Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine

[Holden Caulfield]

i have just seen these chaps in a picture thread, can anybody give me a pretty detailed (hence why not in learning) account of them.

On wiki it states they have claimed responsibility for several suicide bombings which seems strange for a secular communist group.

[Leo]

They started suicide attacks after their leader Ali Abu Mustafa was killed.

[BobKKKindle$]

They have a website of their own here:
http://www.pflp.ps/english/

The PFLP is responsible for suicide bombings and also carries out attacks in cooperation with other Palestinian organizations. This derives partly from the fact that the resistance movement in general does not have access to the same military equipment as Israel and so are forced to resort to rudimentary weapons such as rocket attacks and suicide bombings. You may find the PFLP founding statement interesting:

http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=founding-document-popular-front-liberation-palesti

[Leo]

The PFLP is responsible for suicide bombings and also carries out attacks in cooperation with other Palestinian organizations. This derives partly from the fact that the resistance movement in general does not have access to the same military equipment as Israel and so are forced to resort to rudimentary weapons such as rocket attacks and suicide bombings.

This was not the reason behind them using suicide bombings, the PFLP had opposed them until Ali Abu Mustafa's death which was quite recent.


"Israel has created a resistance in every house!" - Khaled Meshaal

It is quite a nerve to quote that gutless rat hiding in his den in Damascus while hard working Palestinian proletarians are sent to die for his interests.

[Yehuda Stern]

The PFLP is a Stalinist group with roots in the Arab Nationalist Movement, which adopted a Guevarist outlook. For decades it has stuck by Fatah through all its betrayals, including its attack on Gaza at Israel's service. Still, I believe that there are many honest militants in its ranks whose recruitment any revolutionary would be interested in.


This derives partly from the fact that the resistance movement in general does not have access to the same military equipment as Israel and so are forced to resort to rudimentary weapons such as rocket attacks and suicide bombings.

Bullshit - it derives from the petty-bourgeois character of the PFLP, which uses Guevarist methods instead of Marxist methods to fight imperialism.

[Woland]

Are PFLP (JUST the organisation) listed as a terrorist group in the EU?

[BobKKKindle$]

Bullshit - it derives from the petty-bourgeois character of the PFLP, which uses Guevarist methods instead of Marxist methods to fight imperialism.

Fair enough - I'll take your word for it.


For decades it has stuck by Fatah through all its betrayals, including its attack on Gaza at Israel's service

Is this a fair appraisal, given that the PFLP, in common with other allegedly left-wing organizations in Palestine, broke away from the executive committee of the PLO in protest against the committee's decision to support a two-state solution to the conflict and make concessions to Israel, instead of maintaining a principled stance by calling for Israel's destruction and the creation of a unitary state encompassing the whole of what is currently Israel and areas nominally under the control of the PA? Granted, the PFLP later re-joined the executive committee, but surely their behaviour shows that the leadership did, at some point in the past, understand the ineffectivness of a two-state solution? In this (http://www.fightbacknews.org/2003-3-summer/pflp.htm) interview, Saadat also points out that the Oslo Accords have "internal contradictions" and have not been able to create a just and durable arrangement.

[Jorge Miguel]

PFLP - "petty bourgeois". Says the labour aristocrat from Israel.

[RaiseYourVoice]

Are PFLP (JUST the organisation) listed as a terrorist group in the EU?
they are, comrades from www.fightsandlovers.org have a trial for selling pflp tshirts.

[Pogue]

The PFLP is a Stalinist group with roots in the Arab Nationalist Movement, which adopted a Guevarist outlook. For decades it has stuck by Fatah through all its betrayals, including its attack on Gaza at Israel's service. Still, I believe that there are many honest militants in its ranks whose recruitment any revolutionary would be interested in.



Bullshit - it derives from the petty-bourgeois character of the PFLP, which uses Guevarist methods instead of Marxist methods to fight imperialism.

What is Guevarist, and how is it in anyway linked to being petty-bourgeois?

[Pogue]

PFLP - "petty bourgeois". Says the labour aristocrat from Israel.

How is he a labour aristocrat?

[Holden Caulfield]

They started suicide attacks after their leader Ali Abu Mustafa was killed.




The PFLP is responsible for suicide bombings and also carries out attacks in cooperation with other Palestinian organizations. This derives partly from the fact that the resistance movement in general does not have access to the same military equipment as Israel and so are forced to resort to rudimentary weapons such as rocket attacks and suicide bombings.

what drives them to carry out suicide attacks, sheer extremeism and conviction or the same kind of religious zeal one would assume is behind such an attack?

It seems strange that a so-called left wing group would carry out suicide attacks on Israeli civilians,

[Pogue]

what drives them to carry out suicide attacks, sheer extremeism and conviction or the same kind of religious zeal one would assume is behind such an attack?

It seems strange that a so-called left wing group would carry out suicide attacks on Israeli civilians,

IRA, INLA, etc.

[Holden Caulfield]

IRA, INLA, etc.
suicide attacks:confused:

[Leo]

what drives them to carry out suicide attacks, sheer extremeism and conviction or the same kind of religious zeal one would assume is behind such an attack?If you ask me it has got more to do with PFLP getting closer to Hamas especially after Abu Ali Mustafa's death than anything else. PFLP is quite a minor force today in Palestinian politics, and while attempting to appear to take the middle position in the Hamas-Fatah conflict, they can be regarded to be basically tailing Hamas. Unsurprisingly they called for national unity during the Gaza attacks, which effectively means following the Hamas leadership.

[Pogue]

suicide attacks:confused:

Holden was emphasising why leftist groups would attack civilians, as thats the shocking part. But other 'leftist' groups have done similar, although as you say, yes, without the suicide.

[Devrim]

Holden was emphasising why leftist groups would attack civilians, as thats the shocking part. But other 'leftist' groups have done similar, although as you say, yes, without the suicide.

The Tamil Tigers were an avowedly socialist organisation which used suicide attacks.

Devrim

[Pogue]

The Tamil Tigers were an avowedly socialist organisation which used suicide attacks.

Devrim

well ok then

[Coggeh]

PFLP - "petty bourgeois". Says the labour aristocrat from Israel.
Heh ? :confused:

[Woland]

they are, comrades from www.fightsandlovers.org have a trial for selling pflp tshirts.

Thanks for the answer, but this is goddamn ridiculous; 'Trial for selling pflp tshirts' stupidity reaches a new high.


