UK Jewish lawmaker: Israeli forces acting like Nazis

[Led Zeppelin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8



LONDON, England (CNN) -- Israeli military action in Gaza is comparable to that of German soldiers during the Holocaust, a Jewish UK lawmaker whose family suffered at the hands of the Nazis has claimed.

Gerald Kaufman, a member of the UK's ruling Labour Party, also called for an arms embargo on Israel, currently fighting militant Palestinian group Hamas, during the debate in the British parliament Thursday.

"My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed," said Kaufman, who added that he had friends and family in Israel and had been there "more times than I can count."

"My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza (http://topics.edition.cnn.com/topics/Gaza_Strip)."

Kaufman, a senior Labour politician who was raised as an Orthodox Jew, has often opposed Israeli (http://topics.edition.cnn.com/topics/Israel) policy throughout his career.

Israel has said it initiated the operation into Gaza -- which is controlled by Hamas -- to stop rocket fire on its southern cities and towns. Thirteen Israelis, including 10 soldiers, have died in the operation in Gaza and from rocket strikes on southern Israel, according to the Israeli military.

More than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed, including many civilians, Palestinian medics said.

During Thursday's debate, Kaufman also said that Israel needed to seek real peace and not peace by conquest, which would be impossible.

He also accused the Israeli government of "ruthlessly and cynically exploiting the continuing guilt from gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians."

But Kaufman added that while it is necessary to talk to Hamas (http://topics.edition.cnn.com/topics/Hamas), which had been chosen by an electorate, it nevertheless is a "deeply nasty organization."

Bill Rammell, the Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, said the UK government backed an EU presidency statement calling Israeli action disproportionate. But he also criticized Hamas rocket attacks on Israel during the cease-fire between June and December 2008, adding that the militant group's "whole ethos is one of violence" and that it had "made a brutal choice to step up attacks against innocent civilians."

"Nothing, not the restrictions on Gaza nor its frustration with the peace process, justifies what Hamas has done and continues to do," Rammell said. "In December, I was in Ashkelon near the Gaza border, and I heard the sirens. The fear was palpable: This is daily psychological and actual warfare."

Rammell added that Hamas has "committed acts of terrorism, it is committed to the obliteration of the state of Israel, and its statement last week that it was legitimate to kill Jewish children anywhere in the world was utterly chilling and beyond any kind of civilised, humanitarian norm."

The debate came on the day that Saeed Siam, Hamas' third-ranking leader in the territory, was killed by an Israeli airstrike, the Islamic militant group reported.

The United Nations' main relief compound in the territory was also hit and set on fire, which U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon (http://topics.edition.cnn.com/topics/Ban_Ki_moon) blamed on Israel.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert expressed sorrow over the incident but said Israeli forces were responding to militant fire near the complex.
UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown described the shelling of the compound as "indefensible," media agencies reported.

Speaking to Ban during a call, Brown said the UK would increase its calls for a cease-fire and also deliver aid to Gaza once a cease-fire took hold.
Britain has witnessed several demonstrations since the conflict in Gaza began late last month.

Last Saturday, up to 20,000 people gathered outside the Israeli Embassy in London, Metropolitan Police said.

Later, parts of the crowd began pelting officers with sticks, rocks and pieces of metal barriers, police said. A similar protest Sunday was peaceful.

Rallies were also held in London and Manchester last weekend in support of Israeli action against Hamas.
Link (http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/01/16/uk.israel.debate/index.html?iref=mpstoryview)

[Demogorgon]

It is particularly impressive that Kaufman said this, given he is normally perfectly happy to go along with the Neo-Con agenda and has significantly not once voted against the Labour Government in nearly twelve years.

Glad to see he still has some conscience. He has spoken out for Palestine before mind you.

[Rjevan]

Hm, I'm surprised that Kaufman said this and in my opinion it's true. The Israelis really behave like Nazis, they seem to see the Palestines as Untermenschen and therefore they don't hold themselves back in commiting war crimes against Palestine civilians.

