Obama inauguration: Your views

[RSS News]

President-elect Barack Obama will be sworn in as the 44th US president on Tuesday. What are your expectations?

(Feed provided by BBC News | Have your Say (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/2/hi/talking_point/default.stm))

[lvatt]

Honestly, I think he's more dangerous than John McCain. At least the working class knows McCain isn't a friend... with Obama, he presents himself as a savior and people seems to believe it. By itself, this is not really a good thing because it keeps the working class distracted by this personality cult.

The only positive thing I can think of is if Obama can push for policies that will increase membership in trade unions, such as nationalizing key industries... but I'm not holding my breath. I still think that with a clearly identifiable enemy like John McCain the working class would become more united and more aggressive out of necessity.

[Pogue]

Another shame facade of the ruling class. Obama is our enemy.

[AnarchyIsOrder]

New face, same boss, less Bushisms unless Jeb decides to run.

[Nosotros]

Yep America's Tony Blair.

[SocialRealist]

I think Obama is a very good man. I know many users on here love to push there hate for Obama for being a "reactionary" and a "capitalist".

The facts are that Obama is a step in a different direction, one that steps away from a single party or ideology and towards one that seems to be uniting a vast number of people. Whether or not Barack is a "capitalist" that does not matter. What matters is that, for the first time in American history an African-American has taken office and one that has not shown a sort of arrogance or a form of ignorance towards others.

I find myself a need to argue with those who want a violent revolution that will "wash away capitalism in one direct hit". As that is not a realist point of view, a realist point of view is working ourselves up a tiny ladder and making changes one and a time whilst protecting our homeland, making our people free and showing a sense of care for our people.

I may not be a member of the Democratic Party but I feel extreme solidarity with Barack Obama.

[RebelDog]

I think Obama is a very good man. I know many users on here love to push there hate for Obama for being a "reactionary" and a "capitalist".

The facts are that Obama is a step in a different direction, one that steps away from a single party or ideology and towards one that seems to be uniting a vast number of people. Whether or not Barack is a "capitalist" that does not matter. What matters is that, for the first time in American history an African-American has taken office and one that has not shown a sort of arrogance or a form of ignorance towards others.

I find myself a need to argue with those who want a violent revolution that will "wash away capitalism in one direct hit". As that is not a realist point of view, a realist point of view is working ourselves up a tiny ladder and making changes one and a time whilst protecting our homeland, making our people free and showing a sense of care for our people.

I may not be a member of the Democratic Party but I feel extreme solidarity with Barack Obama.

This is just more of the vacuous nonsense that has assaulted our ears over the past months. What different direction? What do you all mean? If he wasn't a capitalist and believed in the free-market he would not now be being sworn in as emperor. They have you believe that change comes slow as is difficult in order to have you believe they are going to do things for the population whilst they dutifully attend to the welfare of the business elite. The role of the president is the capitalists state manager and it would be impossible to rise to that position if one planned to run things in the interests of the wider population.

The whole thing is superficial and without substance. Its just another boss who will do nothing for the working class but continue their oppression whilst he attends to the needs of the US business elite and their empire. Strip away the fanfare, the hero worship and the vague language and you find that is his real job description and he will carry it out like all the other gangsters before him.

[fabiansocialist]

What are your expectations?

None. There'll be some media fanfare for a few days while commentators prattle on about the enormous "significance" of a black figurehead (sorry, president) of the US imperium but they won't elaborate. There'll be some sound and fury from the new administration for a few days, with some photo-ops of Obama looking suitably grave and concerned. And then back to the same old. Obama is more of the same -- if his prevaricating talk and choice of cabinet is any indicator. And he has no magic tricks up his sleeve for the current crisis of capitalism. Now let me go back to sleep.

[BobKKKindle$]

Obama will not bring any fundamental changes - he may make some minor adjustments to the way capitalism is run, but at the end of the day he is a member of exactly the same class as Bush and all the other presidents who have willingly oppressed the working people of the world on behalf of the American bourgeoisie, and this is what revolutionaries need to be explaining to people who have fallen under the illusion that radical change can be achieved within the existing political framework of capitalist society. The extent of Obama's continuity with previous administrations and the historic trajectory of American foreign policy can be shown by his cabinet appointments - Rahm Emanuel served in the IDF and has been appointed as Obama’s chief of staff, suggesting that Obama plans to maintain close military and diplomatic links with Israel, which makes perfect sense from the viewpoint of the American bourgeoisie, whom Obama represents, as Israel exists to protect the strategic interests of the US in the Middle East. Obama is also likely to retain Robert Gates, foreign secretary under Bush, against the naive wishes of those who predict that Obama will withdraw troops from occupied Iraq. The impending economic crisis will severely restrict Obama's ability to implement domestic reforms such as universal healthcare provision and an increase in the minimum wage because capital will strengthen downwards pressure on working conditions in order to deal with a declining rate of profit and the threat of bankruptcy.

Your naivety is disgusting.

[jake williams]

The facts are that Obama is a step in a different direction
No. He's waving in a different direction, but he's stepping, even striding in very much the usual direction. Or has as been mentioned, he wouldn't have been appointed.


Whether or not Barack is a "capitalist" that does not matter.
It certainly does! He's not personally a "capitalist" in the technical sense, but he is a member of the ruling class who acts against the interests of the working class. That matters.


What matters is that, for the first time in American history an African-American has taken office
That certainly matters. It'll have a mix of positive and negative effects though. On one hand, it's certainly a type of progress against racism. On the other hand, he'll get away with more, and there's going to be, you already see it, this absurd perception that racism is "over" when in fact black people will continue to be disproportionately oppressed under capitalism.


and one that has not shown a sort of arrogance or a form of ignorance towards others.
Bullshit. He's got the biggest messiah complex since JFK. The only way he's "not arrogant" is only because he's unwilling to commit to his real policies in public, because his base wants something different then he does. That makes him look "moderate", but it really just means he's lying.


"wash away capitalism in one direct hit".
No real revolutionary thinks that there's just going to be a riot in Petrograd and we'll all be living in a socialist utopia tomorrow. That's the whole point of Marxism.


I may not be a member of the Democratic Party but I feel extreme solidarity with Barack Obama.
He doesn't feel any solidarity with you.



ed: All that said, things will be a bit different than they would have been had McCain been elected. It's not trivial to say how precisely they would be though. For example, we might see a retreat of the protest sentiment we've seen against Bush. We'll also probably see more international leeway given to American aggression and imperialism. On the other hand, he might concretely be less vicious, and while that isn't a simple thing, it's not unimportant.

[ev]

Obama = the United States false hope.
People are like "omg he is black an our president its amazing" as if by him being elected means that racial prejudice towards african americans will not exist hence forth. People are diluted in their fucking minds if they think that Obama will bring equality to them. Also, I'm sick of hearing on the fucking news about how its a leap forward in the world that the US president is black, it doesn't represent shit in the rest of the world and yet american news outlets are saying it does? I DONT FUCKING CARE. I swear, it's like US media outlets are trying to say "the world is now run by a black man, the US represents the world and thus racial discrimination does not exist hence forth today, heil obama!"