PFLP - "petty bourgeois". Says the labour aristocrat from Israel.

:laugh: Oh this is awful.

[redguard2009]

Snap snap snap.

Truth be told, I have a hell of a lot more respect for the PFLP as a leftist guerilla/resistence movement than I do any of the others. There's nothing perfect about them, but I think they are doing an admirable job for the situation they have had to deal with -- namely, complete military superiority by Israel and the rise in extremist fundamentalism in mainstream Palestinian politics. It's fairly obvious that of the PFLP were incapable of adapting in such a way -- as "backwards" ideologically as it may seem -- they would not exist and the resistence movement against Israeli imperialism would be dominated solely by Muslim extremists and obvious Palestinian bourgeoisie elements.

[Magdalen]

As a comrade recently noted in another thread, the PFLP are certainly still active, and should be praised for their valiant anti-Zionist resistance, as well as their Marxist background. Yehuda is certainly out of line to assert that the PFLP are 'petty-bourgeois' without a shred of evidence. The PFLP are still a threat to the Zionist state, as illustrated by their assassination of the Israeli Tourism Minister in October 2001, and their current actions in Gaza. The Israelis also clearly regard the PFLP as a threat, judging by their massive military operation in Jericho in March 2006 to prevent the release of PFLP General Secretary Ahmad Sa'adat, and the 30-year prison sentence handed down to Comrade Sa'adat on Christmas Day last year.

However, it must be acknowledged that the PFLP are not the strongest resistance organisation in Palestine, regardless of the worthiness of their politics. Redguard2009's criticises Hamas (I assume he was referring to Hamas) as 'extremist fundamentalists', while failing to acknowledge the heroic struggle being led by Hamas in Gaza. As Marxist-Leninists, it is our duty to give Hamas unconditional military support against Zionism. A victory for Hamas in Gaza would be a sore blow for imperialism.

Hamas, the PFLP, and other anti-imperialist resistance organisations throughout the world, do not use their current tactics by choice, they use these tactics because they are the only tactics available. To loosely quote from The Battle of Algiers, a film about the FLN's anti-imperialist struggle against French colonialism in Algeria: "The French have bombs on planes, we have bombs in baskets, if they give us their bombs on planes, you can have our baskets."

[Leo]

As a comrade recently noted in another thread, the PFLP are certainly still active, and should be praised for their valiant anti-Zionist resistance


The PFLP are still a threat to the Zionist state

This is pure fantasy, the PFLP is merely a minor faction now that is tailing Hamas rather shyly, they neither have the mass support or the armed strength that can even be compared to those of Hamas or Fatah.


as illustrated by their assassination of the Israeli Tourism Minister in October 2001

Although they are quite experienced with that sort of thing anyway, the fact that you are referring to an event happened seven years earlier does not support your point at all.


and their current actions in Gaza.

Which is quite insignificant in influence and effect compared to those of Hamas.


Hamas (I assume he was referring to Hamas) as 'extremist fundamentalists',

That's exactly what they are.


while failing to acknowledge the heroic struggle being led by Hamas in Gaza.

There is nothing heroic about these gutless rats hiding in their dens sending hard working Palestinian proletarians to die for their own interests, they are as disgusting as the Israeli ruling class, their old supporters whose crimes they share.


Hamas, the PFLP, and other anti-imperialist resistance organisations throughout the world, do not use their current tactics by choice, they use these tactics because they are the only tactics available

PFLP did not restort to suicide bombings during the height of their political strength and influence, only when their old leader was killed and they became a marginalized group that was getting closer with organizations like Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc.


A victory for Hamas in Gaza would sore blow for imperialism.

Hardly. It would be a victory for the imperialist states that back Hamas.


Truth be told, I have a hell of a lot more respect for the PFLP as a leftist guerilla/resistence movement than I do any of the others.

They are fundamentally not that different from the major factions whose leadership they have, while occasionally timidly questioning, generally accepted.


they would not exist and the resistence movement against Israeli imperialism would be dominated solely by Muslim extremists

They call for unconditional national unity with Muslim extremists, thus accept their full leadership in practice.

[Intifadah]

I have a link of gaza live but I can't post it (need 25 posts for whatever reason).

can hear helicopters and explosions and bursts of automatic fire literally every 5 seconds. Followed by the wail of sirens.

Gone quiet now, can hear what I assume to be prayers over loudspeakers.

[Yehuda Stern]

Is this a fair appraisal, given that the PFLP, in common with other allegedly left-wing organizations in Palestine, broke away from the executive committee of the PLO in protest against the committee's decision to support a two-state solution to the conflict and make concessions to Israel, instead of maintaining a principled stance by calling for Israel's destruction and the creation of a unitary state encompassing the whole of what is currently Israel and areas nominally under the control of the PA? Granted, the PFLP later re-joined the executive committee, but surely their behaviour shows that the leadership did, at some point in the past, understand the ineffectivness of a two-state solution? In this (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.fightbacknews.org/2003-3-summer/pflp.htm) interview, Saadat also points out that the Oslo Accords have "internal contradictions" and have not been able to create a just and durable arrangement.

The PFLP rejected Oslo specifically, not the two state solution itself (despite claiming otherwise; even Mahmoud Abbas still claims to oppose the existence of Israel). The PFLP may have wanted more from imperialism, but they were always willing to serve it in the same way Fatah did, just under different conditions, as their position on the civil war proved.


PFLP - "petty bourgeois". Says the labour aristocrat from Israel.

1. I have no idea what you're complaining about - the PFLP is textbook petty-bourgeois. Almost all of its members, leadership included, are students and intellectuals. It has absolutely no base in the working class or labor movement.

2. Why exactly do you think you know what social class I'm from, and even if you did know, how would that make my class analysis of the PFLP any less valid? Were Marx and Lenin forbidden to call the anarchists and Mensheviks petty-bourgeois?


What is Guevarist, and how is it in anyway linked to being petty-bourgeois?

Guevarist or Guevaraist, from Che Guevara's name. Refers to Stalinist groups that use Guevara's guerilla methods (Habash certainly claims Guevara as oen of the deepest influences on the early PFLP). Guevarism is a petty-bourgeois political tendency, as it seeks to replace the working class masses with individual 'heroes' and saviors.


the PFLP are certainly still active, and should be praised for their valiant anti-Zionist resistance, as well as their Marxist background.

Some vailiant anti-Zionism - they were part of Fatah's criminal attack on Gaza at the service of Israeli imperialism. As for their Marxist background, see above.


