Are prison guards bad?

[spartan]

Are prison guards bad?

Is the role they serve (being charged with the responsibility of the supervision, safety and security of prisoners in a prison, jail or other secure enviroment) a bad one?

Are they as reactionary as the Police?

[Annie K.]

The fact that they live in direct contact with the failure of the capitalist society, added with the total lack of prestige of their job, make them generally less reactionnary than the police. But they are to be erased as a social category along with the prisons. Participating in the existence of a totalitarian environment is always a bad role to serve.


Watch this.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xczdr_genet-un-chant-damour_shortfilms

[Delirium]

Its hard to say if they are more reactionary than the police. One exists to arrest marginal populations, the other to keep them in prison. They are bad in the sense that they work to uphold the existing order by imprisoning poor and minority populations that are not useful to capitalism.

On an individual level im sure that some of them are just plain evil. Most people conform to social pressure, under different situations most of them probably wouldn't brutalize their fellow man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

[LOLseph Stalin]

I don't see prison guards as "bad" per se, but as fellow proletarians working, trying to survive in a Capitalist society. If they be oppressive alot of the time they're probably just doing what they're ordered to do by the reactionary pigs. The Reactionaries probably arrest those people in the first place, because they see them as a threat to Capitalism, not to society.

[Bitter Ashes]

As individuals, I think that it's highly likely that prison guards have a certain mean streak to them. I definatly dont think it's a political thing, but more of a way for them to make money from bieng bullies.
Remember, the ones who really believe in the bourgeous are probably going to be bourgeous themselves or active members of the main parties. I doubt they'd waste time earning minimum wage to get spitted on in a jail

[hugsandmarxism]

Stanford prison study, anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

"Normal" people in the role of prison guards became sadists, the prisoners became psychological wrecks. The profession brings out the worst in people, and seems to attract those with a lust for power over others (as it does in police work) so I'd say they're on par.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Lust for power, or lust for justice. The latter categorization isn't necessarily bad. I don't buy into the idea most prison guards (or cops) are power-hungry fucks. I think most have a set instinct on what should be justice.

Let's face it. Being a prison guard is probably one of the shittiest jobs someone could go through, and a lot of it has to do with the situation they're faced with. Law enforcement agents oftentimes are nice, generous individuals. Are we really upset at special crime units who track down rapists, for example?

[LOLseph Stalin]

Why have prison guards when we can just send all the criminals to Siberian Gulags? :tt2: hehe.

[Black Sheep]

Are prison guards bad?
What the fuck does 'bad' mean?


Is the role they serve (being charged with the responsibility of the supervision, safety and security of prisoners in a prison, jail or other secure enviroment) a bad one?
Wtf is a bad role? They just perform a parasitic job, as many others in the capitalist system.


Are they as reactionary as the Police?
I wouldn't say that.Since their potential for violence is rather limited, i doubt they can pose a serious threat to a class-concious proletarian majority.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Fuck the screws.

[Nils T.]

Yes, screw the fucks.

[Tjis]

Prison guards have the authority to oppress a part of the working class. Therefore they're not part of the working class.
Sure, they're just carrying out the policy our rulers set, but they still get privileges that the working class doesn't get. They're just as inherently reactionary as the police.

[Led Zeppelin]

Are prison guards bad?

Is the role they serve (being charged with the responsibility of the supervision, safety and security of prisoners in a prison, jail or other secure enviroment) a bad one?

Are they as reactionary as the Police?

Well, the role of prison-guards is to make sure that the people arrested by the police remain locked up. The sole purpose of their existence is to ensure the negation of freedom of others. That is definitely something bad and reactionary.

[Kernewek]

I spose this is pretty much the same as the debate about prisons, under the current system prisons are terrible, and the guards are a big part of the problem, not to say they're all bad as individuals, but as whole they're bad

however I feel prisons are essential to society, and if you have prisons someone has to guard them, but a prison guards job should be to protect prisoners and to help their rehabilitation into society. Not to fuck them up even more so they leave prison worse off than when they went in

[brigadista]

they are certainly brutalised by the job they do..much like slaughterhouse workers

[StalinFanboy]

I honestly don't care whether they are working class or not. Just because someone is working class doesn't make them my friend or comrade. If you read the accounts of people who have been in prison (and not just political prisoners) it is pretty evident that prison guards are fucked up. They are extremely brutal, a lot of them are white supremacists, they encourage the gangs that split the prison population, and they play on bigotries such as homophobia, racism, and sexism.