Anyway, If i hear someone saying how great it is that he was elected i'm going to cry.

[Nietzsche's Ghost]

Inaguration? I thought its a crowning.

On a more serious note. Obama will bring about surface reforms that people will praise while Obama continues like any other president and gets people killed.

[JohnnyC]

Whether or not Barack is a "capitalist" that does not matter. What matters is that, for the first time in American history an African-American has taken office and one that has not shown a sort of arrogance or a form of ignorance towards others.

haha lol

Yes, its not important that he is a capitalist, the important thing is the color of his skin... :)

[Herman]

The facts are that Obama is a step in a different direction

Liberals are not a different direction.

[Kassad]

More anti-working class regression, more reactionary policies and more militaristic hegemony. A veil of 'change' over the face of the ruling elite. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[redguard2009]

I don't even see it as a victory for blacks and minority Americans -- I see it as their defeat, for the first black president is nothing more than a capitalist poster-boy, a PR move.

$50,000,000 on his inauguration ceremony and party, while over a million Americans have lost their jobs in the past year?

[Rjevan]

Another shame facade of the ruling class. Obama is our enemy.
I agree.

He's got the biggest messiah complex since JFK.
I totally agree!
He is arrogant through and through and sees himself at least as the new messiah, if not as god.
And the real joke is that he has done absolutly nothing yet. He just stands there and shouts for change and people fall to his feet. They call him charismatic, I call him demagogic.
In my opinion he is only out for power, he doesn't really care about the people and he's an opportunist, too.

He doesn't feel any solidarity with you.
Haha, right. :lol:

I don't even see it as a victory for blacks and minority Americans -- I see it as their defeat, for the first black president is nothing more than a capitalist poster-boy, a PR move.

$50,000,000 on his inauguration ceremony and party, while over a million Americans have lost their jobs in the past year?
Just what i thought. If he really want's to help people he had best start right now, donating the $50.000.000 to people who really need them instead of giving into his megalomania.
Once he said: "Some people have never understood that this election never was about me...it's all about you!"
...Yes, we can see that right now. :thumbdown:

[Cumannach]

They probably think it was a pretty smart move putting in a black hero president. Somehow I think the american working class will see beyond it more easily than they expect, thanks to the economic crisis.

Also that 'yes we can' slogan is the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

[punisa]

This looked like some medieval crowning ceremony :( Two million people cheering like geese without not really knowing much of Obama.

Yes, the speech he delivered was very good as far as oratory skills go, but I could do it as well. All he did is memorize a speech someone else wrote !
And it's a 27 old douche bag that deserves credit for it, source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/20/barack-obama-inauguration-us-speech

"Show must go on"..

[punisa]

They probably think it was a pretty smart move putting in a black hero president. Somehow I think the american working class will see beyond it more easily than they expect, thanks to the economic crisis.

Also that 'yes we can' slogan is the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

I think not. Majority of the working class is brainwashed, once they hear his speech they will just be "inspired" to work harder.
Maybe you will see beyond it, because you understand the way this system functions ! But your average exploited worker can not !
There must be a global movement that will explain what is really going on.

Actions need to be taken to attract attention of the masses. Leftist idea could use an oratory genius such as Obama, unfortunately it lacks such people.
Smart socialists spend too much time preaching ideology amongst themselves and publishing articles that only their kind reads !

[Forward Union]

It was really boring.

[RedScare]

Well, at least he's less likely to invade Iran.

[Dr Mindbender]

During the inaugauration they dropped the ball while reading it out.

I thought that was quite funny. :laugh:

I wouldve rofl'ed if he fell down the stairs.

[gorillafuck]

While I might be a little more upset if McCain was in, I dislike Obama quite a lot for reasons that have already been stated. But there is also the factor of McCain being a more obvious enemy, while Obama is being presented as a savior to the working class.

Meh. Same government and same capitalists.

[Woland]

Work harder? With all the hope around it sounds like the work is already half-done! Who'd want to work harder when victory is assured and change is coming :rolleyes:

One thing I just cannot understand is why is it so important that Obama is black. Even though I don't live in the USA to know such things so well, the media and the people, even here, keep on stressing on this, as if this already means a massive victory against racism, if not his presidency will somehow completely stop it! It just seems like some amazing, absolutely necessary fact. This just shows that for now, nothing serious will come out of this, as news keep going about what food he will eat, where he will go on holiday, and so on. The first week might seem interesting, but I seem to be already bored, so I am stuck between trying to care and trying to not care at all.

[Dr Mindbender]

While I might be a little more upset if McCain was in, I dislike Obama quite a lot for reasons that have already been stated. But there is also the factor of McCain being a more obvious enemy, while Obama is being presented as a savior to the working class.

Well at least when BHO fucks up (which he inevitably will) the liberal cappies won't be able to drone ''well it would've been different had our boy won...etc''.

[gorillafuck]

Well at least when BHO fucks up (which he inevitably will) the liberal cappies won't be able to drone ''well it would've been different had our boy won...etc''.
Oooh, I didn't think of that.

That will be a fun day for me:lol:

[Dr Mindbender]

Also-

I think the inaugauration of America's first socialist president will be of greater historical importance.

[Dóchas]

he said something about those who were sure of corruption at the highest levels were on the wrong side of history but if they unclenched their fists he would help them... was that directed at us by any chance :rolleyes:

[Mike666]

$50,000,000 on his inauguration ceremony and party, while over a million Americans have lost their jobs in the past year?

:bored:
50 million? that's awful. what a waste :bored:

[Dr Mindbender]

:bored:
50 million? that's awful. what a waste :bored:

Oh well, if theres any consolation at least its not 50 million being spent to bomb other countries.

[Sam_b]

Remember when Thatcher became the first woman Prime Minister in the UK? Remember how this was also supposed to be a 'step in the right direction' and something to be celebrated? And we all know how long that took until she fucked over the workers and perpetuated a culture of blame, racism and murder.

I'm not saying in any way that Obama is comparable to Thatcher, but we can't kid ourselves that because he is black he is somehow progressive. The fact of the matter is that by flirting with big business, playing down his half-brother who lives in poverty in Kenya, and supporting a bailout of bankers and bosses while hundreds of thousands of Americans were/are seeing their homes repossessed and jobs lost just goes to show where his loyalties lie: with the rich. He has sold out the African American community rather than being their champion in a still very racially divided society, and has sold out the workers. What really makes me angry is that for millions of black Americans, he gave them hope, the hope that their voice would finally be heard in a society where they are still less likely to have adequate housing, secure jobs and acess to decent education compared to the white population. He has, and will continue to let them down.

