Opinions on Ultra-Conspiracy

[BlackCapital]

Over the past few years I've stumbled upon a large amount sites, organizations, and videos with people suggesting, providing evidence of (of course questionable), and theorizing about ultra-secret government agencies or projects. These have included subjects such as extremely advanced technologies in medicine, secret space programs,vast underground bases, military weapons, black budget spendings, and ties to aliens.

Although I admit I find it amusing, generally I dismiss most of these as either attention seekers, mentally ill, or just dumb. There is however alot of convergence on some of these issues. The only thing that makes me step back and reevaluate whether I want to entirely ignore this is the sometimes strange deaths of many of these figures they idolize. Heres a site that has many of them condensed in short summaries:
projectcamelot.org/tribute .html
(need a few more posts to post real links, hope I wont get annihilated for this.)

Anyhow, I have an admiration for the collective intelligence of these forums and I would like to know what everyone else thinks about these groups and their claims. Some truth to them or complete wackos?

[GPDP]

While I doubt anyone here denies that there is certainly a certain conspiratorial element to some of the dealings of the ruling class (the formation of certain treaties are made mostly in secret with little to no reporting from the mainstream media and almost no input from the general public, for example), it is never wise to delve too deep into the NWO/Illuminanti/reptilian/alien crap, not just because of the content of these theories, but also because of who propagate them.

The main instigators in question tend to be on the far-right, and the implications of this are obvious. They tend to appeal to some sense of urgency, that the country/government/world has been hijacked by a certain cabal bent on world domination or other sinister goals (often implying that their goal is a totalitarian "communist" world government), and thus must be exposed so that we can get back to some made-up good times when this was supposedly not the case. They blame the problems and atrocities of the country/world on this cabal, thus conveniently shuffling aside all questions on whether it is the system itself that is at fault, and not who's running it.

Have there been conspiracies on the scale of which they speak? Most likely, yes. But these people are the type to relegate every conflict, every wrongdoing, every questionable act of government on a massive conspiracy, and thus feel it is up to them to pick up the "loose change", not matter how ridiculous and far-fetched their conclusions are. They do not question dynamics, and they have neither the time (or the brains, sometimes) to engage in more sound methodology and analysis.

It's not capitalism that is the problem, but the evil Communist Nazi Jew cabal, they say.

[mikelepore]

They might have some credibility if they were also critical of the one main conspiracy that is actually known to exist in society, which is the conspiracy by the powerful few to continue the flow of wealth in one direction from the poor to the rich, and to make the poor think that they like it and consent to it. But as long as the conspiracy faddists can't even see that most obvious one, and then they want to talk about Area 51, they have no credibility with me. When someone can't find the elephant in their own living room, I don't want to hear a lecture from them about how cleverly perceptive they are.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Also, there is the issue that governments just aren't that competent.

[mikelepore]

"Lecture rooms on mineralogy, on astronomy, on the differential calculus, on law, on electricity, on anatomy, on all of these and similar subjects, are not liable to become centers from which mental corruption radiates. True, there may be, as there often is, corruption in the appointment of the professors in these, as in all other, branches - but the corruption ends there. The reason is obvious. There is no motive for misdirecting instruction. There may be lack-of-uptodateness; there may be even ignorance; a set purpose to corrupt and mislead is not likely. It is otherwise with regard to the social sciences. Some indirectly, most of them directly, bear upon the class struggle. Indeed, it would go hard to pick out one branch of the social sciences that is not begotten of the palpitations of the class struggle. Where the class struggle palpitates, material interests are at stake. It is an established principle that the material interests of a ruling class, in part, promote immorality. To promote incapacity to reason upon the domain of sociology is one of the corrupt practices of ruling class material interests."

--- Daniel De Leon, letter to C. H. Chase, 1913

[GPDP]

"Lecture rooms on mineralogy, on astronomy, on the differential calculus, on law, on electricity, on anatomy, on all of these and similar subjects, are not liable to become centers from which mental corruption radiates. True, there may be, as there often is, corruption in the appointment of the professors in these, as in all other, branches - but the corruption ends there. The reason is obvious. There is no motive for misdirecting instruction. There may be lack-of-uptodateness; there may be even ignorance; a set purpose to corrupt and mislead is not likely. It is otherwise with regard to the social sciences. Some indirectly, most of them directly, bear upon the class struggle. Indeed, it would go hard to pick out one branch of the social sciences that is not begotten of the palpitations of the class struggle. Where the class struggle palpitates, material interests are at stake. It is an established principle that the material interests of a ruling class, in part, promote immorality. To promote incapacity to reason upon the domain of sociology is one of the corrupt practices of ruling class material interests."