[StalinFanboy]

I spose this is pretty much the same as the debate about prisons, under the current system prisons are terrible, and the guards are a big part of the problem, not to say they're all bad as individuals, but as whole they're bad

however I feel prisons are essential to society, and if you have prisons someone has to guard them, but a prison guards job should be to protect prisoners and to help their rehabilitation into society. Not to fuck them up even more so they leave prison worse off than when they went in
No.

[brigadista]

I honestly don't care whether they are working class or not. Just because someone is working class doesn't make them my friend or comrade. If you read the accounts of people who have been in prison (and not just political prisoners) it is pretty evident that prison guards are fucked up. They are extremely brutal, a lot of them are white supremacists, they encourage the gangs that split the prison population, and they play on bigotries such as homophobia, racism, and sexism.

those are the terms of their employment

[StalinFanboy]

those are the terms of their employment
Your point? I think it says a lot about someone who stays in that job.

[brigadista]

I spose this is pretty much the same as the debate about prisons, under the current system prisons are terrible, and the guards are a big part of the problem, not to say they're all bad as individuals, but as whole they're bad

however I feel prisons are essential to society, and if you have prisons someone has to guard them, but a prison guards job should be to protect prisoners and to help their rehabilitation into society. Not to fuck them up even more so they leave prison worse off than when they went in

i disagree when would a prison in a capitalist society be about "rehabilitation"?

the question is why people are IN prison..under no circumstances is the prison system set up to rehabilitate anyone even if the system publicises it that way-it is propaganda and more about the effect that propaganda has on those not in prison.

[brigadista]

Your point? I think it says a lot about someone who stays in that job.

their job is to divide and rule... im not disagreeing with you

[StalinFanboy]

Oh lols. My bad.

[Kernewek]

No.

sorry, what are dissagreeing with?
the idea we need prisons to seperate dangerous people from society, or the idea that we should try help them while in prison?


i disagree when would a prison in a capitalist society be about "rehabilitation"?

the question is why people are IN prison..under no circumstances is the prison system set up to rehabilitate anyone even if the system publicises it that way-it is propaganda and more about the effect that propaganda has on those not in prison.
I agree, the current system is is a fucking joke

I'm saying that prison should be about rehabilitation to help criminals get back on their feet and eliminate the need to re-offend

[brigadista]

sorry, what are dissagreeing with?
the idea we need prisons to seperate dangerous people from society, or the idea that we should try help them while in prison?


I agree, the current system is is a fucking joke

I'm saying that prison should be about rehabilitation to help criminals get back on their feet and eliminate the need to re-offend


i quoted this elsewhere but i will again
"Jails and prisons are designed to break human beings, to convert the population into specimens in a zoo - obedient to our keepers, but dangerous to each other" Angela Davis

[Kernewek]

some people are dangerous, these people need to be separated from the general population

[brigadista]

some people are dangerous, these people need to be separated from the general population

says who exactly and based on what?

eg :http://www.freethefive.org/

i beleive currently being kept in indefinite solitary confinement..

[Kernewek]

what's that got to do with anything? I'm not saying we should keep the current prison system, how many times do I have to repeat myself?

what I am saying is that someone who likes to rape children, or someone who has a nasty habit of stabbing people should be seperated from society

[communick]

Anyone who has done any jail time knows the answer to this question.

[bcbm]

what I am saying is that someone who likes to rape children, or someone who has a nasty habit of stabbing people should be seperated from society

And placed in a confined space with other violent or otherwise impaired individuals? People are generally violent because of their material conditions and we nee to alter those, not lock people up whether its friendly or not. For those whom it is a psychological issue different steps will be taken but putting people in cages is never the answer.