Yehuda is certainly out of line to assert that the PFLP are 'petty-bourgeois' without a shred of evidence.

Almost all their members are petty-bourgeois. Ergo, they are a petty-bourgeois group.


The PFLP are still a threat to the Zionist state

Except for the times when they serve it as cops and traitors to their people.


Hamas, the PFLP, and other anti-imperialist resistance organisations throughout the world, do not use their current tactics by choice, they use these tactics because they are the only tactics available.

Again, bullshit. No one's forcing anyone to attack civilians instead of government and army targets. Groups choose the former instead of the latter because their goal is not to defeat imperialism, but to pressure it to give them better conditions.

[Andropov]

IRA, INLA, etc.

The INLA never targeted civilians.

[Devrim]

The INLA never targeted civilians.

But still impressively managed to kill more than twice as many civilians as British soldiers. It is not the point here though.

Devrim

[Sam_b]

Hamas, the PFLP, and other anti-imperialist resistance organisations throughout the world, do not use their current tactics by choice, they use these tactics because they are the only tactics available. To loosely quote from The Battle of Algiers, a film about the FLN's anti-imperialist struggle against French colonialism in Algeria: "The French have bombs on planes, we have bombs in baskets, if they give us their bombs on planes, you can have our baskets."


Absolutely. It is absolutely pointless blanketly condemning suicide bombing in this way - of course we don't support the targeting of civilians, but we understand the material conditions under which it has arisen. Some groups will use this against legitimate military targets because it has been an effective technique in the past, but there are also those who have chosen this route because of the sheer desperation that they are in; the feeling of pointlessness, so to speak.

It should also be remembered that the PFLP is much more than just another resistance group in this sense. The anti-imperialist rhetoric, writings, and legacy of George Habash for example.

[Killfacer]

PFLP - "petty bourgeois". Says the labour aristocrat from Israel.

Explain that statement. It looks as though your criticising him for being Israeli.

[Killfacer]

Absolutely. It is absolutely pointless blanketly condemning suicide bombing in this way - of course we don't support the targeting of civilians, but we understand the material conditions under which it has arisen. Some groups will use this against legitimate military targets because it has been an effective technique in the past, but there are also those who have chosen this route because of the sheer desperation that they are in; the feeling of pointlessness, so to speak.

It should also be remembered that the PFLP is much more than just another resistance group in this sense. The anti-imperialist rhetoric, writings, and legacy of George Habash for example.

Aren't most suicide bombings done by religious fundementalists. I say this because i find it hard to believe that an athiest would blow themselves up, ending their life in an instant.

[Sam_b]

Aren't most suicide bombings done by religious fundementalists.

I think this is the opinion furthered by the right-wing media and such in order to villify people and not offer any real analysis as to why this tactic arises.


I say this because i find it hard to believe that an athiest would blow themselves up, ending their life in an instant

This assumes that all struggles that employ suicide bombing are based on religious grounds. It simply isn't true.
I don't find it that hard to believe that someone living in an annexed territory without basic amenities, whose friends and families have been slaughtered, who face carpet-bombing every day, who live in constant fear of their lives, would see this as their only solution.

And what is a 'religious fundamentalist' anyway? It has always struck me as one of these buzzwords that equates to sloppy analysis of the situation.

[Killfacer]

I think this is the opinion furthered by the right-wing media and such in order to villify people and not offer any real analysis as to why this tactic arises.



This assumes that all struggles that employ suicide bombing are based on religious grounds. It simply isn't true.
I don't find it that hard to believe that someone living in an annexed territory without basic amenities, whose friends and families have been slaughtered, who face carpet-bombing every day, who live in constant fear of their lives, would see this as their only solution.

And what is a 'religious fundamentalist' anyway? It has always struck me as one of these buzzwords that equates to sloppy analysis of the situation.

Religious Fundementalist is a fairly simply term...

I think it's fair to say that most suicide bombing has been done in Islamic countries/by Islamic people. Yes someone who lost their entire family may blow themselves up, but i'm sure that without religion they would take up arms but not blow themselves up.

Of course this is just opinion and entirely speculative. So i could (and probably am) be chatting shit.

[Sam_b]

Religious Fundementalist is a fairly simply term...

Could you give a definition, then? Purely out of interest.


but i'm sure that without religion they would take up arms but not blow themselves up.

To be honest, I do think thats speculative. But I think its safe to say none of us really understand what must go through these people's heads before doing it.

[Killfacer]

I guess that in the context that i was using it:

A person who follows a particular religon/religious text in an extremely dogmatic way. A person who beleives that only their religion is correct and is willing to defend it or kill for it.

I'm sure hundreds of people are going to rip into that. I will wait until a couple of people have had a go at it, then i can improve it.

[Sam_b]

I'll hold off it for now personally: i've been on a strike picket since 8 this morning and about to do another sale in half an hour :laugh:. I think it's an interesting debate in itself and certainly one we should all have.

[BobKKKindle$]

I've just come back from a vigil organized by the SWP and PSC, so I'll take Sam_b's place.

Firstly, concerning the origins and distribution of suicide attacks, although it is true that these attacks tend to be associated with movements which are guided by extreme devotion to a religious or nationalistic ideology, or a combination of the two, the majority of suicide attacks do not actually take place inside the Middle East, and are not carried out by Islamist organizations. Instead, of the 271 suicide attacks carried out between 1980 and 2000, 168 were organized by the Tamil Tigers fighting against the government of Sri Lanka, and 15 were organized by the PKK in Kurdistan - in other words, 68% of attacks during this period were motivated by nationalism. (Source: Suicide Terrorism, a global threat - Jane's Security News (http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/usscole/jir001020_1_n.shtml)) This does not change the fact that these attacks are terrible, or that Hamas and Hezbollah have both organized suicide attacks, but it does suggest that the portrayal of suicide attacks in the media and mainstream political discourse is false. On the subject of fundamentalism, this is a difficult term to define and has the potential to simplify complex issues because it is used to refer to a whole range of different groups with radically different political objectives and classes bases. Socialists should fight against the growing tendency to label any belief system which derives any of its values and goals from Islam as "fundamentalist" and present a more nuanced account in order to make it clear that Islamism is a fractured movement with internal contradictions and conflicts. Al Qaeda, for example, does not operate in the same way as Hezbollah, or the Muslim Brotherhood, and yet all of these groups derive their beliefs from Islam and seek to establish societies based on the ascetic and puritanical values of 7th century Arabia, and so could justifiably be described as Islamist when discussing their ideological viewpoint. Islamism has been used as an ideology of the poor, as well as an ideology designed to protect the interests of the ruling class and provide a religious justification for the ongoing subjugation of women. These and other issues are discussed in this article by Chris Harman, which is also available as a pamphlet at your local SWP stall: 'Prophet and Proletariat (http://www.marxists.de/religion/harman/index.htm)'

[Andropov]

But still impressively managed to kill more than twice as many civilians as British soldiers. It is not the point here though.