[Panda Tse Tung]

Why is everything that relates to Israel out of the mouths of Jews suddenly interesting?
Really, Jews are being pushed in a corner of being 'special'. If i say my government is acting like Nazi's nobody gives a flying fuck (and rightfully so).
I'm not sure whether this is one of those 'positive' discrimination things, or just feeling sorry for the holocaust. But either way it can only work into the hand of antisemitism.

[ls]

Really, Jews are being pushed in a corner of being 'special'.

How so? He isn't special, what he says is what's important.


If i say my government is acting like Nazi's nobody gives a flying fuck (and rightfully so).

The difference being your government isn't doing things akin to the holocaust? And if your government did do something like that, then why should you not speak up against them?


I'm not sure whether this is one of those 'positive' discrimination things, or just feeling sorry for the holocaust.

I see it is as neither, it is just speaking the plain truth.


But either way it can only work into the hand of antisemitism.

Anti-semites will use anything anyway, this doesn't help their cause all that much.

[Rjevan]

I think it is good that prominent Jews like him say something against Israel's policies because you can hardly call them anti-semitic afterwards, while if a non-Jewish-politician says Israel is acting like the nazis did the answer often is: "Anti-semitic nazi-propaganda!"

[Led Zeppelin]

Why is everything that relates to Israel out of the mouths of Jews suddenly interesting?
Really, Jews are being pushed in a corner of being 'special'. If i say my government is acting like Nazi's nobody gives a flying fuck (and rightfully so).
I'm not sure whether this is one of those 'positive' discrimination things, or just feeling sorry for the holocaust. But either way it can only work into the hand of antisemitism.

Nah, it's not positive discrimination, you just have no idea what you're talking about as usual and draw the most idiotic conclusions from false premises.

The reason I considered this "interesting" is because there's a lot of anti-semitic bullshit being thrown around due to the slaughter of Gaza. A lot of people don't hear a lot about Jewish people opposing that, especially not prominent ones, and as a result of that they blame Jewish people as a whole.

Obviously that's idiotic, just as idiotic as your post, but that's why we have to oppose that and show that there are actually a lot of Jewish people who do not condone the actions of the Israeli state, and even go so far as to compare it to the Holocaust.

Also, people don't just not give a flying fuck when you say something because you're not "Jewish", but also because you're totally irrelevant in every respect due to your politics.

[Panda Tse Tung]

How so? He isn't special, what he says is what's important.

He says what everybody's been saying for the past month. But a Jew said it, so it's special.


The difference being your government isn't doing things akin to the holocaust? And if your government did do something like that, then why should you not speak up against them?
The point is that nobody would write an entire article about me calling my government Nazistic, whether there are similarities or not.


Anti-semites will use anything anyway, this doesn't help their cause all that much.

That is true, but it will certainly make it easier for them to recruit new material this way.
The point is, that the guy is not special whatsoever. Just a UK lawmaker that happens to be Jewish who opposes Israel, as many other Jews.


Nah, it's not positive discrimination, you just have no idea what you're talking about as usual and draw the most idiotic conclusions from false premises.

Luckily the intellectual vanguard just posted, so i don't have to worry about my own idiotic conclusions and false premises no longer.


The reason I considered this "interesting" is because there's a lot of anti-semitic bullshit being thrown around due to the slaughter of Gaza. A lot of people don't hear a lot about Jewish people opposing that, especially not prominent ones, and as a result of that they blame Jewish people as a whole.
Actually, at almost every rally this far there have been Jews. There is plenty of information on Jews opposing the whole thing. But this guy did not contribute a single stone nor atom to the whole discussion on Gaza.


and show that there are actually a lot of Jewish people who do not condone the actions of the Israeli state, and even go so far as to compare it to the Holocaust.

Actually, thats an individual Jew. It would be better to note on a Jewish organization or just the simple fact that Jews all around the world have protested the actions of Israel. An individual Jew is as relevant as any other person in the world, unless he would have contributed something to the discussion.


Also, people don't just not give a flying fuck when you say something because you're not "Jewish", but also because you're totally irrelevant in every respect due to your politics.