I don't think it will be that long until these so-called 'realists' see what Obama will do in office and give flustered excuses about the position they were taking.

[Kassad]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Republicans become the 'change' party in 4-8 years. Honestly, that's how the cycle goes. Anything that goes wrong gets blamed on the party in power. Not that it shouldn't be blamed on them, but the ruling class just transition between the two parties to make it appear that progress is being made and that change is coming. Bourgeoisie propaganda.

[Sarah Palin]

I think Obama is a very good man. I know many users on here love to push there hate for Obama for being a "reactionary" and a "capitalist".

The facts are that Obama is a step in a different direction, one that steps away from a single party or ideology and towards one that seems to be uniting a vast number of people. Whether or not Barack is a "capitalist" that does not matter. What matters is that, for the first time in American history an African-American has taken office and one that has not shown a sort of arrogance or a form of ignorance towards others.

I find myself a need to argue with those who want a violent revolution that will "wash away capitalism in one direct hit". As that is not a realist point of view, a realist point of view is working ourselves up a tiny ladder and making changes one and a time whilst protecting our homeland, making our people free and showing a sense of care for our people.

I may not be a member of the Democratic Party but I feel extreme solidarity with Barack Obama.

I agree with you, to some degree. No, he's not the perfect candidate, but I doubt there ever will be. I think with him in office, there will be a higher level of diplomacy and civility towards other nations, and that's something to look forward to. As for his other policies, they are small steps in the right direction. Not leaps, but they're getting there. A
And the fact that he went to Harvard does not make him an "elite oppressor of the poor." It makes him an educated person.

[BobKKKindle$]

he said something about those who were sure of corruption at the highest levels were on the wrong side of history but if they unclenched their fists he would help them... was that directed at us by any chance

No.

"To the Muslim world, we seek a new way forward, based on mutual interest and mutual respect. To those leaders around the globe who seek to sow conflict, or blame their society's ills on the West - know that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy. To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history; but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/obama_inauguration/7840646.stm

[Dóchas]

oh right i knew it was something like that but i couldnt remeber, thanks

[punisa]

From the same BBC source: "We will not apologise for our way of life, nor will we waver in its defence, and for those who seek to advance their aims by inducing terror and slaughtering innocents, we say to you now that our spirit is stronger and cannot be broken; you cannot outlast us, and we will defeat you."

Anyone wanna comment on this?
I'll just be sitting here and waiting for your response, here in Eastern Europe... just sitting in my blue jeans, finished my McDonalds Big Mac, listening to Bon Jovi on radio. Well currently radio is better then TV cause all they show in these hours is "CSI NY", "Grey's anatomy" and "Dr. House" Think I'll also have a smoke of Marlboro while waiting, cause it makes me look ... as we say in our language - "cool".

[Robespierre2.0]

You guys sound like nonbelievers. Don't you know that 'Hope' is secret demo-communist code for expropriating the means of production and 'Change' is establishing the Dictatorship of the Proletariat? Expect the U.S. to close down its military bases around the world, withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan, arrest class enemies, give the flag a new design with the hammer and sickle in the inset, and construct a giant bronze statue of two homosexual lovers in coitus right in front of the capitol.

[More Fire for the People]

A Black man will now sleep in a home built by slaves. A Black man will now administrate a country that didn't even count Black people as a full individual on the census. That's what I think.

[fabiansocialist]

50 million? that's awful. what a waste

$150m. A new record. GWB spent $42m. And the partying and deal-making is going to extend far into the night with all the balls and parties.

[fabiansocialist]

"To the Muslim world, we seek a new way forward, based on mutual interest and mutual respect. To those leaders around the globe who seek to sow conflict, or blame their society's ills on the West - know that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy. To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history; but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist"

So what exactly does this specious bullshit mean?

[JimmyJazz]

Honestly, I think he's more dangerous than John McCain. At least the working class knows McCain isn't a friend... with Obama, he presents himself as a savior and people seems to believe it. By itself, this is not really a good thing because it keeps the working class distracted by this personality cult.

The only positive thing I can think of is if Obama can push for policies that will increase membership in trade unions, such as nationalizing key industries... but I'm not holding my breath. I still think that with a clearly identifiable enemy like John McCain the working class would become more united and more aggressive out of necessity.

That makes intuitive sense, but it doesn't really work like that. Having men such as Reagan or Bush in office has a real, negative effect on working class organizing.

Reagan (http://www.dickmeister.com/id89.html)

Bush 1 (http://blog.aflcio.org/2007/12/11/new-report-the-bush-labor-department-beyond-justice/), Bush 2 (http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0626-29.htm), Bush 3 (http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=37207), Bush 4 (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-sun-union-card-check-jan11,0,2276805.story), Bush 5 (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/washington/30labor.html?_r=1&ref=politics)

A few of those are not directly about the right to organize, but I think they're still indicative of a general attitude towards labor which would encompass infringements on the right to organize.

I'm not saying Obama isn't our enemy, but if our choice is between someone who favors repealing some of the illegitimate legal restrictions on the right to organize, and a guy who wants to add more, I think the choice is clear.

*Fuck* Bush and *fuck* McCain. Obama...Fuck him, but gently. For the most part, I'd say just ignore him and do our thing.

[JimmyJazz]

Oh well, if theres any consolation at least its not 50 million being spent to bomb other countries.

I nodded in agreement with this. A sad commentary on our "democracy", eh? We're glad to see our own government's resources wasted because of the nefarious purposes they now can't be used for! We have *no* control over our government. It is not a democracy.

[Mike666]

$150m. A new record. GWB spent $42m. And the partying and deal-making is going to extend far into the night with all the balls and parties.

:O It really is wrong. so narcissistic and decadent. it's not the kind of example they should be setting.

[jake williams]

That makes intuitive sense, but it doesn't really work like that. Having men such as Reagan or Bush in office has a real, negative effect on working class organizing.

Reagan (http://www.dickmeister.com/id89.html)

Bush 1 (http://blog.aflcio.org/2007/12/11/new-report-the-bush-labor-department-beyond-justice/), Bush 2 (http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0626-29.htm), Bush 3 (http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=37207), Bush 4 (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-sun-union-card-check-jan11,0,2276805.story), Bush 5 (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/washington/30labor.html?_r=1&ref=politics)

A few of those are not directly about the right to organize, but I think they're still indicative of a general attitude towards labor which would encompass infringements on the right to organize.

I'm not saying Obama isn't our enemy, but if our choice is between someone who favors repealing some of the illegitimate legal restrictions on the right to organize, and a guy who wants to add more, I think the choice is clear.

*Fuck* Bush and *fuck* McCain. Obama...Fuck him, but gently. For the most part, I'd say just ignore him and do our thing.
I think it's actually a combination of both, a combination of effects. I think it's very difficult to say whether we'd prefer someone who's open and more violent, or unchallenged and slightly less violent. I don't think we should ignore any of it.