Devrim

What I find even more impressive is those "statistics" you mention include UDR men, Loyalist paramilitaries, Republican paramilitarys and touts as civilians.
An odd definition of civilian.

[Devrim]

What I find even more impressive is those "statistics" you mention include UDR men, Loyalist paramilitaries, Republican paramilitarys and touts as civilians.
An odd definition of civilian.

No they don't.
INLA victims:
39 Civilians, 18 British Army, 13 RUC, 2 UVF, 1 OIRA, 7 UDR, 3 CivPA, 2 PO, 1 xUDR, 2 UDA, 1 TA, 4 xRUC,, 10 INLA, 2 xINLA, 3 IPLO, 2 xUVF, 1 LVF

Source: http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.pl

As is very clear from these statistics not only are paramilitaries and UDR men counted separately from these civilians but even ex-members of these organisations are.

It is quite clear that they killed more than twice as many civilians as British soldiers; 39 to 18.

If you want to compare with Loyalist paramilitaries, they killed five and a half times more civilians than Loyalist paramilitaries; 39 to 7.

However, with republican paramilitaries they nearly managed to kill as many as they did soldiers; 18 to 16.

Devrim

[Yehuda Stern]

Is there any particular reason why SWPers feel such a burning need to mention their activities when writing on web forums? Do you believe it gives you more authority, that it makes criticism of your group less legitimate?

[Andropov]

No they don't.
INLA victims:
39 Civilians, 18 British Army, 13 RUC, 2 UVF, 1 OIRA, 7 UDR, 3 CivPA, 2 PO, 1 xUDR, 2 UDA, 1 TA, 4 xRUC,, 10 INLA, 2 xINLA, 3 IPLO, 2 xUVF, 1 LVF

Source: http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.pl

As is very clear from these statistics not only are paramilitaries and UDR men counted separately from these civilians but even ex-members of these organisations are.

It is quite clear that they killed more than twice as many civilians as British soldiers; 39 to 18.

If you want to compare with Loyalist paramilitaries, they killed five and a half times more civilians than Loyalist paramilitaries; 39 to 7.

However, with republican paramilitaries they nearly managed to kill as many as they did soldiers; 18 to 16.

Devrim

Ahh useing the Cain report, says it all really.
Anyway a sligthly irrelevant original post saying the INLA killed more Civilians than Brit Soldiers.
Since when were Brit Soldiers the only instruments of Imperialism in Ireland?
There are many different guises her majestys forces use to suppress the Irish people.
UDR, RUC, Loyalists etc are all pawns of Imeprialism.
It would be more accurate to compare the pawns of Imperialism that were eliminated in comparison to Civilians.
But then again because you are useing the Cain report the Civilian figure is distorted also.
Unsanctioned killings of civilians are included in that figure.
But your not concerned with accuracy, much more interested in pushing your distorted agenda.

[Devrim]

Anyway a sligthly irrelevant original post saying the INLA killed more Civilians than Brit Soldiers.

Which was what I claimed:


But still impressively managed to kill more than twice as many civilians as British soldiers.

And you said:


What I find even more impressive is those "statistics" you mention include UDR men, Loyalist paramilitaries, Republican paramilitarys and touts as civilians.
An odd definition of civilian.

And then I showed that I wasn't including them in civilians, and you came back with:


Since when were Brit Soldiers the only instruments of Imperialism in Ireland?
There are many different guises her majestys forces use to suppress the Irish people.
UDR, RUC, Loyalists etc are all pawns of Imeprialism.

But I didn't talk about 'the instruments of Imperialism in Ireland'. I talked about British soldiers.

So am I right or wrong, did the INLA kill more civilians that British soldiers?

It is also worth noting that they killed nearly as many civilians and Republicans combined as Policemen, soldiers, Prison officers, Loyalist paramilitaries combined; 55 to 58.

Then you started to question the source:


Ahh useing the Cain report, says it all really.

But not to question the accuracy of the numbers:


because you are useing the Cain report the Civilian figure is distorted also.
Unsanctioned killings of civilians are included in that figure.

To question whether the killings were 'sanctioned' or not.

Did the sanctioned ones not end up dead then?

Devrim

[Andropov]

Which was what I claimed:



And you said:



And then I showed that I wasn't including them in civilians, and you came back with:



But I didn't talk about 'the instruments of Imperialism in Ireland'. I talked about British soldiers.

So am I right or wrong, did the INLA kill more civilians that British soldiers?

It is also worth noting that they killed nearly as many civilians and Republicans combined as Policemen, soldiers, Prison officers, Loyalist paramilitaries combined; 55 to 58.

Then you started to question the source:



But not to question the accuracy of the numbers:



To question whether the killings were 'sanctioned' or not.

Did the sanctioned ones not end up dead then?

Devrim

Yes exactly, your question is loaded with bias.
Merely comparing Brit Soldiers and Civilians when the war on Imperialism encompasses many more elements than just Brit Soldiers. It is a far more accurate depiction to compare all instruments of Brit imperialism with civilian deaths.
Are you right or wrong?
Your question yet again is irrelevant until a more indepth analysis of the figures is produced because Civilian is a very subjective word.
For example touts are listed as civilians when they are clearly collaboraters.

I question the source and the figures, I thought that was evident.

TBH unsanctioned killings are irrelevant, they are not the responsibility of the INLA.

[Pogue]

Yes exactly, your question is loaded with bias.
Merely comparing Brit Soldiers and Civilians when the war on Imperialism encompasses many more elements than just Brit Soldiers. It is a far more accurate depiction to compare all instruments of Brit imperialism with civilian deaths.
Are you right or wrong?
Your question yet again is irrelevant until a more indepth analysis of the figures is produced because Civilian is a very subjective word.
For example touts are listed as civilians when they are clearly collaboraters.

I question the source and the figures, I thought that was evident.

