Who ruined the CCCP

[Brother No. 1]

Comrades I want to hear from you this question. who ruined the Soviet union to you. your descision will matter to me.

[scarletghoul]

Lenin

>>

<<

[Panda Tse Tung]

No individual did. That would have been rather silly. But strictly speaking it is Jeltsin 'n Gorbatsjev for A. disbanding the Communist Party and B. disbanding the USSR.

[piet11111]

lenin for his failure to not make sure that the revolution would remain democratic.

[RedAnarchist]

I trashed the copies of this thread.

[Brother No. 1]

there were Copies

[RedAnarchist]

there were Copies

Yeah, you posted the thread three times by accident.

[Tower of Bebel]

Who ruined the USSR? Those who forced the Bolsheviks to defend themselves. The German state socialists for example.

No individual did. That would have been rather silly. But strictly speaking it is Jeltsin 'n Gorbatsjev for A. disbanding the Communist Party and B. disbanding the USSR.
Nikita Khrushchev for hacking and Joseph Stalin for not installing a backup.

[Brother No. 1]

ah that is a good point comrade but whois nikita khrushcev

[An archist]

No individual did. That would have been rather silly. But strictly speaking it is Jeltsin 'n Gorbatsjev for A. disbanding the Communist Party and B. disbanding the USSR.
Indeed, no individual was responsible, it was doomed to fail because the project was simply not good enough. Those in power will never voluntarily give up their power.

[RedAnarchist]

ah that is a good point comrade but whois nikita khrushcev

You've never heard of him?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev

[ZeroNowhere]

""The history of the world is but the biography of great men."

[BPSocialist]

The answer is obvious: STALIN!!!

[Niemand]

The Soviet Union was doomed by Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin. Lenin did his part by merging the government with the Party and thereby opened the door for Stalin to create an oppressive and murderous oligarchy, while Trotsky put too much faith in the camaraderie of his fellow Bolsheviks and ultimately underestimated Stalin's evil.

[Dóchas]

id say stalin did most of the work but lenin didnt help by not putting proper guidlines in place for the people when he died and it seems trotsky was a bit naive about stalin and the bolshevik party and dont forget the US!! they cant have done any good to keep the CCCP going!!

[Robespierre2.0]

It was a small clique of corrupt bureaucrats, with Nikita Kruschev at their head, who dismantled socialism in the USSR in 1953.
Bill Bland has a good article explaining exactly how the Kruschev clique re-introduced capitalism.
http://www.oneparty.co.uk/html/book/ussrmenu.html

God, you people make me facepalm.
http://i.current.com/images/asset/889/368/41/8jLjZQ.jpg

[Brother No. 1]

so nikita did the Anti stalin program didnt know who did that program. if only lenin lived a few more years the CCCP would have been right.

[ZeroNowhere]

so nikita did the Anti stalin program didnt know who did that program. if only lenin lived a few more years the CCCP would have been right.
Unfortunately, my last post was sarcastic. Ah well, you can have your great man theory, just as long as you don't call yourself a historical materialist.
Then again, this thread will probably not evolve into anything rivalling the Stalin thread, in which I recall somebody actually stating, "Stalin was a great man." Ugh.

[Q]

It is not who but what that ruined the Soviet Union. I would agree with Trotsky that it was the isolation of the Russian Revolution into a backward country, torn apart by 8 years of war, that was fundamental to the rise of the bureaucratic stratum that eventually choked the soviet democracy to death (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/).

[Brother No. 1]

who said Stalin was a great man and if the so called "allied powers" did not go to war with the Early CCCP then it would turn out better.

[communard resolution]

It is not who but what that ruined the Soviet Union. I would agree with Trotsky that it was the isolation of the Russian Revolution into a backward country, torn apart by 8 years of war, that was fundamental to the rise of the bureaucratic stratum that eventually choked the soviet democracy to death (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/).