[JimmyJazz]

I think it's actually a combination of both, a combination of effects. I think it's very difficult to say whether we'd prefer someone who's open and more violent, or unchallenged and slightly less violent. I don't think we should ignore any of it.

Well, ask yourself what the "challenge" to Bush achieved in the last eight years.

No, give the working class room to breathe and they'll have the energy to actually push for something more. During the Bush administration, they were simply trying to stay alive. To me it's very clear which kind of president facilitates our struggle (our totally independent struggle, don't misunderstand me), and it isn't the one who wages relentless war on us. We don't benefit from Bush or Reagan any more than the Bolsheviks benefited from the Russian autocracy cracking down on political dissidents. They succeeded despite it, not because of it. Their active opposition to S-R (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist-Revolutionary_Party) terrorism is evidence that they weren't exactly happy about the government crackdown that resulted from it.

By the way, I will be keeping an eye on this over the next four years:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/

[punisa]

By the way, I will be keeping an eye on this over the next four years:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/

Heeey, that is an excellent resource ! thanks !

[Dóchas]

this doesnt make any sense at all the country is in a recession and they are blowing $50 million in one day on a party? wtf? :confused:

[RedHal]

The ruling class are not stupid, they know what they have in Obama. What did he get? Something like $200 million (new record) in donations for his campaign and it's not from the poor. The ruling class needs an "Obama", someone young, fresh and new to gain the trust of the workers, so that he can slap them in the face as the economy worsens.

[Guerrilla22]

It was a huge waste of money. 145 million for some decadent ceremony while people are squatting in their foreclosed homes. Whats worse is the fact that people are cumming all over the place over it. One of my profs turned the tv on in lecture so everyone could watch it live. I put my head down and went to sleep.

[ernie]

I'm not saying Obama isn't our enemy, but if our choice is between someone who favors repealing some of the illegitimate legal restrictions on the right to organize, and a guy who wants to add more, I think the choice is clear.
The thing is, it's not our choice. We don't get to choose who the next president is anymore than we get to choose who wins the superbowl (and both of those things are equally relevant).

But even if it were our choice, I still fail to see why choosing Obama over McCain is beneficial to our movement. How many "legal restrictions on the right to organize" are in place is (or should be) completely irrelevant to us. No matter how many "labor rights" they give us, the capitalists will never give us the "right" to overthrow them. Our movement must not be concerned with bourgeois legality in any sense. We're going to have to break their laws when we revolt. Is it really going to matter what the legal limitations are on trade unions?

There is something else: if Obama is indeed better for us than McCain or Bush, doesn't it logically follow that we should have campaigned for him? After all, he'll give us so many rights...


*Fuck* Bush and *fuck* McCain. Obama...Fuck him, but gently. For the most part, I'd say just ignore him and do our thing.
No. Fuck all of them. They are all parasitic pieces of shit, and our enemies. The sooner we all realize that, the better we'll do.

[Invincible Summer]

I was having a debate about Obama with some people I knew. They eventually accused me of being racist because I said that he won't change a thing for black people. His followers are so foolish.

I'm so sick of the whole personality cult surrounding him. Fuck.

[Das war einmal]

I wage his words against his deeds, can't judge him just yet, however, we can not forget more than 100 years of tyranny, imperialism and oppression in just 8 years. The USA is morally completely broken and people who forgive so easily should receive a mentally kick in the ass.

[jake williams]

They eventually accused me of being racist because I said that he won't change a thing for black people.
90% of Barack Obama's campaign against the left. Somebody had to say it.

[Kassad]

90% of Barack Obama's campaign against the left. Somebody had to say it.

He's running a center-right campaign, if anything. He is an enemy of the working class.

[ev]

I think Obama is a very good man. I know many users on here love to push there hate for Obama for being a "reactionary" and a "capitalist".

The facts are that Obama is a step in a different direction, one that steps away from a single party or ideology and towards one that seems to be uniting a vast number of people. Whether or not Barack is a "capitalist" that does not matter. What matters is that, for the first time in American history an African-American has taken office and one that has not shown a sort of arrogance or a form of ignorance towards others.

I find myself a need to argue with those who want a violent revolution that will "wash away capitalism in one direct hit". As that is not a realist point of view, a realist point of view is working ourselves up a tiny ladder and making changes one and a time whilst protecting our homeland, making our people free and showing a sense of care for our people.

I may not be a member of the Democratic Party but I feel extreme solidarity with Barack Obama.

Your fucking kidding? He is the same capitalist pig as the rest of them, just a bit slimmer, time will write history and no matter how amazing the American propaganda machines portrays him, no matter how many good speeches he makes, his actions will speak louder than words.

[jake williams]

He's running a center-right campaign, if anything. He is an enemy of the working class.
What I'm pointing out is Obama had to run a campaign against the left in order to win over "left" or liberal voters. And he ran that one on being black. Doesn't work for everybody. For some Americans you can run as a black candidate, for others you have to run against being black.

[ev]

I was having a debate about Obama with some people I knew. They eventually accused me of being racist because I said that he won't change a thing for black people. His followers are so foolish.

I'm so sick of the whole personality cult surrounding him. Fuck.

Now comrades, let us compare the cult of personality of Joseph Stalin and Barack Obama, the brainwashed masses are yet another example of the power of propaganda :thumbup1:

[Hit The North]

I thought the ceremony was neat but I was disappointed they didn't play my song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA16sqCusbY

Having nicked my slogan it's the least he could've done. :(

[JimmyJazz]

The thing is, it's not our choice. We don't get to choose who the next president is anymore than we get to choose who wins the superbowl (and both of those things are equally relevant).

But even if it were our choice, I still fail to see why choosing Obama over McCain is beneficial to our movement.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "our choice"...I certainly didn't vote for him, and wouldn't ever have. I voted McKinney, and would have voted socialist if there was one on the ballot. In fact I raised signatures to try and get a socialist on my state's ballot. I just meant those are the two options that face us, realistically speaking. I'm not saying we should participate in screwing ourselves, either hard or soft (sorry to keep using this metaphor).

As for the rest of your post, all I can say is that in terms of my personal experience with union organizing, it is naive. I've been with the IWW for a few months and done volunteer organizing with a more mainstream union for about a month and a half. BOTH unions do plenty of good underground organizing. In fact, they both keep their campaigns underground for the majority of their duration, out of necessity. But to say that it isn't beneficial to be able to, say, file a ULP against the bosses at an opportune time, is just foolish. Legal means certainly aren't to be respected as the only means, they are just another trick in our bag.

[FreeFocus]

Honestly, I think he's more dangerous than John McCain. At least the working class knows McCain isn't a friend... with Obama, he presents himself as a savior and people seems to believe it. By itself, this is not really a good thing because it keeps the working class distracted by this personality cult.