TBH unsanctioned killings are irrelevant, they are not the responsibility of the INLA.

Your argument here is rubbish red Revolutionary, it seems to be avoiding the issue. Thats just my observation.

[Andropov]

Your argument here is rubbish red Revolutionary, it seems to be avoiding the issue. Thats just my observation.

And what a powerful argument you have just put forward to counter mine.

It seems lost on people that unsanctioned killings carried out by Volunteers who were members of the INLA were not the INLA's responsibility.
They are no more responsible than the IWW, if an IWW member carried out a murder.
Simple as that.
In fact the INLA often took extreme measures to punish such deviances from their strict code of conduct.
But yet again such accuracys are lost in yet another attempt to slur a National Liberation movement.

[jaffe]

And what a powerful argument you have just put forward to counter mine.

It seems lost on people that unsanctioned killings carried out by Volunteers who were members of the INLA were not the INLA's responsibility.
I think it's a different case when weapons are delivered by the organisation itself.

[Pogue]

And what a powerful argument you have just put forward to counter mine.

It seems lost on people that unsanctioned killings carried out by Volunteers who were members of the INLA were not the INLA's responsibility.
They are no more responsible than the IWW, if an IWW member carried out a murder.
Simple as that.
In fact the INLA often took extreme measures to punish such deviances from their strict code of conduct.
But yet again such accuracys are lost in yet another attempt to slur a National Liberation movement.

I didn't feel a need to counter you, Devrim is doing that more than sufficiently. I just wanted to express my opinion that you're response didn't really deal with what he was saying.

The difference between the INLA and IWW is that the INLA openly exists to fight and kill, thats what people join it for, whereas the IWW exists to organise workers into the union and fight capitalism through the union and working class struggle. If someone in the INLA kills someone, they do that because thats why they're in the INLA, so the INLA is obviously responsible for arming this person, training them, and not controlling them. The IWW obviously does not arm and train members for the sole purpose of fighting and killing, so you're analogy fails.

[Andropov]

I didn't feel a need to counter you, Devrim is doing that more than sufficiently. I just wanted to express my opinion that you're response didn't really deal with what he was saying.

The difference between the INLA and IWW is that the INLA openly exists to fight and kill, thats what people join it for, whereas the IWW exists to organise workers into the union and fight capitalism through the union and working class struggle. If someone in the INLA kills someone, they do that because thats why they're in the INLA, so the INLA is obviously responsible for arming this person, training them, and not controlling them. The IWW obviously does not arm and train members for the sole purpose of fighting and killing, so you're analogy fails.

You didnt feel a need?
But yet you felt a need to say my arguemnt was rubbish, a bit childish tbh.
Maybe you can stop hideing behind Devrim and debate your position.
If it is indeed so rubbish then surely it will not be a difficult task.

Wrong again a chara.
The INLA exists to oppose imperialism, not to kill.
The INLA merely uses killing as a tool, it is not its reason for existance.
So your analysis fails yet again.
Granted there will be certain deviants within an organisation, within every organisation, any time these were exposed within their ranks the INLA dealt with them.

[PRC-UTE]

If someone in the INLA kills someone, they do that because thats why they're in the INLA, so the INLA is obviously responsible for arming this person, training them, and not controlling them.

well in fact the INLA did execute some of its members who committed crimes. but then for doing that, they're guilt of "feuding"; the criminal elements who were purged went on to attack the IRSM in revenge, with the aid of the Provisionals. so we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. whether or not the IRSM effects command and control (which by the nature of any military organisation means shooting rogue elements, as the INLA did), they will be condemned.



The IWW obviously does not arm and train members for the sole purpose of fighting and killing, so you're analogy fails.

the IWW sent a number of their members from the USA to fight in Spain. do you think the revolutionaries in Spain never made any mistakes? I dont know why I'm wasting my time asking, you probably think they were angels.

[modern.day.cheguevara]

They are a faction of Fatah who have abandoned the cause for revolution and the fight for freedom in Palestine and have resorted to negotiating with the Zionists because Mahmoud Abbass is a fat ass piece of shit.

[PRC-UTE]

They are a faction of Fatah who have abandoned the cause for revolution and the fight for freedom in Palestine and have resorted to negotiating with the Zionists because Mahmoud Abbass is a fat ass piece of shit.

I think you meant to phrase it, they're a faction of the PLO, along with Fatah.

[Jorge Miguel]

Why are these statistics even important? It's an issue of political line, not moralistic issues of figures. The INLA murdered civilians and have apologised for such. It should, however, be recognised that most of these deaths occured in a period where there was a break down in the command structure of the INLA for one reason or another. The role of British imperialism in Ireland regarding infiltration is still to be fully disclosed, but it can be said safely that British agents played a role in the INLA fuedingof the 1980s.

[Jorge Miguel]

do you think the revolutionaries in Spain never made any mistakes? I dont know why I'm wasting my time asking, you probably think they were angels.Didn't you know they pissed glitter, shat rainbows and fought the fascists with feather dusters?

[Vargha Poralli]

The Tamil Tigers were an avowedly socialist organisation which used suicide attacks.

Devrim

Some corrections.

LTTE claimed to be socialist to get support from Left Groups and USSR. They renounced after its fall.

Tigers had perfected suicide attacks but they rarely use against general civilian forces they have used it mainly for assasination of political targets e.gRajiv Gandhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajiv_Gandhi_assassination),Premadasa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranasinghe_Premadasa) and for taking out key military hardware e.g Bandaranaike Airport attack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandaranaike_Airport_attack).

They don't use black tigers to carry out attacks on civilians. Normal cadres would do that.

To add it is idiotic to moralise on actions by rebel groups - Their violence is the direct product of the forces which opppres the people whom they represent whether its Tamils or Palestinians or Irish. They are fighting a war so civilian casualties are bound to happen because it is WAR and they are FIGHTING.

Of course there is an alternative way to it which would be equally bitter to you all - non violence. You cannot have everything some things you have to lose to gain in some other things.

[Pogue]

Some corrections.

LTTE claimed to be socialist to get support from Left Groups and USSR. They renounced after its fall.

Tigers had perfected suicide attacks but they rarely use against general civilian forces they have used it mainly for assasination of political targets e.gRajiv Gandhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajiv_Gandhi_assassination),Premadasa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranasinghe_Premadasa) and for taking out key military hardware e.g Bandaranaike Airport attack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandaranaike_Airport_attack).