[Kernewek]

And placed in a confined space with other violent or otherwise impaired individuals? People are generally violent because of their material conditions and we nee to alter those, not lock people up whether its friendly or not. For those whom it is a psychological issue different steps will be taken but putting people in cages is never the answer.

not all crime has a material basis, sorry but if you think eliminating poverty will end crime you're incredibly naïve. Yes people who are violent are usually violent for a reason and they need help not punishment, however if they are dangerous they need to be separated from the general public for the publics safety

those with mental health problems need to go to a hospital rather than prisons

[brigadista]

most people in prison have mental health problems

[communick]

most people in prison have mental health problems

You obviously don't know anybody who is or has ever been in prison.

Most people in prison are working poor with shitty luck.

[communick]

If you want to see some of the scum of society, just go to a prison...

...at shift change.

-Paul Harvey

[brigadista]

You obviously don't know anybody who is or has ever been in prison.

Most people in prison are working poor with shitty luck.


i regularly visit

[brigadista]

if you are not mentally ill when you go in - you are likely to be when you get out.

[bcbm]

not all crime has a material basis, sorry but if you think eliminating poverty will end crime you're incredibly naïve.

Do you know what "generally" means? Its in the bit you quoted and suggests I am not saying all crime has such a basis.


Yes people who are violent are usually violent for a reason and they need help not punishment, however if they are dangerous they need to be separated from the general public for the publics safety

And locked in cages with other dangerous people?


those with mental health problems need to go to a hospital rather than prisons

Yeah, "hospitals" for those with mental health problems have always been kind, lovely places too.

[Kernewek]

most people in prison have mental health problems
many do

what's your point?



Do you know what "generally" means? Its in the bit you quoted and suggests I am not saying all crime has such a basis.

then you agree we will still have crime under a socilist economy, what would you sugest we do about it?


And locked in cages with other dangerous people?

the alternative?



Yeah, "hospitals" for those with mental health problems have always been kind, lovely places too.
so you think we need to get rid of mental hospitals aswell? so what's going to happen to the mentaly ill, leave them untreated?

[bcbm]

then you agree we will still have crime under a socilist economy, what would you sugest we do about it?

Of course crime will still occur but it will be significantly lessened. I suggest that individual communities will probably figure out the best way to deal with specific crimes but in general some form of rehabilitation that maintains a level of interaction and contribution to society.


the alternative?

Figuring out how to help people instead of simply punishing them?


so you think we need to get rid of mental hospitals aswell? so what's going to happen to the mentaly ill, leave them untreated?

Yes, clearly that is what I was suggesting. No, of course people who need help should get it but locking them away from society is not a solution at all. Treatment can occur within the community.

[Nils T.]

Yes, clearly that is what I was suggesting. No, of course people who need help should get it but locking them away from society is not a solution at all. Treatment can occur within the community.
In fact, that would be a good way to put our revolution to the test - and see if we actually built a society that is not based on exclusion.

[Kernewek]

Of course crime will still occur but it will be significantly lessened. I suggest that individual communities will probably figure out the best way to deal with specific crimes but in general some form of rehabilitation that maintains a level of interaction and contribution to society.

of course rehabilitation should be the focus, however a dangerous individual needs to be separated from society whilst they are being rehabilitated

once the individual is no longer a danger they can once again get involved with the community



Figuring out how to help people instead of simply punishing them?

this is what I've been saying from the start



Yes, clearly that is what I was suggesting. No, of course people who need help should get it but locking them away from society is not a solution at all. Treatment can occur within the community.
if the person poses no threat to the community then of course locking them away isn't the solution


however if you're trying to treat a paranoid schizophrenic who is convinced that everyone around him is conspiring against them, they may not be that cooperative, they can pose a danger both to themselves and the people around them. While they are being treated they need to be separated from the public, once they are more stable they can be reintroduced to society whilst continuing their treatment

[Nils T.]

if you're trying to treat a paranoid schizophrenic who is convinced that everyone around him is conspiring against them......then perhaps conspiring against paranoid schizophrenics is not the best solution.


however a dangerous individual needs to be separated from society whilst they are being rehabilitatedTeaching autonomy by suppressing it is also a great idea.
Anyway, I think the difference between isolation and separation here needs to be outlined. The nice men in white blouses with needles full of lemonade are a part of the society. They just are the class that separates two other classes of people : the dangerous deviants, who can't be part of our community, and the normal people who need to be protected. Obviously this system include each class in the same society, and the separation exist only between the last two, and for a large as a symbolic level. Your proposition is only one way the normal society can interact with deviant elements. Replacing the blouses with the entire community is another one.