The only positive thing I can think of is if Obama can push for policies that will increase membership in trade unions, such as nationalizing key industries... but I'm not holding my breath. I still think that with a clearly identifiable enemy like John McCain the working class would become more united and more aggressive out of necessity.

Agreed.

However, I think Obama's presidency will have far-reaching consequences in terms of America's image, capitalism's image, and the ability and willingness of oppressed groups to fight imperialism (see my essay written after his election, it's in my blog). When I see pictures of Obama hanging on the walls of shacks and slums of hundreds of millions of poor people, much as is done with Che today, I will most likely reassess my willingness to agitate for socialism and anti-imperialism. At that point, for me personally, I would consider it a defeat. I would not encourage others to stop though.

Still, I will write another article in the coming days titled "What Does a Deformed Revolution Look Like?"

EDIT: I had exams this week, so I should have the article written for the end of this week, like Friday or Saturday.

[Davie zepeda]

there is no revolution with this man it is farce he is no more worst than bush when will you get it they need him now there in a state of crisis they need this bullshit to save capitalism we must stop it before it is to late before we lose all are comrades !

[ernie]

But to say that it isn't beneficial to be able to, say, file a ULP against the bosses at an opportune time, is just foolish. Legal means certainly aren't to be respected as the only means, they are just another trick in our bag.
But is it a useful trick? That's the question. I feel that it is not. A favorable ULP ruling might get a boss fired, but another one will be put in their place. Only taking control of the factory will eliminate the bosses. (I admit my experiences with unions are limited, and am willing to look at evidence that might convince me of their usefulness. So far I have seen none.)

I guess my whole point is that we should be very clear about the meaning of bourgeois "elections", as far as workers are concerned: they have none. Saying Obama is better (even a little bit better) than McCain says the exact opposite. In other words, that there is hope in the existing system. That's not a very revolutionary message.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Fuck Obama he has created a gun and ammo scare here in California which means prices have went up. Plus he's just a PR concoction but I really can't wait until he shows his true colors so I can rub it in the face of every idiot who thought he was the shit... mainly my whole family.

[Chicano Shamrock]

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "our choice"...I certainly didn't vote for him, and wouldn't ever have. I voted McKinney, and would have voted socialist if there was one on the ballot. In fact I raised signatures to try and get a socialist on my state's ballot. I just meant those are the two options that face us, realistically speaking. I'm not saying we should participate in screwing ourselves, either hard or soft (sorry to keep using this metaphor).

As for the rest of your post, all I can say is that in terms of my personal experience with union organizing, it is naive. I've been with the IWW for a few months and done volunteer organizing with a more mainstream union for about a month and a half. BOTH unions do plenty of good underground organizing. In fact, they both keep their campaigns underground for the majority of their duration, out of necessity. But to say that it isn't beneficial to be able to, say, file a ULP against the bosses at an opportune time, is just foolish. Legal means certainly aren't to be respected as the only means, they are just another trick in our bag.
As a union member myself I agree that it is good to have a President that will choke unionizing the least. It's hard to say who would be the right choice though. Bill Clinton passed the worst law for workers in the last 50 years when he pushed NAFTA through.

[StalinFanboy]

Fuck Obama he has created a gun and ammo scare here in California which means prices have went up. Plus he's just a PR concoction but I really can't wait until he shows his true colors so I can rub it in the face of every idiot who thought he was the shit... mainly my whole family.
This. Oh god I can't wait.

[Martin Blank]

We said it in November, on the eve of the "election" (much to the dismay of so many then): Obama is "Bush's Third Term". We were attacked for saying this, but events have proven this analysis correct. We did not knuckle under to the sweep of petty-bourgeois "public opinion", and we will not in the coming period.

[ComradeR]

I am sick of hearing about Obama. I've been called everything from a cynic and a pessimist to even a racist because I haven't been singing him praises and have been arguing that he is essentially more of the same. Not to mention that they're ether willfully ignoring or making all kinds of excuses for the positions he's taking and the way he's built his administration.


$150m. A new record. GWB spent $42m. And the partying and deal-making is going to extend far into the night with all the balls and parties.

I was absolutely nauseated when I heard about the price tag of this inauguration, $45 million from just his inaugural committee ($3 million more then the cost of Bush's inauguration) and more then $150 million overall in the middle of recession? People are losing their jobs and homes (like my father who I learned a few days ago was laid off and now at risk of losing his home) and they're blowing hundreds of millions on a party!?

[Hit The North]

We said it in November, on the eve of the "election" (much to the dismay of so many then): Obama is "Bush's Third Term". We were attacked for saying this, but events have proven this analysis correct. We did not knuckle under to the sweep of petty-bourgeois "public opinion", and we will not in the coming period.

Which events? He's only been in office for less than 24 hours!

Also by calling it "Bush's Third Term" are you saying there will be no difference between Bush and Obama.?

[Kassad]

Which events? He's only been in office for less than 24 hours!

Also by calling it "Bush's Third Term" are you saying there will be no difference between Bush and Obama.?

Perhaps his consistent contradictions, such as his flip-flopping on NAFTA and the War in Iraq?

[bellyscratch]

im getting sick of the guy already, Cant get away from him

[Lord Testicles]

I think Obama is a very good man. I know many users on here love to push there hate for Obama for being a "reactionary" and a "capitalist".

The facts are that Obama is a step in a different direction, one that steps away from a single party or ideology and towards one that seems to be uniting a vast number of people. Whether or not Barack is a "capitalist" that does not matter. What matters is that, for the first time in American history an African-American has taken office and one that has not shown a sort of arrogance or a form of ignorance towards others.

I find myself a need to argue with those who want a violent revolution that will "wash away capitalism in one direct hit". As that is not a realist point of view, a realist point of view is working ourselves up a tiny ladder and making changes one and a time whilst protecting our homeland, making our people free and showing a sense of care for our people.

I may not be a member of the Democratic Party but I feel extreme solidarity with Barack Obama.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/RobertOak/ObamaDir_562.jpg

I'll just leave this here.

[Martin Blank]

Which events? He's only been in office for less than 24 hours!

Throughout the entire "seamless transition", Obama has put together a staff of hardened corporatists whose differences with the Bush regime are little more than cosmetic -- whether you're talking about Paul "shock therapy" Volcker as the head of his "economic recovery" team (and likely to be the "car czar"), or Geithner (one of the architects of the trillion-dollar bribe) at Treasury, or Clinton at State, or his four four-star generals in key "national security" positions. As well, there is his silent support for the Israeli invasion of Gaza and breaking of the United Auto Workers union, the corporate-welfare "stimulus plan", support for warrantless wiretapping and the "Domestic Extremists" bill, etc., etc., etc.


Also by calling it "Bush's Third Term" are you saying there will be no difference between Bush and Obama?

There are differences, but none that make him any better than Bush.