They don't use black tigers to carry out attacks on civilians. Normal cadres would do that.

To add it is idiotic to moralise on actions by rebel groups - Their violence is the direct product of the forces which opppres the people whom they represent whether its Tamils or Palestinians or Irish. They are fighting a war so civilian casualties are bound to happen because it is WAR and they are FIGHTING.

Of course there is an alternative way to it which would be equally bitter to you all - non violence. You cannot have everything some things you have to lose to gain in some other things.

But as revolutionary socialists we'd critcise the method of fighting an open war which could endanger civilians in the first place. The organisation and collective struggle of the workers is the only way to get rid of oppresive structures which some say require them to fight. You cannot 'defeat' capitalism and everything that goes along with it through force of arms by a small band of guerillas alone.

[Vargha Poralli]

But as revolutionary socialists we'd critcise the method of fighting an open war which could endanger civilians in the first place. The organisation and collective struggle of the workers is the only way to get rid of oppresive structures which some say require them to fight. You cannot 'defeat' capitalism and everything that goes along with it through force of arms by a small band of guerillas alone.

I agree.

My point is for majority of these groups and the people from where they have the base organisation and collective struggle is totally out of the realm of their current struggles.

You and I have relatively more priviliges to chose the way to be organised in the struggle but it is not a way for the Eelam Tamils/Palestinians. The situations can't be analysed by same scale. That is my point.

[Magdalen]

http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=pflp-salutes-people-bolivia-expelling-ambassador-o

This is an excellent statement from the PFLP on the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador to Bolivia, expressing the unity of the Palestinian and Latin American peoples against imperialism.

"The PFLP paid tribute to the people of Latin America and their struggle for justice and liberation, noting that the Latin American nations of Venezuela and Bolivia - and Ecuador, where Parliament recently officially condemned Israel, and Cuba, which has repeatedly expressed its solidarity with our people - are leading the way in the international isolation of Israel for its crimes, massacres and genocide. The PFLP saluted the ongoing revolutionary and progressive process in Latin America that is casting off US imperialism and IMF dictates, and is presenting an alternative for the world that stands hand in hand with the Palestinian people and our resistance."

[Pogue]

well in fact the INLA did execute some of its members who committed crimes. but then for doing that, they're guilt of "feuding"; the criminal elements who were purged went on to attack the IRSM in revenge, with the aid of the Provisionals. so we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. whether or not the IRSM effects command and control (which by the nature of any military organisation means shooting rogue elements, as the INLA did), they will be condemned.



the IWW sent a number of their members from the USA to fight in Spain. do you think the revolutionaries in Spain never made any mistakes? I dont know why I'm wasting my time asking, you probably think they were angels.

Nice one, but the war in Spain was nowhere the same as the odd assasination and bombing in areas full of civilians that the INLA carried out.

[Jorge Miguel]

Nice one, but the war in Spain was nowhere the same as the odd assasination and bombing in areas full of civilians that the INLA carried out.More civilians were killed in Spain by the POUM or whatever other Anarchist groups than by the INLA. Fact. But this isn't a moralistic issue, so I don't care. The real issue is political line.

[Pogue]

More civilians were killed in Spain by the POUM or whatever other Anarchist groups than by the INLA. Fact. But this isn't a moralistic issue, so I don't care. The real issue is political line.

Do you have any proof of that, or is it more of your bullshit ramblings when you denounce any genuine socialist group to dodge the issue of your trigger happy sectarian murderers being, erm, sectarian murderers?

Got any actual stats or historic proof of civilians the POUM and Anarchists killed? I doubt you have any, you don't really have much worth looking at in general. Maybe you should go join the INLA so you can do macho man poses with rifles in the streets of Belfast like a big boy, rather than engaging in genuine politics. But doubtless you're too much of a coward and keyboardist to even join a street gang. Keep sitting in your room fetishising national liberation struggles like a good little tankie wont you?

[Jorge Miguel]

Do you have any proof of that, or is it more of your bullshit ramblings when you denounce any genuine socialist group to dodge the issue of your trigger happy sectarian murderers being, erm, sectarian murderers?

Got any actual stats or historic proof of civilians the POUM and Anarchists killed? I doubt you have any, you don't really have much worth looking at in general. Maybe you should go join the INLA so you can do macho man poses with rifles in the streets of Belfast like a big boy, rather than engaging in genuine politics. But doubtless you're too much of a coward and keyboardist to even join a street gang. Keep sitting in your room fetishising national liberation struggles like a good little tankie wont you?
Knock yourself out - http://www.google.ie/search?hl=ga&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aga-IE%3Aofficial&hs=uf4&q=civilian+casualties+Spanish+civil+war&btnG=Cuardaigh

It seems general historical consensus is that more civilians were murdered by Republicans in the Spanish Civil War than the INLA have murdered. Oh and, I share your criticisms about INLA machoism as proven in other threads on this forum and in the arena of class politics. :] :thumbup:

[PRC-UTE]

But as revolutionary socialists we'd critcise the method of fighting an open war which could endanger civilians in the first place. The organisation and collective struggle of the workers is the only way to get rid of oppresive structures which some say require them to fight. You cannot 'defeat' capitalism and everything that goes along with it through force of arms by a small band of guerillas alone.

no, but victorious armed forces can sometimes open the way for the workers to take power.

however that's not the republican socialist position, that there is a guerrilla road to socialism, so this is just another of your ill informed strawmen.

in fact the IRSP were involved in more mass struggle than nearly all the trendy lefty types like you who slander them.

[Devrim]

in fact the IRSP were involved in more mass struggle than nearly all the trendy lefty types like you who slander them.

Come on that is an awful argument. First what does 'trendy lefty' mean? It is just an insult with absolutely no political content at all. Second what does it mean to compare the involvement of a political organisation with the involvement of an individual? They are totally different things. Thirdly even if you were comparing like with like in the sense of two similar bodies you would be comparing things in two different countries where the level of struggle may be different, anywya.


no, but victorious armed forces can sometimes open the way for the workers to take power.

however that's not the republican socialist position, that there is a guerrilla road to socialism, so this is just another of your ill informed strawmen.

So do you disagree with the RSM line?

Devrim

[Jorge Miguel]

So do you disagree with the RSM line?

Devrim
Source that this is the RSM line, please.

