The hyper-sexualization of lesbians

[Invincible Summer]

I know - and I'm sure many of you do too - many guys who think "Lesbians? Hellllls yes!!" but are against gays (not to stir up debate about the diff b/w lesbians and gays though).

I have a few points for discussion:

- Why is it that lesbians are most commonly portrayed as hyper-sexual people, with an apparently strong desire to make out with each other as much as possible? Also, they're usually shown as being very attractive.

Many lesbians that I've seen/know are average women and do not just randomly make out in public. This can actually speak for my experience with nearly all homosexuals.


- What is with some men and their obsession with lesbians? Why is it so attractive to them? I'm a man, but I don't find it as exciting as some other men do.

- The bias some men have towards lesbians but against gays. It's almost as if they think that if their pals see them condoning gay activity, it makes them gay or something silly like that. What's the deal?

[Eddie]

Eh...I dunno if lesbians are portrayed as attractive people. I mean, the typical stereotype of a lesbian is some fat ugly, middle-aged woman with a shaved head. Not exactly attractive by any standard, no? Why do some guys find lesbians attractive? Probably has something to do with the 'zomg two girls who I can have sex with at the same time!!!111' which is a pretty bizarre response considering a lesbian is, ya know, kinda unlikely to have sex with a man...

[Jazzratt]

- Why is it that lesbians are most commonly portrayed as hyper-sexual people, with an apparently strong desire to make out with each other as much as possible? Also, they're usually shown as being very attractive.

"Usually" in this case meaning "in pornography", right? Because outside of porn people generally talk about lesbians, generally, in terms of really butch women with drills and boots and other "manly" things. In pornography, and to a lesser extent general cinema, I imagine they are portrayed as hyper-sexual and attractive for audience titillation - given that it's the point of the exercise.


Many lesbians that I've seen/know are average women and do not just randomly make out in public. This can actually speak for my experience with nearly all homosexuals.

Well, yeah. Barring psychological problems most people do not spend their days with the perpetual horn (apart from, of course, puberty when everyone wants to fuck just about everything).


- What is with some men and their obsession with lesbians? Why is it so attractive to them? I'm a man, but I don't find it as exciting as some other men do.

Well, straight men like women and most of them like sex and sexual acts too. So seeing lesbians kind of ties in with their likes. It's also because straight men (and while I use the term for all men, I recognise that there are exceptions and so on) tend to have a feeling of "sexual entitlement" to a woman's body. That and, of course, the rather sinister fantasy of "turning" lesbians plays a big part in it.


- The bias some men have towards lesbians but against gays. It's almost as if they think that if their pals see them condoning gay activity, it makes them gay or something silly like that. What's the deal?

I think for the most part you're right, a lot of this kind of stuff comes from "lad culture" where everyone has to out macho each other and one way to do this is to disassociate themselves from "weakness" (being gay, having feelings, reading books, listening to the wrong music) and associate themselves with "hardness" (objectifying women [therefore "liking" lesbians], hitting people, drinking too much, farting, being racist). People can grow out of this or simply be influenced by a different circle of friends or change in general culture.

Then again perhaps some of them dislike gay men because they simply don't understand them, not being attracted to men themselves whereas they have "common ground" with lesbians. It's less likely than their being influenced by their mates but I imagine it could be a reason.

Incidentally I've not really encountered this type of person in real life (or even that much online).

[hugsandmarxism]

Agreed with Jazzrat. I've known a group of guys like this (but this was in my highschool days, so idk). One thing I might add concerning the pornographic aspect is this: some guys are so insecure with their sexuality that they cannot bare to see a nude man in their porn, so hence they go for two women willing to do the erotic stuff. To be honest, I was like this once. There was a time in my life when I was rather homophobic, I hate to admit, and felt this way myself (oh the irony). This was something I grew out of rather quickly though. Like at 14.

[Elly]

I think stereotypes concerning lesbians are somewhat contradictory, as they are often concerning minorities.

I have the impression that lesbians are hyper-sexualised and seen somewhat less negatively than gay mens... at the condition that they are not actually lesbians (for example, men can like the act of two women kissing to arouse their boyfriends/men, or the idea that they could have sex with two women at the same time). When lesbians actually express that they don't want to have sex with men, that they don't want to arouse men, that they don't want men, things are different and there is the stereotype that "if they are lesbians it is because they never met the right guy", or that there is no real sex between them since there is no guy and so on.

