Antifascist Circle

[Pogue]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifascist_Circle

I like this symbol and would use it but I don't want too if one of the arrows is meant to represent anti-communism. Does it have to mean this or is that just one intepretation? Does the symbol have to be anti-communist as well as anti-nazi?

[Holden Caulfield]

its open to interpretation, nobody will think you are anti-commy for sporting such a symbol I shouldn't think.

[redSHARP]

you mean the RASH logo?! trust me, its not anti-communist. look up RASH on wikipedia or google, and all questions will be answered. also the antifacist circle is used by graffiti artists a lot.

[Pogue]

you mean the RASH logo?! trust me, its not anti-communist. look up RASH on wikipedia or google, and all questions will be answered. also the antifacist circle is used by graffiti artists a lot.

oh yeh of course its the rash logo! mint i'll use it then.

[Dóchas]

what is RASH and its antifascist circle?

EDIT never mind i found it

[Holden Caulfield]

what is RASH and its antifascist circle?
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=889

[redSHARP]

hahaha!:thumbup:

[Dóchas]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=889

link doesnt work but i think i know what it is. is it Red Anarchist Skin Heads?

[redSHARP]

yeah, however some RASH people would instantly say Red AND Anarchist Skinhead:rolleyes:

[StalinFanboy]

I've never heard of it being anti-communist. I've always gone with the RASH interpretation of Liberty, Equality, Solidarity. Back in my RASH days I was going to get those words tattooed on the insides of my fingers. Still might one day.

[Skin_HeadBanger]

Definately RASH.

[Sasha]

well its not orinaly (a part of) the rash logo of course, the wike article in the OP looks pretty correct;


The Antifascist Circle is a logo designed by Sergei Tschachotin (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Stepanowitsch_Tschachotin) - former assistant to the physiologist Ivan Pavlov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Pavlov) - in 1931 [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifascist_Circle#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifascist_Circle#cite_note-1) for the 1930s German anti-fascist organization Iron Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Front). The logo (three arrows, pointing south-west/to the lower left inside a circle) was designed to be able to easily cover up Nazi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism) swastikas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika). The meaning of the three arrows have been interpreted differently. One claim is that they stood for the opponents of the Iron Front and democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy): communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism), monarchism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchism) and Nazism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism). Another claim is that they stand for the three columns of the German workers' movement: a party, a trade union and the Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsbanner_Schwarz-Rot-Gold).

the verdict is out but i dont use it because of the ironfront/social democrat conection.

[jaffe]

well its not orinaly (a part of) the rash logo of course, the wike article in the OP looks pretty correct;

the verdict is out but i dont use it because of the ironfront/social democrat conection.I think monarchism is pretty impossible since the Emperor of Germany was already expellend and living in Doorn. I thougt it was against communism, ultra capitalism and nazism.

[Forward Union]

It's from the Iron Front in germany.

and yea, one of the arrows represents anti-communism btw.

[StalinFanboy]

What communism are they referring to though?

The communism that is demonized in America is a lot different than what most of us here would consider communism to be.

[redSHARP]

It's from the Iron Front in germany.

and yea, one of the arrows represents anti-communism btw.


RASH uses the Iron Front circle because of the left wing connection with the german leftists. if the liberals want to hijack it, then fuck them! we interpret it as a symbol for workers struggle and militant anti-facism and we will hold on to it.

[StalinFanboy]

And it looks totally badass.

[Pogue]

I was thinking of getting it as a tattoo. Can we be sure its not anti-communism, though?

[Killfacer]

just get the bloody tattoo.

[nuisance]

I was thinking of getting it as a tattoo. Can we be sure its not anti-communism, though?
You ain't old enough.
:mad:

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Do it anyway.

Infact get your mates to hold you down while they do it.

[Pogue]

You ain't old enough.
:mad:

shut up oppresor

I'll get it then.

[Sasha]

yeah!!! :thumbup1: we want pics offcourse

[Pogue]

lol u shall get them, but i must abide carefully by security culture

[Sasha]

just a pic of the tat will do...

[Pogue]

just a pic of the tat will do...

Yeh but my arm might be on redwatch!

[Killfacer]

I want to see you're pale stick like arm.

[Pogue]

I want to see you're pale stick like arm.

You mean my fit, tonk manly arm?

I'm kinda bothered about the needle and hygiene now though.

[Wanted Man]

It's from the Iron Front, the social-democratic paramilitaries who fought both the nazis and the communists. So within that context, it's obviously reactionary. I'm guessing that the redskins don't use it with that connotation though. So from that point of view it's progressive.