[PRC-UTE]

Come on that is an awful argument. First what does 'trendy lefty' mean? It is just an insult with absolutely no political content at all. Second what does it mean to compare the involvement of a political organisation with the involvement of an individual? They are totally different things. Thirdly even if you were comparing like with like in the sense of two similar bodies you would be comparing things in two different countries where the level of struggle may be different, anywya.

Interesting.



So do you disagree with the RSM line?


No. The IRSP line on Ireland is correct.

[Devrim]

Source that this is the RSM line, please.From the previous post:

however that's not the republican socialist position, that there is a guerrilla road to socialism,
Devrim

[PRC-UTE]

The RSM line is on Ireland. When I referred to armed struggle sometimes opening up the way for the working class to take power, I wasn't referring to Ireland.

[Devrim]

No. The IRSP line on Ireland is correct.

OK, You seemed to argue one thing and then write however that is not our line.

Devrim

[PRC-UTE]

OK, You seemed to argue one thing and then write however that is not our line.

Devrim

You're right. I didn't explain it fully.

[Pogue]

Didn't you know they pissed glitter, shat rainbows and fought the fascists with feather dusters?

lol @ all the Leninists thanking you for accusing revolutionaries of things they didn't do!

Its accepted historical fact that it was Stalin and those who followed him who caused the problems on the Republican side in the Spanish Civil War (obviously Franco was the main problem but I mean the internal disputes).

You have yet to provide any evidence of the POUM or CNT killing civilians.

[PRC-UTE]

lol @ all the Leninists thanking you for accusing revolutionaries of things they didn't do!

Its accepted historical fact that it was Stalin and those who followed him who caused the problems on the Republican side in the Spanish Civil War (obviously Franco was the main problem but I mean the internal disputes).

You have yet to provide any evidence of the POUM or CNT killing civilians.

He already offered a source. If you want other sources, see Beevor's work where he mentions some anarchist errors.

Anyway, at least I would have probably joined the CNT or POUM. I admire them, especially the Friends of Durruti. We are not criticising them, we are pointing our the fallacies in your thinking. You reject the national liberation struggle in Ireland against your ruling class because it made errors. Your naivete is showing. the revolutionaries in Spain made errors and killed innocents, as all revolutions are bound to do.

[Saorsa]

You have yet to provide any evidence of the POUM or CNT killing civilians.

Do you seriously believe they didn't? Remember the scene from Tierra y Libertad where the revolutionaries execute the local Catholic priest after liberating a town? He was a reactionary, an informant, and a civilian. There are countless documented cases of this ocurring in the Spanish Civil War, and the revolutionary forces should be applauded for these actions. You have double standards.

[Jorge Miguel]

Do you seriously believe they didn't? Remember the scene from Tierra y Libertad where the revolutionaries execute the local Catholic priest after liberating a town? He was a reactionary, an informant, and a civilian. There are countless documented cases of this ocurring in the Spanish Civil War, and the revolutionary forces should be applauded for these actions. You have double standards.The difference is that the Spanish civil war is presented as a trendy struggle of Anarchists, Trots and whoever else. It's a susscessful recruiting tool because if it wasn't for those evil Stalinists.... but that's about as deep as it goes.

The reality is that there was absolute brutality on the side of the Anarchists in Spain and Trotsky during the Russian civil war yet both of these events are presented as common liberals showering the enemy with rose petals.

When it comes to the PFLP and the INLA their line is somewhat different because those groups do not have a positive image and therefore are the recipients of moral indignation. The PFLP and INLA have done a thousand fold more to advance class struggle than the IWW and the ICC - they've actually managed to challange and confront imperialism.

[Leo]

The PFLP and INLA have done a thousand fold more to advance class struggle

Since when did hijacking planes or chopping dentists fingers had anything to do with class struggle?

I am sure there are militant workers in the IRSP and even in the PFLP who have good intentions and who have been on strikes and class struggles. The political actions of these organizations on the other hand can't be said to have had anything to do with advancing class struggle.


they've actually managed to challange and confront imperialism.

Hardly, they have both been minor and marginal parties at the periphery of the major "struggle against imperialism" in their respective countries.

[Leo]

The difference is that the Spanish civil war is presented as a trendy struggle of Anarchists, Trots and whoever else. It's a susscessful recruiting tool because if it wasn't for those evil Stalinists.... but that's about as deep as it goes.

Yes, it is all an anarcho-Trot recruitment plot, Stalinist didn't do anything wrong is Spain. :rolleyes:


You have yet to provide any evidence of the POUM or CNT killing civilians.

It is obvious that both POUM and the CNT killed civillians. The problem with the POUM and the CNT was not that they engaged in killing civillians, it was far deeper - it was joining the popular front, and on CNT's case joining the republican state as well, fundamentally ending up telling workers rising against Stalinism to put down their guns.


Anyway, at least I would have probably joined the CNT or POUM. I admire them, especially the Friends of Durruti.

Interesting, you know they originated from a split from the CNT opposing the popular front, ended up being expelled from the CNT, being declared "traitors"?

[Jorge Miguel]

chopping dentists fingers had anything to do with class struggle?Who did this? Certainly not the INLA. This issue has already been settled. Regarding hijacking planes, the reasons for which are already well known. It's a tactic the PFLP no longer uses, however.


Hardly, they have both been minor and marginal parties at the periphery of the major "struggle against imperialism" in their respective countries.How many ICC members have been murdered by Zionist or British settler death squads? How many members / supporters of the ICC in Turkey have been murdered by right-wing or Islamist paramilitaries? It's the ICC that is "minor and marginal" but this doesn't negate their contribution, likewise with the IRSP and PFLP.

[Leo]

Who did this? Certainly not the INLA.This issue has already been settled. Eh yeah it is, and INLA guy did it, but this is not relevant, we can say bombings instead of that.


Regarding hijacking planes, the reasons for which are already well known. It's a tactic the PFLP no longer uses, however.Yes, now they use suicide bombing and stuff.


How many ICC members have been murdered by Zionist or British settler death squads? How many members / supporters of the ICC in Turkey have been murdered by right-wing or Islamist paramilitaries?Are we doing politics now over how big our pile of corpses is now?

We don't have anyone murdered yet as far as I am aware, but we have militants / supporters who went through Zionist and British oppression and lots close relatives in their hands, we have militants / supporters who have been tortured, we have militants / supporters whose houses have been raided by by the police, who were arrested and imprisoned, we have militants / supporters who have been tortured, we have militants / supporters who have been attacked by fascists and Islamists and so forth.