To put it differently, I think the idea that a girl can be attracted by another girl is not really challenging to the average straight guy, but the idea that a girl can live perfectly well, including sexually, without a guy, causes more problem.

[Invincible Summer]

"Usually" in this case meaning "in pornography", right? Because outside of porn people generally talk about lesbians, generally, in terms of really butch women with drills and boots and other "manly" things. In pornography, and to a lesser extent general cinema, I imagine they are portrayed as hyper-sexual and attractive for audience titillation - given that it's the point of the exercise.

It's strange that lesbians have these contradictory stereotypes. From my experience, more people associate the butch women with boots and stuff to be a "feminist," although it's true that people associate this image with lesbians as well.

There's that show "The L Word" that's all about lesbians, and they're all pretty good looking. It's a pretty popular show from what I understand, so it's not just porn that creates the image of a hyper-sexual/sexually attractive lesbian.

It'd be interesting to do a survey of men and women, asking them what comes to mind when they hear the words "feminist" and "lesbian," and see if the male responses for "lesbian" correspond more to the pornographic image, whereas the female response may correspond to the "butch" image.



I think for the most part you're right, a lot of this kind of stuff comes from "lad culture" where everyone has to out macho each other and one way to do this is to disassociate themselves from "weakness" (being gay, having feelings, reading books, listening to the wrong music) and associate themselves with "hardness" (objectifying women [therefore "liking" lesbians], hitting people, drinking too much, farting, being racist). People can grow out of this or simply be influenced by a different circle of friends or change in general culture.I think a lot of North American media tries to cater to this male "fantasy," and therefore making it almost like a social norm for guys to jizz themselves over lesbians. In this case, changing cultures is a lot more difficult for someone who's deep in it.

But as you say, most people grow out of this.


Then again perhaps some of them dislike gay men because they simply don't understand them, not being attracted to men themselves whereas they have "common ground" with lesbians. It's less likely than their being influenced by their mates but I imagine it could be a reason.Yeah I see what you're saying. People should see homosexuals just as other people... why does sexual preference bug people so much?


Incidentally I've not really encountered this type of person in real life (or even that much online).You're lucky. As you said, it's mainly pubescent teens, but it's still annoying. Maybe it's partially cuz I don't want women to think that we're all pigs..



To be honest, I was like this once. There was a time in my life when I was rather homophobic, I hate to admit, and felt this way myself (oh the irony). This was something I grew out of rather quickly though. Like at 14.

Don't worry - I used to be like that too. I think a lot of guys were.

Good on you to have grown out of it early. I know a lot of guys around my age now (I'm 20) that haven't... and they're my friends. It's tough being around them when they're drunk, trust me.

[al8]

To put it differently, I think the idea that a girl can be attracted by another girl is not really challenging to the average straight guy, but the idea that a girl can live perfectly well, including sexually, without a guy, causes more problem.

Well especially if it's a beautiful girl they have a cruch on.

I think it's then more acurate to say that the men in general are totally okey with bisexual women.

[Elly]

I think it's then more acurate to say that the men in general are totally okey with bisexual women.

I don't think it's true. I would rather say the act of "female homosexuality" is seen as OK only as long as it is done for the men, whether it is pornography, "threesome", etc. I think a bisexual woman who want to have sex with a woman only for her pleasure (and the other woman's) would face the majority of same problems than a 100% lesbian.

[Module]

Elly hit the nail on the head.
It's easy to say that because men find lesbian sex arousing that lesbians face less homophobia than gay men; really, that's definitely not the case.
Lesbian sex is acceptable on the condition that the women having sex with eachother aren't really lesbians.
The positive depictions of lesbians exist from the sexual perspective of men. Sometimes men are involved, like in pornography or on TV, where the lesbian sex becomes bisexual. Lesbian sex is never depicted from the lesbian perspective, in the context of genuine homosexual relationships, in a sexual environment of which men are not a part, but it is depicted essentially as something which is happening for the viewing pleasure of men.
When it comes to genuine homosexual relationships between women, they face just as much or more homophobia than gay men.
The 'positive' stereotypes of lesbians exist only in reference to 'lesbian sex' rather than female homosexuality. Gay women, who have no sexual desire to be with men and have relationships with women are stereotyped very negatively, far more so, from my perspective, than gay men are. They're stereotyped as masculine, bullish, dominating and unattractive. At least gay men are typically represented, albeit often humorously exaggerated, in a positive light. The only way gay women can be represented on TV is when the potential offensiveness is softened by a male presence.
(Also, consider the typical representation of transpeople - an attractive transwoman who causes humorous confusion and embarrassment for some poor straight man? You hardly ever see transmen on television - people aren't interested, or they're put off by it!)
Serious, realistic representation of homosexual relationships in the media seem to be those between gay men. Mainstream TV homosexual relationships for the most part are presented from a male perspective, especially those between women.