[Conquer or Die]

While I am cynical about what Obama can bring to the table. He does have the power to put an end to one big wing of America's imperialism: The Iraq War. He will make liberal economic moves and stimulus packages to increase his bi partisan favor and Corporate approval (similar to Billy Blowjob's "great" 8 years). He'll probably engage in some humanitarian bombing; still less than concocting imperialist warfare.

I don't have hope for the liberalization of gun and marijuana laws.

I don't have hope for the removal of economic benefits associated with marriage to end discrimination based on sexual orientation.

I don't have hope for decriminalization of Americans from Mexico staying in the United States.

He does not seem to me like a populist. But rather a shrewd political player who would rather leave a legacy of charity and some other bullshit rather than lead his people.

[Hit The North]

Throughout the entire "seamless transition", Obama has put together a staff of hardened corporatists whose differences with the Bush regime are little more than cosmetic -- whether you're talking about Paul "shock therapy" Volcker as the head of his "economic recovery" team (and likely to be the "car czar"), or Geithner (one of the architects of the trillion-dollar bribe) at Treasury, or Clinton at State, or his four four-star generals in key "national security" positions. As well, there is his silent support for the Israeli invasion of Gaza and breaking of the United Auto Workers union, the corporate-welfare "stimulus plan", support for warrantless wiretapping and the "Domestic Extremists" bill, etc., etc., etc.



Well... when you put it like that. :lol:;)


There are differences, but none that make him any better than Bush.

Does anyone have any faith in his ability or will to sort out the health system in the US? Or do you think he's just going to do a 'Clinton'?

[Martin Blank]

Does anyone have any faith in his ability or will to sort out the health system in the US? Or do you think he's just going to do a 'Clinton'?

Most likely, what we'll end up with is a modified form of Medicaid that creates an even greater multi-tier "health care" system, where workers and the poor get shitty and limited coverage and the relatively well-off, with their private insurance, still get the "best care money can buy". He certainly will not be removing profit from the equation.

[Kassad]

Obama will do as little as he has to to please the majority of the American population. That way, he, hand in hand with the ruling class, can pretend they actually give a damn about the working class. Those in power will continue to make decisions that make big business prosperous and they will continue to secure the massive paychecks for corporate executives. I'd be stunned if we made more than a few tiny steps towards socialized medicine.

[Sam_b]

He does have the power to put an end to one big wing of America's imperialism: The Iraq War

So by staging a withdrawal from Iraq over a number of years; supporting an extra two batallions to Afghanistan because it is "the winnable war", and by sabre-rattling against Iran, he is going to lessen US Imperialism?

Come off it.

[JimmyJazz]

I guess my whole point is that we should be very clear about the meaning of bourgeois "elections", as far as workers are concerned: they have none. Saying Obama is better (even a little bit better) than McCain says the exact opposite. In other words, that there is hope in the existing system. That's not a very revolutionary message.

Nope, you're twisting what I said.


For the most part, I'd say just ignore him and do our thing.

By which I mean, building the labor movement. Not building even more big, permanent, bureaucratic labor organizations, but staging actions and educating workers. Both independent of existing unions and within them (undercutting the conservative leadership at every turn possible). Of course, the whole question of within vs. outside of existing unions has less relevance when you live in the least unionized of all industrialized nations on earth.

[jake williams]

So by staging a withdrawal from Iraq over a number of years; supporting an extra two batallions to Afghanistan because it is "the winnable war", and by sabre-rattling against Iran, he is going to lessen US Imperialism?

Come off it.
ed: Alright, that link ain't any good, I just checked it out. Never mind.

[manic expression]

This sums up the Obama inauguration pretty well:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45398000/jpg/_45398424_006756141-1.jpg

[ernie]

By which I mean, building the labor movement. Not building even more big, permanent, bureaucratic labor organizations, but staging actions and educating workers. Both independent of existing unions and within them (undercutting the conservative leadership at every turn possible).
Fair enough. I still think working within the traditional union paradigm is a waste of time. It's unfortunately too ingrained in the system; the ruling class can deal with unions (again, the way they are now) perfectly well. We need new ways to organize that aren't controlled by politicians and businessmen. But this is another topic altogether.


Of course, the whole question of within vs. outside of existing unions has less relevance when you live in the least unionized of all industrialized nations on earth.
That's a good point. And it also raises an important question: why are American workers so repulsed by unions? I think the answer is obvious...

[BlackCapital]

On top of that, two days after the election Obama began trying to get the Africom Headquarters built in Kenya (http://allafrica.com/stories/200811080066.html).

"One president at a time" my ass.

Is this confirmed to be legit?

Really interesting and shady if it in fact is.

[jake williams]

Is this confirmed to be legit?

Really interesting and shady if it in fact is.
ed: My bad, that's kind of embarrassing. I should've checked it out. Apparently it's supposed to be satirical. Hits a little too close to home though.

[JimmyJazz]

And it also raises an important question: why are American workers so repulsed by unions? I think the answer is obvious...

Because they are conservative?

[Pawn Power]

Here's a good piece of analysis on his speech: Obama's Work Ethic (http://www.counterpunch.org/browne01212009.html)

[Pawn Power]

This sums up the Obama inauguration pretty well:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45398000/jpg/_45398424_006756141-1.jpg

Except he is supposedly closing it.

A better image, with basically the same message is this one;
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JNlxgs6qm2M/SRxCflHw5hI/AAAAAAAACN0/3UrHnGaUZ7g/s320/Bush-Obama+s.jpg

[manic expression]

Except he is supposedly closing it.

You don't think they're just going to move Guantanamo's operations elsewhere? Liberals oftentimes pile their indignation on top of a single symbol (Walmart, the WTO, Bush, etc.); if you simply make a show of doing away with the symbol and not the actual problem, liberal criticism promptly ends. It's a PR move to the Democratic base in an administration that will play to moderates far more than anyone else. It is highly doubtful that their policies will significantly change as a result.

[Pawn Power]

You don't think they're just going to move Guantanamo's operations elsewhere? Liberals oftentimes pile their indignation on top of a single symbol (Walmart, the WTO, Bush, etc.); if you simply make a show of doing away with the symbol and not the actual problem, liberal criticism promptly ends. It's a PR move to the Democratic base in an administration that will play to moderates far more than anyone else. It is highly doubtful that their policies will significantly change as a result.

Obviously it is a PR by the gov, with no real change towards actual brutal policies. That's why I think the image is a poor one- it focuses on a symbol and not US imperialism.

[jake williams]

Guantanamo isn't even that significant. It's become pretty obvious by now that it's just a propaganda symbol. The Bush administration wanted you to know they were pulling people off the streets, flying them halfway around the world, detaining them indefinitely and torturing them. The Obama administration will be less explicit about that. That's going to be one of the differences.