Here's a poster from the SPD from the Weimar period with similar symbolism:

So if you want to put that on your arm for the rest of your life, consider what you want to affiliate yourself with. Personally, I prefer this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roter_Frontkaempferbund_Emblem_2.svg

Or this:

http://www.artworldsalon.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06Jun08/clenched_fist.jpg

Or this:

http://barcelona.indymedia.org/usermedia/image/1/7_antifa.jpg

Or this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_uSlKw6xKFoE/SGPJWHScdlI/AAAAAAAABRw/G-tu1f_KLmU/s320/spain-International_Brigades_star.PNG

And so on...

[Pogue]

It's from the Iron Front, the social-democratic paramilitaries who fought both the nazis and the communists. So within that context, it's obviously reactionary. I'm guessing that the redskins don't use it with that connotation though. So from that point of view it's progressive.

Here's a poster from the SPD from the Weimar period with similar symbolism:

http://homohominilupus.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/spd-poster-1932.jpg

So if you want to put that on your arm for the rest of your life, consider what you want to affiliate yourself with. Personally, I prefer this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roter_Frontkaempferbund_Emblem_2.svg

Or this:

http://www.artworldsalon.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06Jun08/clenched_fist.jpg

Or this:

http://barcelona.indymedia.org/usermedia/image/1/7_antifa.jpg

Or this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_uSlKw6xKFoE/SGPJWHScdlI/AAAAAAAABRw/G-tu1f_KLmU/s320/spain-International_Brigades_star.PNG

And so on...

Thanks, thats useful.

The three arrows has been reclaimed I think, and I do like it is a symbol. I considered the IB three point but I dunno about getting it red and if it'd look good just on its own. Does anyone know how much it'd cost roughly to get tthat three point IB logo with No pasran on my arm? Whats the usual price for an image with writing?

[Wanted Man]

I don't know a lot about the history of the symbol, I can't say if it's "reclaimed" or whatever. But obviously it has a different meaning for RASH. I just noticed that someone mentioned that it had been "hijacked by liberals", when it's likely the other way around. Anyway, it's entirely up to you.

Oh, and this one didn't work earlier:

http://i41.tinypic.com/2i06r7s.png

If you want an evil stalinist logo on your arm. ;)

Rotfront!

[Pogue]

Are there any other symbols worth getting? If the Iron Front one is still unappealing i might consider the IB one, with no pasaran neath it or so.

[Killfacer]

why not get the anti fa flags with some kind of phrase written around it. Personally i like the the three arrows.

[Pogue]

why not get the anti fa flags with some kind of phrase written around it. Personally i like the the three arrows.

I considered the flags but then, I'm not actually in Antifa and it could have problems in terms of any illegal actions, you know like.

I like the three arrows alot I'm just bothered by the anti-comm thing.

[Pogue]

I like the three arrows but I'm not going to get them. It seems stupid seeing as I am a communist, when one of the arrows is explicitly meant to represent anti-communism.

Any other symbols or ideas that'd be good?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

http://lh5.ggpht.com/mikelatz10/SCSI1_Ql1OI/AAAAAAAAAVU/o5ZpEo9yod8/s144/EH%20Antifa.gif
Get something like this but obviously with diffrent lettering.

[Pogue]

http://lh5.ggpht.com/mikelatz10/SCSI1_Ql1OI/AAAAAAAAAVU/o5ZpEo9yod8/s144/EH%20Antifa.gif
Get something like this but obviously with diffrent lettering.

It looks too complicated, alot of detail with the reath and cog.

[Pogue]

According to this RASH book let I got, it was the Red Front Fighters League who created the three arrows. They were explicitly communist. But I think they're worng, which is sort of odd because RASH has the three arrow logo which includes antic-communism?

[Sasha]

because they started out in america and americans are arrogant fuckups who refuse to do any propper research...
hey, a scarry percentage (40% or sommething) of the US youth believe they WON the vietnam war :laugh:

[Dóchas]

http://www.bergonia.org/Flags/Flag-Anarchist.gif

symbol of bergonian anrchists, four pointed star is meant to reject the wests five pointed star

http://www.infoshop.org/wiki/images/d/d2/Sabcat2.gif

the black cat, i think it means sabotage by the IWW

there ar just a two i can think of but it think they are pretty cool

[Skin_HeadBanger]

because they started out in america and americans are arrogant fuckups who refuse to do any propper research...
hey, a scarry percentage (40% or sommething) of the US youth believe they WON the vietnam war :laugh:

blind regional hatred, much?

thanks, man.

[Forward Union]

RASH uses the Iron Front circle because of the left wing connection with the german leftists. if the liberals want to hijack it, then fuck them! we interpret it as a symbol for workers struggle and militant anti-facism and we will hold on to it.