--- Daniel De Leon, letter to C. H. Chase, 1913

Correct. When it comes to societal problems, class is almost always absent from the discourse. It is a taboo subject that no scholar wedded to the hegemonic ideology of the ruling class dares to touch. Yet they will mislead, and talk about conspiracies and/or the incompetence of our leaders. Same with these clowns. Class has absolutely no bearing on their analysis. Hell, it may not even mean anything to them in the first place.

[BlackCapital]

I agree with everything that has been said so far, and I think all of us have a similar opinion about the predominately right-wing NWO/Illimunati bullshit, which sounds like a rejected plot line for a Captain America comic.

That being said, there still remains organizations and individuals who suggest similar conspiracy (excluding NWO for a moment) that don't seem to have much of a political agenda. This is what I was more interested in.

Although most of it is very difficult to believe and lacking evidence in many circumstances, it doesn't seem completely unreasonable that the elite do have certain en devours that we probably wouldn't believe if we were told.

[GPDP]

Again, as long as they don't understand that these conspiracies, true or false as they may be, occur within the framework of a larger system, I would still be reluctant to pay much heed to them. We could certainly look at their arguments and determine if what they say is valid or not, and thus incorporate any valuable knowledge that they may bring, but to work with such groups would be a bit off IMO.

[jake williams]

Also, there is the issue that governments just aren't that competent.
This is a very significant point that we shouldn't forget. People with these types of theories tend to imply a certain perfectness and competence that is almost less likely than UFOs.

There are some other significant points we shouldn't forget, however. First, there's much better evidence than what they typically present for real covert government violence. They don't seem interested in using court documents or even admissions by officials because it detracts from the "secretness" and specialness of their claims. Just given history, and the obsession with secretiveness and power by governments, there's almost certainly some unhappy shit going on that we don't know everything about. The US government has secretive organizations. It's more unsurprising than anything else though.

There is also the point that conspiracy theorists tend to be oppressed, intellectually isolated people. They're the victims of conspiracy and they know it, what they don't understand is the actual mechanism of their oppression. A lot of times they're intelligent people faced with an intellectual culture that actively works against their own class interests, and that sort of thing makes you feel like there's some sort of a "conspiracy" even if you have no idea how it works. So there's certainly a good explanation for the sentiment, even if their actual theories about how the world works are ridiculous.

Not to mention that they tend to direct their anger at the "evil Government" as opposed to real power functions, something that is actively encouraged by capitalist ideology.

[Wake Up]

i think that these theorists are people who see problems with the world but the only explanation they can find is some long winded conspiracy. There targets are often very specific - George Bush, Masons, jews etc but if they took a step back they would see that the connection between all these groups are that they are rich authority figures trying to stay that way.
Therefore these people could be easily persuaded into seeing the greater problem and would make good leftists.

[Some Red Guy]

I consider myself a conspiracy theorist. I believe for example that 9/11 was probably an inside job of sorts and that the world is slowly turning into a fascist police state. An Elite on the top calling the shots is not impossible, but I don't forget that the very system is the real enemy.
I tend to ignore the religious weirdoes, new agers, and far right lunatics like Alex Jones, who sees communists in his soup and blames them for everything the capitalist imperialists does. I don't support Ron Paul either; he's just as bad as the rest. I suppose there may be a larger connection between the high rank neo-cons, fascists, capitalists etc. but it has certainly nothing to do with one "race" or religion enslaving another, and the left has nothing to do with this. Like Wake Up says many "tinfoil hats" could potentially make good leftists if properly converted.

[Wake Up]

I suppose there may be a larger connection between the high rank neo-cons, fascists, capitalists etc.