[ernie]

Because they are conservative?
I don't think this is the reason; at least not the only one. I think it is because unions have let them down. They (correctly) believe that most of them are led by a bunch of corrupt, opportunist parasites. Why would anybody want to be in an organization like that?

Anyway, I don't think we should derail the thread discussing this. Perhaps in another one...

[The Author]

Obama signs order to close Guantanamo in a year

By BEN FELLER, Associated Press Writer Ben Feller, Associated Press Writer 1 hr 6 mins ago

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama began overhauling U.S. treatment of terror suspects Thursday, signing orders to close the Guantanamo Bay detention center, shut down secret overseas CIA prisons, review military war crimes trials and ban the harshest interrogation methods.

With his action, Obama started changing how the United States prosecutes and questions al-Qaida, Taliban or other foreign fighters who pose a threat to Americans — and overhauling America's image abroad, battered by accusations of the use of torture and the indefinite detention of suspects at the Guantanamo prison in Cuba.

"The message that we are sending the world is that the United States intends to prosecute the ongoing struggle against violence and terrorism and we are going to do so vigilantly and we are going to do so effectively and we are going to do so in a manner that is consistent with our values and our ideals," the president said.

The centerpiece order would close the much-maligned Guantanamo facility within a year, a complicated process with many unanswered questions that was nonetheless a key campaign promise of Obama's. The administration already has suspended trials for terrorist suspects at Guantanamo for 120 days pending a review of the military tribunals.

In the other actions, Obama:

_Created a task force to recommend policies on handling terror suspects who are detained in the future. Specifically, the group would look at where those detainees should be housed since Guantanamo is closing.

_Required all U.S. personnel to follow the U.S. Army Field Manual while interrogating detainees. The manual explicitly prohibits threats, coercion, physical abuse and waterboarding, a technique that creates the sensation of drowning and has been termed a form of torture by critics. However, a Capitol Hill aide says that the administration also is planning a study of more aggressive interrogation methods that could be added to the Army manual — which would create a significant loophole to Obama's action Thursday.

"We believe that the Army Field Manual reflects the best judgment of our military, that we can abide by a rule that says we don't torture, but that we can still effectively obtain the intelligence that we need," Obama said. He said his action reflects an understanding that "we are willing to observe core standards of conduct, not just when it's easy, but also when it's hard."

A task force will study whether other interrogation guidelines — beyond what's spelled out in the Army manual — are necessary for intelligence professionals in dealing with terror suspects.

But an Obama administration official said that provision should not be considered a loophole that will allow controversial "enhanced interrogation techniques" to be re-introduced. The official spoke on condition of anonymity to speak candidly about the administration's thinking.

The order also orders the CIA to close all its existing detention facilities abroad for terror suspects — and prohibits those prisons from being used in the future. The agency has used those secret "black site" prisons around the world to question terror suspects.

_Directed the Justice Department to review the case of Qatar native Ali al-Marri, who is the only enemy combatant currently being held on U.S. soil. The directive will ask the high court for a stay in al-Marri's appeals case while the review is ongoing. The government says al-Marri is an al-Qaida sleeper agent.

An estimated 245 men are being held at the U.S. naval base in Cuba, most of whom have been detained for years without being charged with a crime. Among the sticky issues the Obama administration has to resolve are where to put those detainees — whether back in their home countries or at other federal detention centers — and how to prosecute some of them for war crimes.

"We intend to win this fight. We're going to win it on our terms," Obama said as he signed three executive orders and a presidential directive.

The administration official said Obama's government will not transfer detainees to countries that will mistreat them, including their own home country.

In his first Oval Office signing ceremony, Obama was surrounded by retired senior military leaders. He described them as outstanding Americans who have defended the country — and its ideals.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090122/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_suspected_terrorists

[U.R.S.A.]

expectations....there are none. We are still under the oppressive rule of capitalists, he's just a new face for an old strategy. but I will say that with liberals in control, our mission of socialism or communism will be attained alot quicker than if a conservative were in power; (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong)I was introduced to the political spectrum at a very young age, and I was always taught that the right=conservatives and left=liberals and that extremely radical conservatives=fascists and that those who are extremely radical liberals=communists or at the very least socialist. Logically since he is capitalist all this is for not, but still the thought lingers that since the power of the nation has shifted to liberalism, does this shift signal a window of opportunity for yet another shift, this time FROM capitalism? If anything it makes the nation more receptive of our ideas and with enough people....who knows what's possible. Again this is just me thinking...

[BlackCapital]

The shift from capitalism will most likely only be possible when the material conditions are right. The state of the economy is far, far more important then which candidate is sitting in the White House.

If more and more people are losing their homes and jobs, unable to afford necessities, and basically see the country is going to shit for the vast majority of citizens, the gigs up.

I don't think Obama is any better at all for a revolution because of his "liberal" leanings. In fact if anything he's probably worse, because in the present hes extremely popular.

[JimmyJazz]

I don't think this is the reason; at least not the only one. I think it is because unions have let them down. They (correctly) believe that most of them are led by a bunch of corrupt, opportunist parasites.

That's what I meant by conservative.

[JimmyJazz]

This sums up the Obama inauguration pretty well:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45398000/jpg/_45398424_006756141-1.jpg

I actually thanked this post, but that was mostly a reflex, even though I had already read that Obama has signed an executive order (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/22/obama-and-guantanamo-unde_n_159849.html) to close Guantanamo.

Anyone who is not incredibly relieved to have this man in the White House instead of McCain/Palin is simply out of it. There's nothing more to it than that. Every day for the last eight years, when I opened up a news site or turned on NPR or some progressive news station, I expected--nay, I knew I would receive--more depressing news about the shit being done at the highest levels of the U.S. government in my name and using my money. Now every day I turn on the news and hear about, if anything, the shit of the last eight years being reversed bit by bit. I don't overestimate what he is likely to do, but I also don't deny what he has already done. Honestly, he's done more in his first few days (http://news.aol.com/main/inauguration/article/obama-day-one/310532) than I expected him to do in his first few months. Denying this stuff just makes us seem even more irrelevant/out of touch to the mainstream than we already do.

[BobKKKindle$]

Anyone who is not incredibly relieved to have this man in the White House instead of McCain/Palin is simply out of it. There's nothing more to it than thatOn the contrary, there is much more to "it" than that, contrary to what you want to believe. Although it could be argued that Obama is preferable to McCain, the idea that Obama's electoral victory signals the elimination of racism in the US is illusory, and it is also incredibly naive to assume that Obama will be able or willing to follow through on the promises he made prior to the election. Even if Obama is politically committed to reform, such as the introduction of universal health care, and other changes which have the potential to improve the position of the working class, the fundamental constraints imposed by capitalism on the state will prevent him from doing so, especially in the context of a prolonged and deep economic recession. In reality, all of Obama's personnel appointments suggest that he does not aim to change the current direction of American foreign policy, and America will retain its status as the oppressor of millions of workers living in oppressed nations.