[Rascolnikova]

I know - and I'm sure many of you do too - many guys who think "Lesbians? Hellllls yes!!" but are against gays (not to stir up debate about the diff b/w lesbians and gays though).

I have a few points for discussion:

- Why is it that lesbians are most commonly portrayed as hyper-sexual people, with an apparently strong desire to make out with each other as much as possible? Also, they're usually shown as being very attractive.

Many lesbians that I've seen/know are average women and do not just randomly make out in public. This can actually speak for my experience with nearly all homosexuals.


- What is with some men and their obsession with lesbians? Why is it so attractive to them? I'm a man, but I don't find it as exciting as some other men do.

- The bias some men have towards lesbians but against gays. It's almost as if they think that if their pals see them condoning gay activity, it makes them gay or something silly like that. What's the deal?

What? The media got something wrong?

heaven forfend.


I think the hyper-sexualization of lesbians is the logical extension of the hyper-sexualization of women. Note that in all cases, objectification is central to the type of sexuality portrayed; the hyper-sexualized attractive lesbian who makes out in public, the asexual (since her sexuality is not for me) butch lesbian, the straight woman--who, most comfortably falling into the role of sexual object for me--retains the largest vestiges of her personhood.

The L word is pretty much soft-core porn (according to an ex-girlfriend who watches it for that reason), so I don't think we can say it is valid evidence against the trend that positive portrayals of lesbians in the media are essentially pornographic.

[communard resolution]

"Usually" in this case meaning "in pornography", right?

I don't think that pornography and its dynamics exist in isolation from culture in general - especially since with the arrival of 'lads mags' and the internet porn has become part of mainstream culture.

Have you heard Kate Perry's pop songs? In "Ur so Gay" she complains about her ex-boyfriend's being insufficiently heterosexual/masculine and suggests he should really be gay. Althought Perry denies it, the song obviously implies that being gay is an inferior, 'lame' thing to be. Her other hit is called "I Kissed A Girl (And I Liked It)". So the message is the same as in mainstream porn: 'gayness' in men = lame, girls kissing = hot.

I think it's fairly straightforward really: straight men don't like lesbians, but they do like bisexual women. It's all about sexual availability for males. Kate Perry might be cynically catering towards this, but there are many women who accept such sentiments as normal, it's not just men. It's a case of the 'colonised adopting the language of the coloniser', if you will.

[Guerrilla22]

It's a new twist on the same old sexist ideas. You have various media outlets and popular culture presenting this idealized version of what a woman should be. Lesbians are being presented as lustful, attractive females identical to the idealized image of the female that has been presented through the years.

This image of the super hot, and incredibly sexual lesbian is presented because in large this is men's idea of what a lesbian should be. Of course, we all know just as is the case with straight women, the idealized image of lesbians is just a fantasy.

[benhur]

Like others mentioned, it's primarily to target the male audience. But I am curious about one thing. Are there women here or do you know women who feel the same way about (male) gay stuff, as men do about lesbian stuff?

In my experience, it's always the men going crazy about lesbian action, I am yet to come across women who feel that way about men doing similar things.

Isn't that strange, I mean, both genders have the same desires and impulses, then why is it men feel this, and women don't?:confused:

[communard resolution]

Are there women here or do you know women who feel the same way about (male) gay stuff, as men do about lesbian stuff?

Yes, I know at least one woman who'll watch gay porn rather than straight porn because "the guys are hotter".

Then again, I know at least one woman who finds gay porn "gross".

[benhur]

Yes, I know at least one woman who'll watch gay porn rather than straight porn because "the guys are hotter".

Then again, I know at least one woman who finds gay porn "gross".

Most men love girl fights, whereas women have little interest in watching men fight. For some reason, both genders seem to react differently to girl on girl and boy on boy action, be it kissing or fighting or whatever else.