction of WW2, undergone substantial capitalist development.

The DDR was far more than a mere puppet state and such historical simplifications ignore the fact that the SED leadership (formerly KPD) demonstrated an immense independence, hence the many rows between the Ulbricht leadership and Khruschev and later Honecker and Gorbachev.

The Stasi was a phenomenon amongst international and domestic security/intelligence forces providing a model even the NKVD would have envied. The vast infiltration of Stasi agents into the BRD startled the bourgeois government of the West - culminating in the Guillaume affair where spies infiltrated the office of Chancellor Willy Brandt.

[Philosophical Materialist]

Hans Heinz Holz gives a Marxist analysis of the Warsaw Pact states in 'The Downfall and Future of Socialism'. I'll have to dig it out because I haven't read it in a while. You could google it as it may well have been put online.

In my own opinion I feel the DDR was a bureaucratic implementation of socialism, but one which was more successful than the other Soviet models. The DDR lacked the state parasitism of Poland and Romania, although it had to resort to massive Stasi surveillance to prevent overthrow by the West. Undoubtedly this infringed genuine socialist dissent along the way.

The DDR did have many achievements, such as a high standard of living, an excellent educational system, massive steps in equality for women (positive discrimination, free childcare). It is interesting to note that after reunification it was East German women who felt the largest drop in income and employment. It is little wonder that many working class Germans look back at the DDR with nostalgia (Ostalgie) and remember a time of jobs for life and protection from the turbulence of the capitalist market.

Not that I think the DDR was a perfect implementation of Marxism, but it was much more progressive than West Germany. It's a shame that the DDR is gone.

[Ligeia]

It is little wonder that many working class Germans look back at the DDR with nostalgia (Ostalgie) and remember a time of jobs for life and protection from the turbulence of the capitalist market.



It's true, nowadays there are a lot of studies about how much percentage of the East-german population liked the DDR,want it back,didn't like it, thought life was better, education...etc.etc.
So and there's still an amount of people there wanting the DDR system back, though it constantly changes from time to time and statewise it differs,too.
And note that in Germany journalists and studies must still take into account wether it's West or East Germany, since now East Germany is essentially poorer than the West, e.g. lower wages than in the west.
One intresting thing to note is that in East Germany there exist many universities without university fee unlike in the West.
The school system made up by the DDR is now under discussion to be build and handled nationwide and in much larger scale.

Another crucial thing is that in TV they'll mostly show you the bad things about it, like some practices by the Stasi and people affected by it.
It's always the same, just think of the movie "The Lives of Others" which won an oscar in 2007.

Nevertheless, I don't know quite enough about the DDR's outlook to tell something about it.

[Invincible Summer]

Now that it's been brought up, it seems that most of the criticisms I've heard about the DDR were:
- One wasn't allowed to travel to the West (why not travel eastwards?)
- Sometimes one would have to wait in long lines to get basic groceries (perhaps a result of trade embargos? I'm not even sure if there were any, but it'd make sense)
- The Trabi
- Families being divided by the Berliner Mauer
- The Stasi

To me, the only real troubling aspects would be the Stasi and the family separation, but other criticisms seemed to be fairly trivial. Upon superficial consideration, the DDR did seem to be more autonomous than other Soviet-bloc nations, as some of you have mentioned.

Is the DDR to Marxists what Anarchist Catalonia is to Anarchists?

[benhur]

All this is new. I thought DDR was the European version of North Korea. It's usually accepted that West Germany had the best growth rate in the world, ahead of even US, UK, and the rest. Wouldn't DDR then pale in comparison? In what way were they better, if at all?

[Philosophical Materialist]

All this is new. I thought DDR was the European version of North Korea. It's usually accepted that West Germany had the best growth rate in the world, ahead of even US, UK, and the rest. Wouldn't DDR then pale in comparison? In what way were they better, if at all?

I've never heard the comparison with North Korea, so that's news to me. Comparing nominal GDP growth isn't a useful tool for analysing socialist societies.