I'd like to know one thing: did Trotsky consider himself to be part of that bureaucracy and therefore part of a problem that inevitably arose under the given conditions? Or did he suggest that the rise of the bureaucracy only occurred once he was out of the picture?

And something else: I remember reading a quote where Trotsky commented on the gradual limitation of the power of the soviets in favour of party power as follows: "the party cannot be expected to subject itself to all the moods and whimses of the workers councils". I wonder what you think of this.

Unfortunalely, I haven't got the source handy, so it's up to you to either trust me or to assume I made it up. If in doubt, just stick with the first question.

[Die Neue Zeit]

While operating in the bureaucracy, Trotsky did indeed consider himself to be part of it rather enthusiastically. Lenin made quite a number of criticisms of Trotsky's role in the bureaucracy.

[Tower of Bebel]

Even when Trotsky started his assault on the party's bureaucracy in the late 20's he did not really mention much about his own involvement with it.

[Led Zeppelin]

God, you people make me facepalm.

And you with your delusional version of history makes everyone else here facepalm, so I guess that means we're even.


While operating in the bureaucracy, Trotsky did indeed consider himself to be part of it rather enthusiastically. Lenin made quite a number of criticisms of Trotsky's role in the bureaucracy.

The same could be said of Lenin participating "in the bureaucracy" and Trotsky "making quite a number of criticisms of Lenin's role in the bureaucracy", just depends who you like or dislike more personally to make such a statement about.

I don't do either because I realize the pettiness and hypocrisy of it.



Even when Trotsky started his assault on the party's bureaucracy in the late 20's he did not really mention much about his own involvement with it.

That's because he had been effectively cut off from any involvement with it when he lost his positions in the state machinery, nevermind the fact that "the bureaucracy" as was written about and criticized by Trotsky and Lenin was more a caste-like social structure than a collection of "positions".

[Die Neue Zeit]

The same could be said of Lenin participating "in the bureaucracy" and Trotsky "making quite a number of criticisms of Lenin's role in the bureaucracy", just depends who you like or dislike more personally to make such a statement about.

I don't do either because I realize the pettiness and hypocrisy of it.

I too have my own criticisms of Lenin's role in the state-capitalist bureaucracy. They just happen to be modern ones (Mike (http://csukblog.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/debating-the-marxist-programme-videos-from-communist-university-north/) Macnair (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/cu/2008/2008%20videos.htm)), because the older criticisms, whatever they may be, are insufficient. As for Trotsky's role, some of the older criticisms are still sufficient.

[Brother No. 1]

so in your oppion comrade Lenin was bad.

[punisa]

Who ruined CCCP?
1.USA.
There was a great deal of undermining the system from the very beginnings.
2.Gorbachov
- his democratic ideas only opened the doors for new russian mafia
3. Soviet people
- "Hmm... maybe I could have a bigger car? Better job? Bigger house? Luxurious boat? Gimme ! Gimme !".
- That element ruined all socialist governments in Europe. Until we find the way to make people understand humanity,unity and socialist values all other projects will fail.

[Brother No. 1]

I agree on #1 and #2 but still cant understand #3

[punisa]

I agree on #1 and #2 but still cant understand #3

Hey comrade, it took me years to understand #3 in my personal example (Yugoslavia). Well, the facts is I understood it right away, but took me years to finally admit it to myself.

The working class is the most powerful element in every country, but seldom doesn't understand it.
Problem is - masses do not understand socialism, do not know how to defend it.
And what is most important - they get easily seduced by capitalism.

The whole European socialist block (people) got seduced by propaganda almost over night.

Ex Soviet (and Yugoslav) republics have some of the "wildest" capitalism in the world (you know that comrade), if we can change the people then we can change the system.

But as of today your average citizen doesn't care for homeless or unemployed, they just care about their fat ass.
A clever man wrote in a socialist paper last month - what we have in Eastern Europe is "turbo capitalism", people want to somehow transform themselves and become Americans (at least in a way US propaganda shows them).

These people, or should we better say - these mind frames, are and must be held responsible for the collapse of the socialist block.