[JimmyJazz]

Although it could be argued that Obama is preferable to McCain

Yes, and it could not be argued (by anyone following the news the last few days) that he is not, unless they construct some elaborate argument for why his banning of the use of torture and salary caps for elected officials are somehow moving us further away from socialism.

The rest of your post is just a listing of his shortcomings, which I don't disagree with and which doesn't address my point anyway (my point being that it is a huge fucking relief not to have McCain or Bush in the WH for the next four years).

[Invincible Summer]

Yes, and it could not be argued (by anyone following the news the last few days) that he is not, unless they construct some elaborate argument for why his banning of the use of torture and salary caps for elected officials are somehow moving us further away from socialism.


So.. you're saying that Obama will usher in socialism? Please... state capitalism at most.


You can look at in a couple of ways:

1) Fuck Obama. The Democrats have always just been friendly faces of capitalist imperialism, and Obama is no different. Garnering votes with populist rhetoric, then instilling false hope in the capitalist system by hyperbolizing the benefits of band-aid reforms is just more subtle than the Republican preference to privatize the shit out of everything. Closing Guantanamo is a nice PR move, but how many other secret prisons does the US have?

2) Fuck Obama. At least if the US had Republicans, it would breed better conditions for people to see how fucked up the capitalist system really is.

[ZeroNowhere]

I've been in tears
Hope has died in me
But now I'm here, I don't wish to leave

Trapped in time
A mirage of hope and change
A swirling mass, no mercy now
If the truth hurts, prepare for pain

-Anathema

[Invincible Summer]

I've been in tears
Hope has died in me
But now I'm here, I don't wish to leave

Trapped in time
A mirage of hope and change
A swirling mass, no mercy now
If the truth hurts, prepare for pain

-Anathema


Excellent band

[JimmyJazz]

So.. you're saying that Obama will usher in socialism?

What the hell? Read posts before responding please.

[Invincible Summer]

What the hell? Read posts before responding please.

Your use of double negatives confused me...


Yes, and it could not be argued (by anyone following the news the last few days) that he is not,
Here you are saying that he is preferable to McCain? As in, one can't argue that he is not preferable to McCain?


unless they construct some elaborate argument for why his banning of the use of torture and salary caps for elected officials are somehow moving us further away from socialism.
I interpret this as you saying that his ban on torture and salary caps are moving us closer to socialism.

[ZeroNowhere]

Obama didn't ban torture... It was already banned. McCain also wanted to close Gitmo, it would appear. And anyways, a rose by any other name...

[fabiansocialist]

A good picture of the inauguration:

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/hatch_dees.jpg

[JimmyJazz]

McCain also wanted to close Gitmo, it would appear.

Nope, I'm watching him criticize the decision right now. He says he wouldn't have done it. He's also saying he's disappointed about the suspension of military tribunals because they were "just beginning to function".

[ZeroNowhere]

Nope, I'm watching him criticize the decision right now. He says he wouldn't have done it. He's also saying he's disappointed about the suspension of military tribunals because they were "just beginning to function".
I recall him saying, "As you know, I always favored closing of Guantanamo Bay and I still think that we ought to do that."

[JimmyJazz]

Meh. Either way requires taking a politician at his word.

[GPDP]

A good picture of the inauguration:

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/hatch_dees.jpg

The sheep in the background and the messianic imagery are right-on, but the words on the egg reek of NWO tinfoil-hattery from our "libertarian" friends. Maybe we should change them to something else more appropriate, like "American Imperialism".

[JimmyJazz]

^Actually yeah, I just ran across the original source of that pic today, it is from David Icke:

http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/18281

[fabiansocialist]

The sheep in the background and the messianic imagery are right-on, but the words on the egg reek of NWO tinfoil-hattery from our "libertarian" friends. Maybe we should change them to something else more appropriate, like "American Imperialism".

I agree. But it's the best I could find. Actually, come to think of it, what is the fine distinction between American imperialism and the NWO?

[ZeroNowhere]

I agree. But it's the best I could find. Actually, come to think of it, what is the fine difference between American imperialism and the NWO?
Personally, I prefer this one:
http://letterstoadyingdream.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/obama-communist1.jpg

Ehm, anyways, the excitement seems to be dying down a little around here.

[GPDP]

I agree. But it's the best I could find. Actually, come to think of it, what is the fine distinction between American imperialism and the NWO?

One is based on a rational analysis of the projection of American power abroad, and its relation to the capitalist relations inherent to said power projection, while the other is little more than conspiracy theories founded on misconceptions and misguided attempts to search for "loose change", often with an ideological agenda which further narrows down and simplifies the analysis.

[Paradox]

Aside from all the obvious talk of false hope and the fact that Obama's politics are hardly any different than those of any other politician, I'm also still thinking about the consequences of Obama's election in terms of race relations. Not in the sense that Obama is the first African-American/non-White president in the history of the United States and how great that's being portrayed by the media and whatnot, but rather in terms of how he will be judged and scrutinized and what these judgments might mean for race issues in the future. Obama obviously talked nice and filled people's ears with wonderful sounding words, but when it becomes clear that he's not the messiah everyone has comed to believe he is, and when he does much the same as any other president has done, as any other representative of the system which is responsible for our woes, what consequences might this have on racial issues? I expect Obama will be judged more harshly simply because he is African-American, further revealing how silly it is that "racism has been conquered," as some have suggested. This then might worsen racial tensions, further hampering a united working class movement. Perhaps I'm reading too much into the situation, but it is a rather disappointing and vexing predicament.

[Nosotros]

Obama will not bring any fundamental changes - he may make some minor adjustments to the way capitalism is run, but at the end of the day he is a member of exactly the same class as Bush and all the other presidents who have willingly oppressed the working people of the world on behalf of the American bourgeoisie, and this is what revolutionaries need to be explaining to people who have fallen under the illusion that radical change can be achieved within the existing political framework of capitalist society. The extent of Obama's continuity with previous administrations and the historic trajectory of American foreign policy can be shown by his cabinet appointments - Rahm Emanuel served in the IDF and has been appointed as Obama’s chief of staff, suggesting that Obama plans to maintain close military and diplomatic links with Israel, which makes perfect sense from the viewpoint of the American bourgeoisie, whom Obama represents, as Israel exists to protect the strategic interests of the US in the Middle East. Obama is also likely to retain Robert Gates, foreign secretary under Bush, against the naive wishes of those who predict that Obama will withdraw troops from occupied Iraq. The impending economic crisis will severely restrict Obama's ability to implement domestic reforms such as universal healthcare provision and an increase in the minimum wage because capital will strengthen downwards pressure on working conditions in order to deal with a declining rate of profit and the threat of bankruptcy.

Your naivety is disgusting.I find telling ppl to fuck off in private messages discusting myself, aswell as very cowardly and stupid.