Like I said above, women and the working class had far more power in the DDR compared to the BRD, despite the bureaucratic nature of the state.

Living standards in the DDR weren't a patch on middle class living standards in the BRD. However the social, political and economic standing of women in the DDR were far higher than in the BRD.

I don't see the DDR as a pristine implementation of Marxism, but it's a useful experience to learn from. I think it's a shame that it's gone.

[Melbourne Lefty]

The Stasi was a phenomenon amongst international and domestic security/intelligence forces providing a model even the NKVD would have envied.


Is it true that when they opened the books they found that 1 in every six people had informed to or were working for the Stasi or is that just a myth?

[ComradeOm]

Is it true that when they opened the books they found that 1 in every six people had informed to or were working for the Stasi or is that just a myth?Calculations vary considerably. Some say it was 1:6, others 1:600. It generally depends on the number and classification of part-time informers, and, as always, just who is doing the counting

Still, it is almost uniformly accepted that the Stasi intelligence network was far more comprehensive than that of the Gestapo or KGB, who are typically assumed to have set the benchmarks for secret police apparatus. Compare roughly 6K officers and 70K informants for a population of 66 million (Gestapo) or roughly 400K officers for 280+ million citizens (KGB, including its vast number of censors and uniformed paramilitaries) to the Stasi's 90K officers and 170+ K informants for a population of merely 16 million [Schmeidel, JC., (2007), Stasi: Shield and Sword]

If nothing else the GDR can always claim the world record in informants per capita

[Melbourne Lefty]

Calculations vary considerably. Some say it was 1:6, others 1:600. It generally depends on the number and classification of part-time informers, and, as always, just who is doing the counting

Still, it is almost uniformly accepted that the Stasi intelligence network was far more comprehensive than that of the Gestapo or KGB, who are typically assumed to have set the benchmarks for secret police apparatus. Compare roughly 6K officers and 70K informants for a population of 66 million (Gestapo) or roughly 400K officers for 280+ million citizens (KGB, including its vast number of censors and uniformed paramilitaries) to the Stasi's 90K officers and 170+ K informants for a population of merely 16 million [Schmeidel, JC., (2007), Stasi: Shield and Sword]

If nothing else the GDR can always claim the world record in informants per capita

wow.:ohmy:

Why did they have so many do you think?

Im not a fan of the old Eastern bloc but that seems totally over the top. Were people just really eager to inform on their neighbours?:confused:

[Invincible Summer]

wow.:ohmy:

Why did they have so many do you think?

Im not a fan of the old Eastern bloc but that seems totally over the top. Were people just really eager to inform on their neighbours?:confused:


From what my German professor told me, the reason for the high number of Stasi is that the number of jobs available in East Germany was not enough for the amount of inhabitants (many had jobs in West Germany that they could no longer access), so many would work for the Stasi as they were always looking for people to work as informants or agents.

[Das war einmal]

Now that it's been brought up, it seems that most of the criticisms I've heard about the DDR were:

- The Trabi

Indeed, how dare they make a car out of plastic, thats a downright insult against industrial architects

[Das war einmal]

Another crucial thing is that in TV they'll mostly show you the bad things about it, like some practices by the Stasi and people affected by it.
It's always the same, just think of the movie "The Lives of Others" which won an oscar in 2007.


Thats just plain praising an anticommunist piece of work. The story in the movie has not even really happened.

The DDR and the USSR have fallen and with that there was lots of stuff revealed by the new capitalists regimes. But the capitalist regimes themselves have not fallen (yet) but if they do you can bet your ass that the level of spying on citizens is at least not lower as it was in the old socialist countries

[Philosophical Materialist]

The DDR and the USSR have fallen and with that there was lots of stuff revealed by the new capitalists regimes. But the capitalist regimes themselves have not fallen (yet) but if they do you can bet your ass that the level of spying on citizens is at least not lower as it was in the old socialist countries

There's a point. Britain has become a neoliberal security state, and the government and its security-intelligence apparatus is constantly demanding more powers to detain without trial, and more legal ways to spy on British residents.