When one can change this fake and unreal ideals people have, then we can create a socialist rule again.

supplemental:
I think you can actually pair #1 and #3 together.

[Brother No. 1]

now I understand and I am sick off The USA the lies and crouption It is very much for me to take still now I get it and thank you.

[punisa]

now I understand and I am sick off The USA the lies and crouption It is very much for me to take still now I get it and thank you.

It's just my personal observation anyway. I'd never push is as the ultimate "truth".
USA has a great potential as a country to develop socialism on its own. But it all comes down to people, when the US citizens start to think differently, change will happen.

Change will happen? Jeez... am I quoting Obama here? Totally coincidental :laugh:

[Pogue]

Combination of:

-Russia being isolated due to failure of the German revolution
-Lack of real worker control
-Crushing of Kronstadt
-Allowing society/the party to be dominated by a few
-General Bolshevik tactics of giving power to a few
-Stalin being a dickhead

If the German Revolution suceeded and others happened the USSR would still have the problems of Lenin, Trotsky etc being too authoritarian and state focused, but even if Trotsky and Lenin were mroe democratic and the Russian society was fully controlled by the Soviets and the German revolution failed shit would have gone wrong.

Isolation, lack of democracy and Stalin being counter-revolutionary caused it to fail.

[communard resolution]

Who ruined CCCP?
1.USA.

Before the next revolution, let's bomb the USA first.


his democratic ideas only opened the doors for new russian mafiaThat's why there should be as little democracy as humanly possible.



Soviet peopleYeah, those bastards should have been kept in check more efficiently. How about we try without the people next time around? And without soviets, of course.

[Pogue]

Who ruined CCCP?
1.USA.
There was a great deal of undermining the system from the very beginnings.
2.Gorbachov
- his democratic ideas only opened the doors for new russian mafia
3. Soviet people
- "Hmm... maybe I could have a bigger car? Better job? Bigger house? Luxurious boat? Gimme ! Gimme !".
- That element ruined all socialist governments in Europe. Until we find the way to make people understand humanity,unity and socialist values all other projects will fail.

Although I agree capitalism has led to humanity becoming very self-centered and materialistic, in a reigme which never actually got round to practicising socialism or liberaitng the workers I think its natural for the people to want the same material posessions as people in other countries had and thus it is unfair to blame the Soviet people for the fall of the USSR, when they were the ones being oppresed by it, not being serve dby it.

[Brother No. 1]

I think boris Ylestin is the Cause of Problem #3 and maybe mikhail.

[rednordman]

Hey comrade, it took me years to understand #3 in my personal example (Yugoslavia). Well, the facts is I understood it right away, but took me years to finally admit it to myself.

The working class is the most powerful element in every country, but seldom doesn't understand it.
Problem is - masses do not understand socialism, do not know how to defend it.
And what is most important - they get easily seduced by capitalism.

The whole European socialist block (people) got seduced by propaganda almost over night.

Ex Soviet (and Yugoslav) republics have some of the "wildest" capitalism in the world (you know that comrade), if we can change the people then we can change the system.

But as of today your average citizen doesn't care for homeless or unemployed, they just care about their fat ass.
A clever man wrote in a socialist paper last month - what we have in Eastern Europe is "turbo capitalism", people want to somehow transform themselves and become Americans (at least in a way US propaganda shows them).

These people, or should we better say - these mind frames, are and must be held responsible for the collapse of the socialist block.