What reason have we to establish again such a separation ?
Danger is a bad one, since the shrinks would still be in danger. So why this need ?

[Kernewek]

...then perhaps conspiring against paranoid schizophrenics is not the best solution.

if they aren't going to accept treatment then what options do we have? treat them against their will or leave them untreated?



Teaching autonomy by suppressing it is also a great idea.
Anyway, I think the difference between isolation and separation here needs to be outlined. The nice men in white blouses with needles full of lemonade are a part of the society. They just are the class that separates two other classes of people : the dangerous deviants, who can't be part of our community, and the normal people who need to be protected. Obviously this system include each class in the same society, and the separation exist only between the last two, and for a large as a symbolic level. Your proposition is only one way the normal society can interact with deviant elements. Replacing the blouses with the entire community is another one.

The idea of prison shouldn't be to institutionalise people but instead focus on getting them back into society. Prisoners that are no longer dangerous can be let out to involve themselves with the community, who themselves need to be involved in criminal rehabilitation, one of the many flaws in our current system is the stigma attached to ex-criminals and the lack of support they receive when leaving prison.

prison is only the start of rehabilitation, once someone leaves they should have the support of both the prison staff and the community as whole to support their reintegration into society



What reason have we to establish again such a separation ?
Danger is a bad one, since the shrinks would still be in danger. So why this need ?

for the mentally ill it's for the patients own good, they are a danger to both themselves and others and need treatment

the danger they pose is a perfectly valid reason to lock them up, less people are in danger, those who are in regular contact with them are trained to deal with them so they are in less danger than the general public would be and the person locked up will be receiving treatment which will make them less dangerous and in the long run will improve the quality of their life

[Nils T.]

if they aren't going to accept treatment then what options do we have? treat them against their will or leave them untreated?If we have only the two options, leaving them untreated is the best one. Rehabilitation, as education, should be a voluntary process in a free society. I don't want to impose to the people the choice between denying that they see nazis in UFOs talking to them, or spending the rest of the lives in a cold room with cold food and cold drugs. I just want them to feel good and to let others feel the same. Then we have a third option. Treatment is an authoritarian decision, and carry the usual problems due to authority. Accomodating them is the revolutionnarily simple solution.


Prisoners that are no longer dangerous can be let out to involve themselves with the communityHow does that works ? Where I live, since the last presidential election, the media treat it as a big event each time someone recently liberated from an institution or a regular prison commits a crime, and the right-wing governement use the polemic to pose as a protector of the normal people in danger against the laxist judges, psychiatrists, and the tolerance inherited from the last 50 years. How can you detect which prisonners are dangerous, and how can you avoid fearmongering against a population that you separate from the one with political access ? The stigma is created by the separation : that's why the new prisons in advanced capitalist countries are not built close to the big cities, and that's why during the last centuries the executions were closed to the public. If you make two groups and say to the first that the second is dangerous, obviously you're not creating a sound community, you're just creating classes of people and the space needed for a class dedicated to exert a power to separate other classes. What we fight in capitalism is not only exploitation, it is also this type of separation.


prison is only the start of rehabilitation, once someone leaves they should have the support of both the prison staff and the community as whole to support their reintegration into societyEveryone should have the support of the whole community. That's the freedom we want against the current and flawed one.


for the mentally ill it's for the patients own good, they are a danger to both themselves and others and need treatmentI'm also a danger for myself and others and I assure you that you'd be wrong to consider that a life behind bars is good for me.