There is. All those groups you mention are people in power. As history shows conclusively the people who are in power do not want to give it up and so will do almost anything to keep the status quo

[The Idler]

There is a good article at Workers Liberty (http://www.workersliberty.org/node/8238).
I usually say there are some conspiracies Gladio, Chechen false flag bombings in 1999 and spin like finding the passport of a hijacker in ground zero.
But I usually ask them to apply Occam's Razor to all the situations they think are conspiracies.
Plus I remind them that conspiracists usually want honest capitalism rather than any other system.

[The Idler]

I consider myself a conspiracy theorist. I believe for example that 9/11 was probably an inside job of sorts and that the world is slowly turning into a fascist police state. An Elite on the top calling the shots is not impossible, but I don't forget that the very system is the real enemy.
I tend to ignore the religious weirdoes, new agers, and far right lunatics like Alex Jones, who sees communists in his soup and blames them for everything the capitalist imperialists does. I don't support Ron Paul either; he's just as bad as the rest. I suppose there may be a larger connection between the high rank neo-cons, fascists, capitalists etc. but it has certainly nothing to do with one "race" or religion enslaving another, and the left has nothing to do with this. Like Wake Up says many "tinfoil hats" could potentially make good leftists if properly converted.
Ron Paul is not a conspiracist.
Alex Jones is not far-right he is a soft-right conservative by American standards.

[jake williams]

Ron Paul is not a conspiracist.
Ron Paul is a psychopath.


Alex Jones is not far-right he is a soft-right conservative by American standards.
It depends what opinions of his you're talking about. When he interviewed Chomsky they agreed about a lot. He's also got this psychotic fear of "globalism".

[Invincible Summer]

It's not capitalism that is the problem, but the evil Communist Nazi Jew cabal, they say.

Correction: evil Communist Nazi Jew Reptilian Nephilim cabal :cool:

[Comrade_Red]

On the issue of conspiracy theorists,
i have to admit i once subscribed to this kind of stuff, before getting into socialism and communism, etc. i still have ties to people that are into this scene. And the nature of it gets on my nerves, but i do believe it is healthy in the sense that it gets people to question authority. And, many things they talk about are as a matter of fact true. However, many of the things they say, i.e their very dissorted view of communism, is bad, and the entire approach is silly. But, i do think that with the right approach, you could tell these people that communism/socialism is as a matter of fact a good thing, as i have done.

i think that it reflects upon people who are uninformed about the way the world really works mistrusting their governments.

[Invincible Summer]

Has anyone noticed that a lot of conspiracy theorists are Libertarians (in the American sense)?

[Q]

The conspiracy theorists are all part of a big conspiracy! Isn't that obvious?!

[The Idler]

Ron Paul is a psychopath.


It depends what opinions of his you're talking about. When he interviewed Chomsky they agreed about a lot. He's also got this psychotic fear of "globalism".
Alex Jones accused Chomsky of groupthink and being a New World Order shill. Alex Jones is basically a conservative, in the video below he defends the founding fathers and defends gun ownership. I don't think he's libertarian or far right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0APTn1EPg9E

[Comrade_Red]

granted, they did disagree about some things, but they also agreed about many things. So yeah.

and yes, i have noticed many of them are libertarians.

[Cunning_plan]

Isn't the real stuff enough to deal with :(

still remember being a joburg when we got told us and saudi had debated us dropping human rights if saudi stayed away from kyoto...NWO theories are just a way of not seeing the forest for the trees....

though for what its worth, the Tesla stuff i do believe.

[GPDP]

Has anyone noticed that a lot of conspiracy theorists are Libertarians (in the American sense)?

That's because, being libertarians, they are staunch supporters of an idealist version of capitalism, and thus when real-world capitalism fails to deliver, to them, it's not because of flaws inherent to the capitalist system, but because of some entity sabotaging capitalism for its own ends.

They go into their analysis of the world assuming that capitalism is about freedom and liberty and what not, and thus is the best of all possible systems. They treat it almost like a religion. To them, capitalism ought to be infallible. If questionable things are happening under a capitalist system, and freedoms are being taken away, it's because of those pesky NWO bankers that hijacked it, with the complicity of the US government.

But again, these tinfoil-hatters are mostly limited to the internet. Yes, they sometimes go out into the streets, rambling about how 9/11 was an inside job, and holding their Ron Paul signs, but outside of that, they are but an annoyance for us to deal with on message boards.