When one can change this fake and unreal ideals people have, then we can create a socialist rule again.

supplemental:
I think you can actually pair #1 and #3 together.
Totally agree. Good post. Funnily enough, this is has also happened in countries that there not communist in the first place, but not overtly fond of capitalism either.
Take Norway, where my mother is from for example. It generally (from my experience) has always taken a very reserved attitude to capitalism and although having a free market, there was always a strong union movement at work (up to 1990 anyway, im not very sure how things are now, but im pretty sure there is still very low unemployment), and the uber-rich there where generally detested and not trusted by most of the country (unless they provided alot of secure jobs, invested in local communities etc).
The country used to be renown for having a very good government with socialistic polices, but now everything is getting raped by mass privitisation, and the most popular parties in politics are the seemingly reformed arbaider party (just like new labour in uk) and the ultra neo-liberal 'progress party' headed by Siv Jensen. Like you said, eveyone there is getting highly seduced by this whole 'american dream' ideal that is constantly advertised there.
Also as you have stated in that post, the people there seem to be rather self obsessed and quite reactionary in some cases, and have less sympathy than they used to.
I must state that this is only my interperation of things over there, and not necersarilly the complete truth (would like any norwegiens/skandinavians to give their opinions on the state of things there, to give a fuller picture, even if it proves my post wrong).
It is a shame though, Norway from my memory was a nicer place (imo) around 10-15 years ago, nowadays its just as trashy and capitalised as any place in the west at the moment.

[punisa]

Totally agree. Good post. Funnily enough, this is has also happened in countries that there not communist in the first place, but not overtly fond of capitalism either.
Take Norway, where my mother is from for example. It generally (from my experience) has always taken a very reserved attitude to capitalism and although having a free market, there was always a strong union movement at work (up to 1990 anyway, im not very sure how things are now, but im pretty sure there is still very low unemployment), and the uber-rich there where generally detested and not trusted by most of the country (unless they provided alot of secure jobs, invested in local communities etc).
The country used to be renown for having a very good government with socialistic polices, but now everything is getting raped by mass privitisation, and the most popular parties in politics are the seemingly reformed arbaider party (just like new labour in uk) and the ultra neo-liberal 'progress party' headed by Siv Jensen. Like you said, eveyone there is getting highly seduced by this whole 'american dream' ideal that is constantly advertised there.
Also as you have stated in that post, the people there seem to be rather self obsessed and quite reactionary in some cases, and have less sympathy than they used to.
I must state that this is only my interperation of things over there, and not necersarilly the complete truth (would like any norwegiens/skandinavians to give their opinions on the state of things there, to give a fuller picture, even if it proves my post wrong).
It is a shame though, Norway from my memory was a nicer place (imo) around 10-15 years ago, nowadays its just as trashy and capitalised as any place in the west at the moment.

You have a very good point there actually. Self obsession took place all over the world. I travelled Europe even before the socialism collapsed and besides many countries I've been where indeed capitalist (Austria, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, France) - hard work was praised and looked upon to. Nowadays, in those same countries there is a rising attitude that if you don't get rich quick, you're probably a fool.

[punisa]

Before the next revolution, let's bomb the USA first.

That's why there should be as little democracy as humanly possible.

Yeah, those bastards should have been kept in check more efficiently. How about we try without the people next time around? And without soviets, of course.

:rolleyes: If I love anything more then your sarcasm then it's your avatar :thumbup:

But seriously, you know that my numeration was oversimplified anyway, I tried to explain it in more details in the next post.

[ZeroNowhere]

I travelled Europe even before the socialism collapsed and besides many countries I've been where indeed socialist (Austria, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, France) - hard work was praised and looked upon to.
What was there in it for us non-Puritans?

[Das war einmal]

Its un-marxist to just blame it all on one person, the soviet society itself is to blame, but more so, the external powers who did everything it could to destroy socialism.

[Das war einmal]

Boris Jeltsin or Gorbachev never had the intention to bring democracy to the CCCP. That was (and Gorbachev himself atmitted that) a big fat lie to destroy socialism and restore capitalism. In the 1996 elections Jeltsin falsely won the 'democratic' ellections by any means possible to prevent the CP from winning. So, the bourgeios media telling us that Putin is 'going back' to 'old times' is just plain hilarious.

[communard resolution]

Its un-marxist to just blame it all on one person, the soviet society itself is to blame, but more so, the external powers who did everything it could to destroy socialism.