I know, I'll hear from you next week yeah?
After all your press-conferences and people asking your opinion all the time. And people being like 'Wowzers a Trotskyite! Whats your opinion on the current situation in Gaza?'

[BobKKKindle$]

The reason I considered this "interesting" is because there's a lot of anti-semitic bullshit being thrown around due to the slaughter of GazaIt's also important because anti-Zionist activists are often accused of having an anti-semitic agenda, and so when Jewish people have the same views as us, and publicly condemn the atrocities of the Israeli state, it helps support our case that the struggle against Zionism is not about holding prejudiced views of wanting to expel Jewish people from the Middle East, but taking the side of an oppressed population and fighting for the right of Palestinian people to defend themselves by whatever means they deem necessary or useful. At recent demonstrations, there have always been large numbers of Jewish people protesting alongside Muslims and Leftists, and this is exactly the kind of thing we want to encourage and see more of.

[ls]

He says what everybody's been saying for the past month. But a Jew said it, so it's special.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's only about 5 countries and the UN that have outrightly condemned Israel as outrightly as he has. I also fail to see how we didn't notice them saying it? That was reported much more-so than this case.


The point is that nobody would write an entire article about me calling my government Nazistic, whether there are similarities or not.

People would write an entire article about any MP calling any government Nazistic.



The point is, that the guy is not special whatsoever. Just a UK lawmaker that happens to be Jewish who opposes Israel, as many other Jews.

I agree with you. You are 100% right. The fact is, that a good portion of people's perceptions of him makes him a good figure to promote the fact that Israel's actions are inhumane.

Led Zeppelin said:
A lot of people don't hear a lot about Jewish people opposing that, especially not prominent ones, and as a result of that they blame Jewish people as a whole.

Certainly you agree with that?

[Panda Tse Tung]

I agree with you. You are 100% right. The fact is, that a good portion of people's perceptions of him makes him a good figure to promote the fact that Israel's actions are inhumane.

Perhaps you are correct, but i still feel like it works in the hands of anti-Semitism as well.


Certainly you agree with that?

Yes.

[communard resolution]

But this guy did not contribute a single stone nor atom to the whole discussion on Gaza. What nonsense. He spoke out in public against Israel's policies, that's his contribution - and since he's a public figure his voice is louder and will be heard more clearly than yours, like it or not. He makes best use of this advantage.

His statement might encourage other Jews to make a stand. It might encourage non-Jews to speak out against the Israeli government who may have otherwise been anxious of being called antisemitic. It draws a clear line between Jews and the Israeli government. These are all postive effects.

And you are worried what antisemites might make of it? Who cares? If anything, it takes the wind out of their sails because it shows that Jews don't always stick together conspiring against the rest of the world as antisemites would have you believe.

No offence, but I think you're overreacting and creating a problem where there isn't one.

[Devrim]

It's also important because anti-Zionist activists are often accused of having an anti-semitic agenda, and so when Jewish people have the same views as us, and publicly condemn the atrocities of the Israeli state,

But it wouldn't make criticisms of Israel massacres wrong even if no Jews condemned them.


it helps support our case that the struggle against Zionism is not about holding prejudiced views of wanting to expel Jewish people from the Middle East,

But you do realise that there are actually many people in the Middle East who do want to drive the Jews into the see. Lots of people in the Middle east don't want to expel them, but to kill them.

It doesn't mean that everyone holds that idea, but it is not the idea of a tiny minority either.


At recent demonstrations, there have always been large numbers of Jewish people protesting alonside Muslims and Leftists, and this is exactly the kind of thing we want to encourage and ee more of.I am not quite sure what you mean here. I don't really understand how you can use that always in conjunction with recent. However, when I worked in London, the only 'Jewish' people I saw* protesting against Israel were religious loonies.

However, we are not interested in which religious groups are protesting against war, but in what the working class is doing.

Devrim

*Of course many Jewish people may have protested, and probably did protest against Israel during that time, including comrades from our organisation. They just don't all have hooked noses for you to notice that they are Jews.