But they're not hijacking it. They invented it.

You're the one whos Hijacking it, but if you want to do so, go ahead.

[Sasha]

blind regional hatred, much?

thanks, man.

hey man, nothing personal... its just a fact that rash messed up, so what, everybody messes up.
we as AFA/nl just made a benefit CD with this as the cover
http://indymedia.nl/img/2009/02/57545.jpg
totaly oblivious of the anti-muslim/pro-cop conontations of the st-george symbolism

awsome design, well meant, big fuck up.

[AntifaGermany]

hello im a autonomous antifascist from germany. when you have any question about our movement here in germany ,please ask me with personal messages.
we antifascists in germany are very active. ready for every riot ,against the state,fascists,police. mostly every antifa in germany is a autonomous one. we do have the biggest black bloc in the hole world. 2/3/4000 antifas in the black bloc is nothing. we are strong ,but the nazis are getting bigger and harder,they use weapons like guns ,pepperspray and knifes and even killed some of us.

antifascist greetings from a antifascist out of hamburg city.
sorry for my bad english ^^

fuck off _ : fascists - racists - antisemites - speciesists - sexists - homophobists - nationalists - patriots.

stay AFA:thumbup1:

[Dóchas]

hello im a autonomous antifascist from germany. when you have any question about our movement here in germany ,please ask me with personal messages.
we antifascists in germany are very active. ready for every riot ,against the state,fascists,police. mostly every antifa in germany is a autonomous one. we do have the biggest black bloc in the hole world. 2/3/4000 antifas in the black bloc is nothing. we are strong ,but the nazis are getting bigger and harder,they use weapons like guns ,pepperspray and knifes and even killed some of us.

antifascist greetings from a antifascist out of hamburg city.
sorry for my bad english ^^

fuck off _ : fascists - racists - antisemites - speciesists - sexists - homophobists - nationalists - patriots.

stay AFA:thumbup1:

how many members does AFA have in germany at the moment?

[Pogue]

I'm still not sure..I'd quite like to get one like, but I have too many reservations about any potential problems from it, and what to get.

[Pogue]

How do you guys think the Antifa flags logo would look as a tattoo, and do you think it'd be hard to do?

[Pogue]

and is it worth it, too dangerous, etc

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

It might be best to have a tatoo that wont bite you in the arse if you ever end up in court or anything.

[Sasha]

if you get i at an decent tattooist (and you always should, better too save for some bit longer and get it propper than end up with crap for the rest of your life) it can look rely sweet i think, you might wanna play around first a bit with the collor sceme, red flag front vs black flag front (looks better imo) or maybe even all black (also awsome)
or/and you can possibly make it look like a stamp/stencil or a brand.

and one more importand thing; dont get it too small because you have to make sure that there is enough space between the lines other wise in a few years youll end up with a big blob on your arm

[Skin_HeadBanger]

hey man, nothing personal... its just a fact that rash messed up, so what, everybody messes up.
we as AFA/nl just made a benefit CD with this as the cover
http://indymedia.nl/img/2009/02/57545.jpg
totaly oblivious of the anti-muslim/pro-cop conontations of the st-george symbolism

awsome design, well meant, big fuck up.

actually, I was just burting your balls about the whole "ignorant Americans" thing. All in good fun, buddy.

[StalinFanboy]

It looks too complicated, alot of detail with the reath and cog.
Hardly. Unless you are planning on doing it yourself. In which case I wouldn't worry too much about hygiene and shit as long as you use a new needle. I did a tattoo on my hand using a safety pin (LOL PUNK ROCK) and India Ink and I still have my hand.

[AntifaGermany]

i don't know how many we are in germany ,but i hope more than the fascists ,..in our biggest demonstrations we have 10000 autonomous afa's + left partie ,and many antifas were at home... so we are very many here in germany. we had a international nazi demonstration in dresden last month and there were 6000nazi scums but just 7000antifas, so the number changes often, but we are very active in the streets. we are squatting very many houses to show that we are still alive and that we have something to say. we are doing very much art in the streets ,stickers,stecil,graffiti we give flyers to other people for information,smash and fight fascists we make photos of them. but now the nazis have a black bloc too. a autonomous national bloc -.- ,how dump is this? ,and their anti-antifa groups are getting bigger too. the police is doing very much "repression?" against us and some of us are in prison.
our antifa group is splitting in very many parts... into anti-german (who our doing solidarity to israel) and autonomous antifa who don't want to do any solidarity to any state "no love for a nation" like me ,too....... but we don't give up , more questions?

sorry for my bad english ,i hope you understand everthing

solidary greetings from germany:cool:

[AntifaGermany]

???