Regarding 'Stalin = bad, but Lenin or Trotsky = good': if the Soviet system could so easily be abused by Stalin and his cronies, what does that say about the system?

Regarding 'revisionists and traitors = bad': if capitalism can be so easily restored by a ruling clique, what does that say about the system?

Regarding 'Soviet people = bad': if a society wishes the destruction of a system that it considers itself trapped in, what does that say about the system in question?


Maybe it wasn't really that good to begin with?

[Sarah Palin]

I can't agree with those who said Lenin. It was quite obviously Stalin, what with stacking the party with his supporters and turning the country into a totalitarian state. If you didn't know, Lenin tried to stop Stalin.

[Robespierre2.0]

How did Lenin try to stop Stalin? His last testament criticized practically everyone, you know.

Also, Lenin was as 'totalitarian' as Stalin, if you really insist on using that liberal buzzword.

[Bilan]

Material conditions.
Bastards.

[punisa]

Its un-marxist to just blame it all on one person, the soviet society itself is to blame, but more so, the external powers who did everything it could to destroy socialism.

agreed

[punisa]

What was there in it for us non-Puritans?

Sorry I had a typo, I meant that those countries were capitalist, not socialist - sorry :lol:

[Brother No. 1]

lenin say stalin was a threat and must be removed but no one did anything to stop him.

[rednordman]

lenin say stalin was a threat and must be removed but no one did anything to stop him. This is actually true. And from what i'v read from even non-biast sources, he was very concerned aswell. He also wasnt that keen on Trotsky becoming leader either and saw their spat as something completely counter-productive to the future of the USSR, but thats another arguement and story entirely.
As for the reasons that it failed...im pretty at war when thinking about it in all honesty. I for one, like other do consider the west and usa mainly having a huge effect. Like Punisa said, people in Russia and other parts of the Eastern Block really did get believe that life in the west was like a movie with a happy ending with no problems what so ever and that they had absolutly nothing, other than government restriction (Moskvo on the Hudsen anyone?). I think this fantasy died very very quickly after the fall of the USSR.
When talking to one of my brothers about it, he believes that the sole reason was corruption, but i think there is much more to it than that. After all it is possible to police and prevent/control problems like that.
I do think in some senses that the Government of the USSR was too harsh on its people in the way of not encouraging people to come up and go ahead with ideas as to make their lives better. Please dont misunderstand, i'm not talking about capitalism here, but i'v heard that all through the history of USSR (especially during stalins era) people who supplied ideas where often seen as 'suspects', with out the state considering whether or not their ideas where socialistic/capitalistic.

[rednordman]

You have a very good point there actually. Self obsession took place all over the world. I travelled Europe even before the socialism collapsed and besides many countries I've been where indeed capitalist (Austria, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, France) - hard work was praised and looked upon to. Nowadays, in those same countries there is a rising attitude that if you don't get rich quick, you're probably a fool.
Its funny, everyone wants something for nothing, and if it they dont even look good doing it, forget it. Everythings got to be 'sexy', 'sick' and 'in your face' and everyone has got to know about it, else it just aint worth it. And i'm stuck in a warehouse working my gonads off for poor money and am a 'fool' for it...what the heck happened to the world:crying:.

[Brother No. 1]

I dont know.

[RedSabine]

Bolsheviks ruined the USSR.

[Honggweilo]

Bogovich ruined the USSR

[piet11111]

Its un-marxist to just blame it all on one person, the soviet society itself is to blame, but more so, the external powers who did everything it could to destroy socialism.

true but the thread's OP asked for a who and not a what so staying true to the purpose of the thread i put down lenin as the seeds for the fall of the ussr where sown under his watch.

[ZeroNowhere]

true but the thread's OP asked for a who and not a what so staying true to the purpose of the thread i put down lenin as the seeds for the fall of the ussr where sown under his watch.
Besides the point. If somebody asks 'Was Hitler awesome or really, really fucking awesome?', that doesn't mean that you have to answer with one of the options, you can just say that it's a stupid question. It's the same here.