[Led Zeppelin]

Luckily the intellectual vanguard just posted

That doesn't even make sense, though I'm sure in your head it does.


so i don't have to worry about my own idiotic conclusions and false premises no longer

Yeah you do.


Actually, at almost every rally this far there have been Jews. There is plenty of information on Jews opposing the whole thing.

But they're just playing into the hands of anti-semites, so they should be denounced, spoke the village idiot.


Actually, thats an individual Jew. It would be better to note on a Jewish organization or just the simple fact that Jews all around the world have protested the actions of Israel. An individual Jew is as relevant as any other person in the world, unless he would have contributed something to the discussion.

He is not "just an individual Jew" who's "just as relevant as any other person in the world", if he was his comments wouldn't have made headlines. Besides, no one argued that we should not mention the other Jewish individuals and organizations who oppose the actions of the Israeli state, on the contrary.

As I said above; you still have to worry about making idiotic conclusions based on false premises.


I know, I'll hear from you next week yeah?

You probably thought you were being witty or cool when you wrote this but you're actually just babbling.

Just thought you should know.


What nonsense. He spoke out in public against Israel's policies, that's his contribution - and since he's a public figure his voice is louder and will be heard more clearly than yours, like it or not. He makes best use of this advantage.

His statement might encourage other Jews to make a stand. It might encourage non-Jews to speak out against the Israeli government who may have otherwise been anxious of being called antisemitic. It draws a clear line between Jews and the Israeli government. These are all postive effects.

And you are worried what antisemites might make of it? Who cares? If anything, it takes the wind out of their sails because it shows that Jews don't always stick together conspiring against the rest of the world as antisemites would have you believe.

No offence, but I think you're overreacting and creating a problem where there isn't one.

Great post, but you should keep in mind that the village idiot is known for trolling serious threads with his inanities, and he was probably more inclined to do so here given the fact that I was the person who made the thread and he feels the need to get back at me for giving him a verbal trashing recently (http://www.revleft.com/vb/off-topic-discussion-t98314/index.html).

Children and their petty needs, what can you do?

[BobKKKindle$]

But it wouldn't make criticisms of Israel massacres wrong even if no Jews condemned them.Indeed, but it certainly adds credibility to our argument that anti-Zionism is not the same as antisemitism if Jewish people support the struggles of the Palestinian people and reject Zionism as incompatible with their political views or, in some cases, Judaism.


But you do realise that there are actually many people in the Middle East who do want to drive the Jews into the see. Lots of people in the Middle east don't want to expel them, but to kill them.Of course - there are also lots of people inside Israel on the far-right of the political spectrum who want to resolve violence in the West Bank by driving all of the Palestinians out of the area and into neighboring countries in order to make way for Jewish settlers and ensure that Israel is able to retain the "right" ethnic composition. As you point out, these extremists do not comprise a majority, have negligible political influence, and their existence does not negate the need to ruthlessly opposes Zionism.


I am not quite sure what you mean here. I could tell there were large numbers of Jewish people on the demonstration because there were many people holding banners reading "Jews against the War". Surely it's not stupid or prejudiced to assume that someone holding that kind of placard is likely to be Jewish, in the same way that someone holding a placard from the MAB is likely to be Muslim? Based on my limited knowledge of orthodox Judaism, most of these people would probably not "loonies" either - they did not wear long beards or rekelech and there was generally no sign that they were anything but normal Jewish people protesting against the slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza. Of course, it's hard for anyone to make these kind of judgments based solely on someone's external appearance, especially when one is not part of the Jewish community and has no detailed knowledge of Judaism, but I don't think it's fair to assert that "loonies" were predominant amongst the Jewish participants.

This is important from the viewpoint of the working class, because it encourages workers who may see the struggle against Zionism as synonymous with antisemitism to overcome these ideas and become part of the struggle.

[redguard2009]

How is talking about someone who self-identifies as a Jewish person condemning Israel "anti-semetic"?