[Killfacer]

fucking get it.

[Jaccob]

Just to clarify, RASH used red arrows on a black background, Iron Front used black arrows on a red background, RASH changed the colours around for a reason. So getting red on black as a tattoo would in fact be distinctly pro communist.

Do it.

[Pogue]

Just to clarify, RASH used red arrows on a black background, Iron Front used black arrows on a red background, RASH changed the colours around for a reason. So getting red on black as a tattoo would in fact be distinctly pro communist.

Do it.

No, it doesn't make sense. Oncemore, one of the arrows means anti-communism and I'm not anti-communist.

[nuisance]

You won't get the tattoo anyway.

[Rjevan]

but now the nazis have a black bloc too. a autonomous national bloc -.- ,how dump is this? ,and their anti-antifa groups are getting bigger too.
I never understood what "national anarchists" or "national autonoms" are up to. I mean, though I am no anarchist I'm pretty sure that the words "national" and "anarchist" are a complete contradiction. So how is this supposed to work? :confused:
And the anti-antifa is the dumbest thing I ever heard of. Fascism is, er, fascist, the Antifa is anti-fascist and the anti-antifa is therefore fascist again. Why don't they call themselves Fascists then? This is just like I would found an anti-anti-communist movement.
Or maybe we should come up with the anti-anti-antifa. :D

[Sam_b]

why not get the anti fa flags with some kind of phrase written around it

I fail to see why anyone would want to have an organisation's logo on themselves as a tatoo. Whose to say you're still even a supporter of said organisation five or ten years down the line?

Your loyalty should be to the class and to the concept of anti-fascism, not some group like Antifa, UAF, whatever.

[StalinFanboy]

I never understood what "national anarchists" or "national autonoms" are up to. I mean, though I am no anarchist I'm pretty sure that the words "national" and "anarchist" are a complete contradiction. So how is this supposed to work? :confused:
And the anti-antifa is the dumbest thing I ever heard of. Fascism is, er, fascist, the Antifa is anti-fascist and the anti-antifa is therefore fascist again. Why don't they call themselves Fascists then? This is just like I would found an anti-anti-communist movement.
Or maybe we should come up with the anti-anti-antifa. :D
National Anarchists believe in organizing along tribes within the working class. They don't see any particular group as inferior, but believe that culture mixing is detrimental.

[Dr Mindbender]

This thread has been split because the discussion was going off in a tangent from the topic.

You will find the missing posts in graphics.

Thanks.

[Honggweilo]

hey man, nothing personal... its just a fact that rash messed up, so what, everybody messes up.
we as AFA/nl just made a benefit CD with this as the cover
http://indymedia.nl/img/2009/02/57545.jpg
totaly oblivious of the anti-muslim/pro-cop conontations of the st-george symbolism

awsome design, well meant, big fuck up.
lol Roel Smit? from Large Magazine?

awesome stylized design btw, besides the st. george connonation... though its not a first someone fucked up this way

http://www-cvr.ai.uiuc.edu/%7Eslazebni/personal_page/scrapbook/images/trotsky.jpg

:p

[Sasha]

yup although i know him als roel the singer from human alert

[Honggweilo]

yup although i know him als roel the singer from human alert
hahaha yeah, i really loved that one album cover he made with all the band members dressed as "stalinogothics" XD, i lol'd bigtime

[Das war einmal]

http://94.100.116.67/298300001-298350000/298313401-298313500/298313459_6_hOhA.jpeg

[Das war einmal]

Btw whats the fuzz about St. George?

[Killfacer]

It's pretty patriotic. Nick Griffin mentions stuff about "slaying the islamic dragon" and what not.

[Sasha]

It's pretty patriotic. Nick Griffin mentions stuff about "slaying the islamic dragon" and what not.

this kinda; the myth only became realy populair in the time of the crusades and then the evil that needed to be slain was the islam. so in christian symbolism st. george has an strong anti-islam conontation.
witch is ironic because aperently st. george was from the midle east/north africa himself.
next to this is st. george also the patron saint of the police in a lot of country's, not sommeting we as revolutionary leftists want to associate ourselfs with.

[Das war einmal]

A little bit far fetched, reminds me of all the hot fuzz/ big deal that some Dutch leftist make out of St. Nicholas

[Sasha]

as an matter of fact i do despise our yearly nationwide minstrell show, as any propper leftist should.

[Honggweilo]

http://94.100.116.67/298300001-298350000/298313401-298313500/298313459_6_hOhA.jpeg
hehehe i still have that issue somewhere too, awesome, but its not the one i meant.