And of course historically left communists have been murdered by various states and bourgeois organizations.

This has got nothing to do with the validity or invalidity of our or anyone else's politics though.


It's the ICC that is "minor and marginal" We never claimed to be massive.


but this doesn't negate their contribution, likewise with the IRSP and PFLP. Oh I didn't say it negates their contribution, I am simply saying that they haven't "actually managed to to challenge and confront imperialism", they were minor groups at the periphery of groups who "actually managed to to challenge and confront imperialism" and of course make deals with them as an addition.

[Jorge Miguel]

Eh yeah it is, and INLA guy did it,He'd already left the INLA at that time and a statement was released renouncing him. (See the few copies of the Starry Plough from 1987/8 for evidence). It wasn't an INLA operation or activity and he wasn't a member of the INLA at the time. What more do you want?


Yes, now they use suicide bombing and stuff.These people have no real option. People generally don't want to blow themselves up if they didn't live in a particularly desperate situation.



We don't have anyone murdered yetExactly.


We never claimed to be massive.Only in terms of collective massive ego.


Oh I didn't say it negates their contribution, I am simply saying that they haven't "actually managed to to challenge and confront imperialism", they were minor groups at the periphery of groups who "actually managed to to challenge and confront imperialism" and of course make deals with them as an addition.
Exactly. Consistently the PFLP and IRSP have called a spade a spade regarding the sellout and collaboration of the main national liberation bodies in their respective countries.

[Leo]

He'd already left the INLA at that time and a statement was released renouncing him. (See the few copies of the Starry Plough from 1987/8 for evidence). It wasn't an INLA operation or activity and he wasn't a member of the INLA at the time. What more do you want?

He was in the INLA before, joined again after and his actions were consistently defended by his organization.


These people have no real option. People generally don't want to blow themselves up if they didn't live in a particularly desperate situation.

Of course they have options, this is a ridiculous thing to say. If they really had no options first of all they wouldn't have only recently started it and second not only them but all Palestinians would be only blowing themselves up. They do it because their organizations tells its militants to do so, plain and simple.


Exactly.

Exactly what? Is the validity of a political organization measured with the pile of bodies it left behind?


Only in terms of collective massive ego.

Straw man.


Exactly. Consistently the PFLP and IRSP have called a spade a spade regarding the sellout and collaboration of the main national liberation bodies in their respective countries.

The PFLP was a part of it always, while opposed specific policies occasionally. IRSP I don't know enough about, but I have the impression that they were so much on the periphery of the movement they are a part of that what they said about it didn't matter.

[Seven Stars]

I absolutely love when trendy lefties like our pal Leo here condemn groups like the INLA and PFLP, you know, those who don't sit at a keyboard all day and actually confront imperialism. You condemn their tactics, but I would love to see what you would have done in you grew up in Gaza or in the Short Strand.

[PRC-UTE]

IRSP I don't know enough about, but I have the impression that they were so much on the periphery of the movement they are a part of that what they said about it didn't matter.

If you mean the IRSP/INLA were on the periphery of the republican struggle, you'd overall be correct, but this wasn't true all the time. while it's true they were much smaller than the Provisionals, there was at least one year they inflicted more casualties on the occupation forces than the PIRA. also their youth movement was at one time much larger than the Provo youth wing.

[Leo]

I absolutely love when trendy lefties like our pal Leo, condemn groups like the INLA and PFLP, you know those who don't sit at a keyboard all day and actually confront imperialism.Oh so you are so sure that I "sit at a keyboard all day" aren't you? :rolleyes:

I am engaged in militant communist activity, our organization is not legal, our paper is not legal in a place much more dangerous than Chicago.

I would say you are the trendy lefty sitting on a keyboard attacking all those who criticize the fetishized marginal left-nationalist groups, slandering them if necessary even.

As for "actually confronting imperialism", I don't think either the PFLP or the INLA did it at all. You don't "confront" imperialism by making a few bombing attacks. Imperialism is a world system which can only be confronted by the international working class opposing all bourgoeis forces, all nationalisms.


You condemn their tactics, but I would love to see what you would have done in you grew up in Gaza or in the Short Strand.

I'd defend class politics. I'm a Kurd who grew up in Ankara, there are some similarities between the situations.

[Seven Stars]

Man you really under estimate Chicago, we have one of the highest murder rates in the US, hell you can be shot for looking at someone funny. Turkey, if that's where you're from, doesn't sound like a great place though. But the ICC, I won't even waste my time to explain how they are a bunch of wankers. Glad you don't sit at the keyboard all day, you can get carpal tunnel from that.

[Leo]

Man you really under estimate Chicago, we have one of the highest murder rates in the US, hell you can be shot for looking at someone funny.

Actually the city I live in is criminally one of the safest cities in Europe. It is dangerous for political activities though.


Turkey, if that's where you're from, doesn't sound like a great place though.

It's not a great place.


But the ICC, I won't even waste my time to explain how they are a bunch of wankers.

They are not wankers, they are all communist militants active in their workplaces. Also calling people wankers is flaming, please don't do it.


Glad you don't sit at the keyboard all day, you can get carpal tunnel from that.

I'm glad for you if you don't sit at the keyboard all day yourself.

[Devrim]

I absolutely love when trendy lefties like our pal Leo...

But the ICC, I won't even waste my time to explain how they are a bunch of wankers.

This really is top quality Marxist analysis.

Devrim

[PRC-UTE]

Interesting, you know they originated from a split from the CNT opposing the popular front, ended up being expelled from the CNT, being declared "traitors"?

o aye, the official CNT historian still labels them a Marxist deviation that supposedly had no support.

[Djehuti]

PFLP today is quite weak, they have lost many fighters to Hamas and most of their economic resources goes to financing the families of their martyrs.

PFLP is far from perfect, but they are much more progressive than the reactionary Hamas. And they are in need of donations.

[Devrim]

PFLP is far from perfect, but they are much more progressive than the reactionary Hamas.

In the recent struggles they followed HAMAS completly to the point that there was very little recognisable difference.

Devrim

[Yehuda Stern]

Actually, for the most part they followed the rest of the PLO and Israel in trying to fight against and overthrow Hamas. Only after the Israeli state renewed their persecution of them, they opportunistically (and probably very temporarily) changed sides.

[redguard2009]

In the recent struggles they followed HAMAS completly to the point that there was very little recognisable difference.

In the recent struggles there's been very little Hamas has done which is not justified.