I'm sure most of us who've had the misfortune of encountering zionist apologists and pro-Israeli supporters have had to deal with the attempts by that "camp" to cast the entire affair in the light of an "us or them" mentality; they argue that Arabs as a generic whole (though they admit there are exceptions) want to destroy Israel and kill every Jew in the Middle East, and that it is Israel's right to defend itself against these bloodthirsty, satanic terrorists. Ultimately, anyone who condemns Israel's actions are labelled as "anti-semitic" and "jew-haters" by these types of people once they realize their chauvinistic and racist arguements have no sway in any logical debate. They fall back on the often-used premise that "nobody cares" about the Jewish people and that the Jewish people vis a vis Israel must do everything possible to defend itself regardless of what anyone else says, because of the liberals in the UN had any say in the matter, Israel would already be gone.

Therefore, when one of "their own" comes out and condemns them just the same as us "jew-haters", it can ultimately be a "shock" to their system. They are forced to reconcile the fact that some of god's "chosen people" disagree with their actions, rather than them being easily able to shrug off all criticism as being foreign, uneducated and irelevent.

Know what I mean?

[Devrim]

I could tell there were large numbers of Jewish people on the demonstration because there were many people holding banners reading "Jews against the War". Surely it's not stupid or prejudiced to assume that someone holding that kind of placard is likely to be Jewish, in the same way that someone holding a placard from the MAB is likely to be Muslim? Based on my limited knowledge of orthodox Judaism, most of these people would probably not "loonies" either - they did not wear long beards or rekelech and there was generally no sign that they were anything but normal Jewish people protesting against the slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza. Of course, it's hard for anyone to make these kind of judgments based solely on someone's external appearance, especially when one is not part of the Jewish community and has no detailed knowledge of Judaism, but I don't think it's fair to assert that "loonies" were predominant amongst the Jewish participants.

Fair point, I didn't say that 'loonies' were predominate at these demonstrations I was referring to when I worked in London in the 80s. I don't remember seeing 'Jews against the war placards, but I do remember extreme Haredi groups.


As you point out, these extremists do not comprise a majority, have negligible political influence, and their existence does not negate the need to ruthlessly opposes Zionism.

I didn't point out that they have negligible political influence at all. I think they have more influence than you give them credit for.

Devrim

[Led Zeppelin]

Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

Also added it to the OP.

[modern.day.cheguevara]

The fact is that the holocaust is the best thing to happen to jews since gold plated menorahs. A recent protest in toronto is under investigation for being anti-semitic and because it "compared jews to nazis". This is the same bullshit that was pulled in 1991, when the UN Resolution equating Zionism to Racism was revoked because it diminished the Jewish Suffering the Holocaust.

Zionism is Nazism. Its a facist system bent on the destruction and annihilation of the Palestinian people...

[Chapter 24]

the holocaust is the best thing to happen to jews since gold plated menorahs.

You don't actually believe that crap, do you? Because that kind of talk is fairly similar to the way WN's and other idiots speak about Jews - how they're part of this hegemony with plans of creating the "Holohoax" in order to found the State of Israel.
I agree with what is said in The Holocaust Industry, but please don't say that the Holocaust was good for Jews. That's totally uncalled for and fallacious.

[Le Libérer]

Split flame war to trashcan.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The fact is that the holocaust is the best thing to happen to jews since gold plated menorahs.

What the fuck is this shit? How the fuck is getting killing millions good for anyone except those doing the killing?


A recent protest in toronto is under investigation for being anti-semitic and because it "compared jews to nazis". This is the same bullshit that was pulled in 1991, when the UN Resolution equating Zionism to Racism was revoked because it diminished the Jewish Suffering the Holocaust.The Zionists use the Holocaust as an excuse for their behaviour, but not all Jews are Zionists.


Zionism is Nazism. Its a facist system bent on the destruction and annihilation of the Palestinian people...That much may be true, but you should rethink your initial statement.

[Woland]

http://mwcnews.net/content/view/27972/264/


Just take a look at this. Warning- graphic images.