[Das war einmal]

as an matter of fact i do despise our yearly nationwide minstrell show, as any propper leftist should.

So every leftist who doesnt despise it is not really proper? I'm sure you have good arguments for this...

[Sasha]

what? you think its normal for leftists to think degrading ethnical stereotypes, racism, colonialism and the glorification of slavery is harmeless fun?

dont get me wrong, i have nothing against celebrating sinterklaas, i have a problem with celebrating slavery and racism.
the colonial/racist stereotypes are a recent adition and there is no reoson why we should not try and get rid of it.

[Panda Tse Tung]

And don't forget the lying aspect.

[Das war einmal]

what? you think its normal for leftists to think degrading ethnical stereotypes, racism, colonialism and the glorification of slavery is harmeless fun?

dont get me wrong, i have nothing against celebrating sinterklaas, i have a problem with celebrating slavery and racism.
the colonial/racist stereotypes are a recent adition and there is no reoson why we should not try and get rid of it.

No I think its normal to view this in perspective and as far as my knowledge goes this celebration has nothing to do with slavery nor racism. Its far fetched, if children were taught to fear this black men than it would be something different.

[Panda Tse Tung]

These 'black men' dressed up in old Spanish uniforms are the slaves of some white saint. Their basically doing all the work while the saint only has to be wise and stuff, just walk around being wise.

[Das war einmal]

These 'black men' dressed up in old Spanish uniforms are the slaves of some white saint. Their basically doing all the work while the saint only has to be wise and stuff, just walk around being wise.

Yeah thats certainly slaves work no? Carrying bales of cotton is nothing compared to giving presents to children. You know why they are dressed up in Spanish uniforms? Thats because they are representing Moors, muslim citizens (not slaves) in the south of Spain.

[Sasha]

yep, and thats why they are blackfaced, have afro hair, caribean accents, thick lips, golden earings, are stupid, athletic etc etc. that is realy traditional "moor" stereotyping and not colonialism....
and even when it isn't slave imagery/colonialism like you claim but orientalism, then that makes it ok/not racist?

[Sasha]

intresting threads dealing with similair stereotyping:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/bnp-racist-christmas-t96556/index.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/thatcher-daughter-sacked-t100888/index.html?t=100888&highlight=golliwog
why are the english able to have an sensible discussion on this and screams in holland everybody (even a lot of leftists) bloody murder when you mention the racist sides to some of our "cultural heritage"
we got rich and prosperous on slavery and colonialism, its not strange that is still represented in our cultur. what is wrong with examinging traditions and trying to remove offensive behavior? culture/traditions are not static.
for example we (the dutch) used to think that ripping a alive fish in two was an fundamental cultural tradition, it isn't now.

[Das war einmal]

Cultural traditions are not ALL static, thats true. Some however, are. Now there is almost no objection against St. Nicholas and certainly not with the points you brought in. The tradition of St. Nicholas is that the Mores where servants, not slaves, of St. Nicholas. And although that may seem almost the same, in the time that St. Nicholas lived, more than 90% of the entire population in Europe where servants, as there was serfdom. The whole stereotyping is not ment to be racist, atleast, thats what I believe. We can discuss about this ofcourse but I dont think you will find many ground for it in our country.

The feast of St. Nicholas doesnt make our children racists nor is its intention to make our children think that black people our less worthy or something.

[Panda Tse Tung]

Cultural traditions are not ALL static, thats true. Some however, are.
Nothing is static.
I'll keep out of the conversation, but thats just all i wanted to say :p.

[Sasha]

The feast of St. Nicholas doesnt make our children racists

not? both my nephew as my niece (raised in a 100% white surounding but by anti-racist liberal parents) were for a long time terriefied of black people, who they all linked to zwarte piet
and they still have trouble seeing not all black people as stupid loud clowns who get in their face and pinch them.
imagine what could happen in suroundings that encourage those fears instead of activily trying to remove them...

you can discuss wheter or not it is still prominient enough to have too too change it but denieing that there is racist and slave ownership glorifying symbolism in sinterklaas is make belief/oost indisch blind ;) zijn. i see no point in having this discussion with ppl who choose too be ignorant because its more easy and less confrontational.
enjoy your minstrell show but dont expect me to play allong...

http://negerzoenmoetblijven.punt.nl/upload/Zwarte20Piet20Pedro20groot.jpg http://home.scarlet.be/%7Estbk2/PO%20Zwarte%20Piet.jpg
yes that realy looks like an berber or a marocan to me and nothing like:
http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/B/htmlB/blackandwhim/blackandwhimIMAGE/black&whim.jpg
thats just a coincedence....