the danger they pose is a perfectly valid reason to lock them up, less people are in danger, those who are in regular contact with them are trained to deal with them so they are in less danger than the general public would be and the person locked up will be receiving treatment which will make them less dangerous and in the long run will improve the quality of their lifeReal therapeutic treatment would not make them less dangerous, so by treatment i assume you mean sedatives ? That would make them less dangerous indeed, but in the long run I'm disgusted if you call this a life. And the job of guard in these conditions is not a great one too.
Rotations ? after all communism is also about the abolition of carriers. But that would mean making the general public able to deal with it. That's what we should do - and skip the part about privation of liberty. The general public should disappear, we need a community of citizen not only able to protect itself, but also to guarantee the freedom and well-being of each of its members, and that means everyone, without exclusion. It's not more difficult than enabling workers control.

[Kernewek]

If we have only the two options, leaving them untreated is the best one. Rehabilitation, as education, should be a voluntary process in a free society. I don't want to impose to the people the choice between denying that they see nazis in UFOs talking to them, or spending the rest of the lives in a cold room with cold food and cold drugs. I just want them to feel good and to let others feel the same. Then we have a third option. Treatment is an authoritarian decision, and carry the usual problems due to authority. Accomodating them is the revolutionnarily simple solution.
unfortunately leaving them untreated and trying to get them to feel good aren't compatible

if someones dog is telling them they are wicked sinful individual who needs to kill people to get right with god, then I think it’s fair to assume they aren't all that happy. Doubt their victims or their families would be all that happy either




How does that works ? Where I live, since the last presidential election, the media treat it as a big event each time someone recently liberated from an institution or a regular prison commits a crime, and the right-wing governement use the polemic to pose as a protector of the normal people in danger against the laxist judges, psychiatrists, and the tolerance inherited from the last 50 years.
these are problems with the current system, I don't want to keep the current system, I've said this many times



How can you detect which prisonners are dangerous,

psychological assessments



and how can you avoid fearmongering against a population that you separate from the one with political access ?

education



The stigma is created by the separation : that's why the new prisons in advanced capitalist countries are not built close to the big cities, and that's why during the last centuries the executions were closed to the public.

the fact that people don't like to be around someone who might turn around and stab them also contributes to the stigma

we need a prison system that actually works, if people had faith in the prison system then there would be less prejudice against ex-convicts




If you make two groups and say to the first that the second is dangerous, obviously you're not creating a sound community, you're just creating classes of people and the space needed for a class dedicated to exert a power to separate other classes. What we fight in capitalism is not only exploitation, it is also this type of separation.

leaving the mentally ill untreated and dangerous individuals free to rape and kill isn't going to create a sound community either



I'm also a danger for myself and others and I assure you that you'd be wrong to consider that a life behind bars is good for me.

I don't know you so I can't say




Real therapeutic treatment would not make them less dangerous,

psychedelic therapy has shown great promise in rehabilitating violent criminals, but such therapy is illegal under our capitalist society



so by treatment i assume you mean sedatives ? That would make them less dangerous indeed, but in the long run I'm disgusted if you call this a life.

that's not what I'm talking about at all



And the job of guard in these conditions is not a great one too.
Rotations ? after all communism is also about the abolition of carriers. But that would mean making the general public able to deal with it. That's what we should do - and skip the part about privation of liberty. The general public should disappear, we need a community of citizen not only able to protect itself, but also to guarantee the freedom and well-being of each of its members, and that means everyone, without exclusion. It's not more difficult than enabling workers control.

I don't agree with getting rid of careers

I would rather be operated on by a surgeon rather than a well meaning but untrained member of the community, the same way I'd like my mental health problems dealt with by a trained psychiatrist

[Nils T.]

Of course one would not be happy with having a dog ordering him around. But the same way we can get unhappy people that obey still the murderous orders of some people in uniforms to join our side, we can get anyone to laugh at a canine pope.