[Mike666]

Lenin.

[Charles Xavier]

1. Imperialism, intensing external contradictions on the world stage, while trying at all times to subvert the government.

2. Opportunism within Government. Why would you sell out for just 2 weeks extra vacation when you can be captains of industry?

If you think this is one clique or one person that caused it you are a philistine. It wasn't Stalin, Lenin, Khrushchev, Gorbachev, Yelstin, Reagan, The Pope or whoever that caused the USSR to be overthrown if you believe that you do not understand historical materialism. Perhaps this or that thing happened under this or that persons leadership. Does it mean they were the sole person responsible? Of course not, the building of socialism was done by the Soviet people. Its overthrow likewise, while may have been planned of various parties for many years, it fault lies with the soviet people and their failure to moblize against the forces of reaction.

It must be clear though, the Soviet Union didn't collaspe out of flawed economics, it was overthrown. A coup d'etat.

[RedSonRising]

I blame Lenin for allowing the theory of a Vanguard party; such a practice opened the door wide open for dictatorial infiltration from Stalin, or anyone else who might have taken his place. However I dont lose any respect for Lenin in this case, I just think that he was wrong and made a fatal mistake.

But if Lenin neglected leaving a gun up for grabs, Stalin fingerprints are all over it. Im not sure how successful the NEP would have been in the long run, but surely Lenin was learning from the errors of State Socialism in its early stages and was prepared to alter the revolution to ensure the survival of Socialism...except he got a stroke (or 2..or 8...) so the person to blame is Stalin in my opinion, Lenin simply unknowingly created a system for such a power to rise.

Poor Trotsky looked on and wasnt able to do much...many blame him for not reacting strongly enough but I beleive his convictions would have driven him to do all that he could to save the revolution.

[ZeroNowhere]

Poor Trotsky looked on and wasnt able to do much...many blame him for not reacting strongly enough but I beleive his convictions would have driven him to do all that he could to save the revolution.
Nah, he would've just did the same things as Stalin. Perhaps his "powerful convictions" may (repeat, may) have led him to implement inner-party democracy, but that's about it.


But if Lenin neglected leaving a gun up for grabs, Stalin fingerprints are all over it. Im not sure how successful the NEP would have been in the long run, but surely Lenin was learning from the errors of State Socialism in its early stages and was prepared to alter the revolution to ensure the survival of Socialism..
Well, other than a lack of materialism, you also seem to be calling the NEP 'socialism'. I am hoping that you did not mean that. Perhaps War 'Communism' was socialism, then?

[Bilan]

Who ruined CCCP?
1.USA.
There was a great deal of undermining the system from the very beginnings.
2.Gorbachov
- his democratic ideas only opened the doors for new russian mafia
3. Soviet people
- "Hmm... maybe I could have a bigger car? Better job? Bigger house? Luxurious boat? Gimme ! Gimme !".
- That element ruined all socialist governments in Europe. Until we find the way to make people understand humanity,unity and socialist values all other projects will fail.

Socialism is not a barracks. You make me ill. Try reading Marx instead of that despotic shit which influenced your horrendous position.

[RedSonRising]

I meant as a rescue to the future of socialism in the USSR.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Comrades I want to hear from you this question. who ruined the Soviet union to you. your descision will matter to me.

Definitely Stalin for not letting the revolution spread. Also because he gave way too much power to the Communist party rather than to the Soviets/proletariats.

[Charles Xavier]

Definitely Stalin for not letting the revolution spread. Also because he gave way too much power to the Communist party rather than to the Soviets/proletariats.


With the exception to Bulgaria, Romania, East Germany, Poland, Czechoslavakia, attempted help to Republicans in Spain, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Albania, China, Korea, assistance to anti-imperialist forces in Africa and Asia.

And with the exception that the Soviets did have power and the proletariat was in control, and you are being metaphysical pretending Stalin was some wizard who magically controlled everythingn in the whole world.

And for not having faith in the People for taking control.