The USA has followed a similar route. Despite some moderate social liberal tendencies of the Obama regime, they don't seem interested in rolling back the massive surveillance state that was augmented during the Bush years.


Indeed, how dare they make a car out of plastic, thats a downright insult against industrial architects

I think the Trabbi is cute. The engine had a lot to be desired although they'd sorted that problem out by 1989. Duroplast was a very strong material and of course rust-resistant. I'd love to have a Trabbi.

[Ligeia]

The DDR and the USSR have fallen and with that there was lots of stuff revealed by the new capitalists regimes. But the capitalist regimes themselves have not fallen (yet) but if they do you can bet your ass that the level of spying on citizens is at least not lower as it was in the old socialist countries

I wasn't stating anything else, just trying to show that in today's German media-"landscape" you'll se how it's a normal procedure to denounce everything bad which was practiced there (without mentioning what's happening here and now) and everyone who says otherwise must be crazy.
Another example: on political talk shows you'll often see ex-DDR-prisoners demonizing everything left.

[ComradeOm]

There's a point. Britain has become a neoliberal security state, and the government and its security-intelligence apparatus is constantly demanding more powers to detain without trial, and more legal ways to spy on British residentsWhich has to be placed in context. Really, in a thread that deal with the Stasi, are you going to claim that Britain is a police state?

[REDFOREVER]

Ya, A lot of this info is new to me as well. I get so many people who COMPLETELY bash the DDR, :mad: and I've been looking for ways to counter it. If anyone has written facts, I would love the aid...:rolleyes:

[Philosophical Materialist]

Which has to be placed in context. Really, in a thread that deal with the Stasi, are you going to claim that Britain is a police state?

No, if that was my intention I would have claimed it already. I used it as an example to show hypocrisy in the attitudes of the powerful capitalist nations.

[KurtFF8]

Yes but not entirely. Superficially of course it was just another Warsaw Pact puppet/partner but look beyond and the picture is slightly more nuanced

Unfortunately I'm not particularly well read on the GDR itself but it is important to recognise that the East German government did have an intellectual heritage and history of its own. The state was of course established in the wake of the Red Army but many of its prominent politicians - such as Ulbricht, Honecker, and Pieck - had been members of the KPD during the 1918 revolution or years immediately following. So there was a considerable communist tradition already present and over the years the GDR proved to be far more loyal to Marxist-Leninist traditions than many of its neighbouring WP states. This is despite being the second most powerful, economically and militarily, COMECON state

And no discussion of the GDR would be complete without noting its excellent national anthem (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Eam_XScivh8)


While you're quite correct about the "heritage" of the party having legitimate roots in German revolutionary history, the method in which it came to power was indeed an expression of what I think can only be considered to be Soviet imperialism.

There was no workers revolution or uprising that lead to the the GDR being formed but instead it was the decision of the USSR and the West in a sense (although initially they had a plan of uniting Germany which fell apart slowly as the Cold War began). Thus it was international politics that lead to the party to gain power and for the GDR to form, not a proletarian revolution.

Now obviously there is much debate about the Bolshevik revolution and whether it was a "coup" by the party that represented the working class or a working class revolution (althought I suspect most here will go with working class revolution, as I do, the role of the party after that revolution is what is up for much debate of course). The GDR is a case where it should be quite clear that it was pure politics coming into play to put the party in power.

Now the GDR certainly had some important gains, especially in terms of things like eliminating unemployment and providing housing to everyone. But the way in which the overall economy was structured, it eventaully lead to stagnation.

[KurtFF8]

Is the DDR to Marxists what Anarchist Catalonia is to Anarchists?

Looking at how bad the period of stagnation was after the "golden age" that ultimately resulted in the full collapse of the GDR, I would certainly hope not.