Psychological assessments doesn't work that well. The media I mentionned overvalue the errors, but they exist.
Education is not all-powerful, especially when the values teached (presomption of innocence for former prisonners) contradicts the practices teached (it is danger you propose to punish, not acts). You can'ty simply hope that all the community except the ones dedicated to maintain the separation adopt the value and forget about what they allow to exist behind the walls.
Frankly, if you don't plan to eliminate the judges, the psychiatrists, the governeming organism that give them their instructions, or the media, I consider that you do want to keep the current system.


the fact that people don't like to be around someone who might turn around and stab them also contributes to the stigmaYou're right, and if we have education at our disposal, instead of trying to impose faith in an authority, we should learn to take risks with other humans as well as we take risks with cars and cliffs. Prisons don't supress this risk, and as I said, we need autonomous people to run a communist society, not believers.


leaving the mentally ill untreated and dangerous individuals free to rape and kill isn't going to create a sound community eitherI never said that we should let them free to rape and murder, I said that we should not resolve these problems with prisons and other totalitarian enclaves.


I would rather be operated on by a surgeon rather than a well meaning but untrained member of the community,I don't think that either of us want to treat psychosis by surgery... And I said that we need to create among our community the ability to assure the well being of everyone. If that means training, let's do training.

the same way I'd like my mental health problems dealt with by a trained psychiatrist Trained for which methods ? And how trained would you like your guards (the ones for whom I proposed rotations) ? But you don't have the choice in your system.
Surgery requires more hability, but it's more simple and far less politicized. Different matters, then.

[Kernewek]

Of course one would not be happy with having a dog ordering him around. But the same way we can get unhappy people that obey still the murderous orders of some people in uniforms to join our side, we can get anyone to laugh at a canine pope.

you aren't seriously suggesting we try and get paranoid schizophrenics to laugh at their delusions instead of giving them proper medical treatment?

Even if this idea for treatment would work, what’s to be done with those who are uncooperative?



Psychological assessments doesn't work that well. The media I mentionned overvalue the errors, but they exist.
psychological assessments are reasonably accurate, there are errors but nothings perfect



Education is not all-powerful, especially when the values teached (presomption of innocence for former prisonners) contradicts the practices teached (it is danger you propose to punish, not acts).

these individuals are not bad people but instead have problems they need help to overcome. I propose we give them that help

I fail to see how the values contradict the practices



You can'ty simply hope that all the community except the ones dedicated to maintain the separation adopt the value and forget about what they allow to exist behind the walls.teached (it is danger you propose to punish, not acts).

they shouldn't forget about what's happening in prisons, as I have already said the community as a whole need to play a part in rehabilitation



Frankly, if you don't plan to eliminate the judges, the psychiatrists, the governeming organism that give them their instructions, or the media, I consider that you do want to keep the current system.
except the system I propose is very different to the current system



You're right, and if we have education at our disposal, instead of trying to impose faith in an authority, we should learn to take risks with other humans as well as we take risks with cars and cliffs. Prisons don't supress this risk, and as I said, we need autonomous people to run a communist society, not believers.

The prison system I’m suggesting and the treatments provided would help them become autonomous, I’m not suggesting brainwashing camps




I never said that we should let them free to rape and murder, I said that we should not resolve these problems with prisons and other totalitarian enclaves.

you are saying we should leave them untreated if they don't want to be treated, so you are saying we should do nothing with these individuals, meaning that they would be free to continue killing



I don't think that either of us want to treat psychosis by surgery...
surgery could have potential, but we don't yet know enough about mental illness



And I said that we need to create among our community the ability to assure the well being of everyone. If that means training, let's do training.
Trained for which methods ? And how trained would you like your guards (the ones for whom I proposed rotations) ?
are we talking about a mental hospital or an actual prison here, although prisons should be treated more like hospitals anyway

staff in a mental hospital need to be trained psychiatrists, doctors and nurses. A prison should also have trained psychiatrists amongst it’s staff, but the prison guards themselves need to be trained to help the prisoners and get them out of prison rather than simply keep them under control

the job of prisons shouldn't be to totally separate people from our society it should be to help them get over whatever problem got them in there, although their movement will be controlled at first and they will only have limited involvement with the outside world, they can be granted more freedom as the treatment progresses



But you don't have the choice in your system.
the mentally ill may not be fit to make their own choice



Surgery requires more hability, but it's more simple and far less politicized. Different matters, then.
politics has nothing to do with it, I'm saying medical care is best left to people with medical training