Pirate turtle the 11th
12th January 2009, 18:05
So this tosser on UK debate is so fucking stupid im having to argue with him over if the labour party is communist or not. Hes only gone and posted this shite
Marxism and the Labour Party
Since the advent of NuLab it might very easily be said that Labour is more distant from the Left than it ever has been. I think there are three planks to this thinking:
1) Iraq. On that let us remember that it wasn't NuLab so much as Tony Bliar right? It was basically all down to his forcing a policy to suit his world-shaping messianic vanity, his wish to be seen as a world statesman. It was a TB joyride that got us all hitched to America's hawks and their military machine. Even NuLab wavered. Robin Cook resigned, Clair Short resigned. The wider Labour party was bordering on open revolt. So let's not talk about Iraq as an argument against this general thread I'd say. It was a Tony Bliar driven disaster - not Labour's.
2) Big business. The second objection and the most obvious one is that NuLabour have deserted socialism in favour of big business. What happened there is that NuLab was founded on Third Way (centrism) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(centrism)), basically socialist ideals retained in the cultural spere but Marxian economics completely ditched. At least that's the public face of it. Lefties feel betrayed of course, the 1979 lesson remaining unlearned. The general collapse of communist economicies excused. NuLab worked it out though. They thought they could tame big business and make it serve a leftist agenda. What happened is big business tamed them. However, culturally speaking via the nanny-state, political correctness and anti-nationalism, NuLab appear to be cultural marxist nation wreckers on acid. Perhaps it's their way of trying to prove their Popular Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_front) credibility to the left in order to avoid compromising on their Champagne socialist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_socialist) corruption?
3) Dictatorial government. It's funny. In a bizarre way things have come full circle with our near Orwellian government. Social fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_fascist) doesn't sound so ridiculous on the face of it. When it comes to totalitarianism, both the extreme left and the extreme right show their hands. They look very similar. An embattled failing government like ours legislates at almost a panic rate. Socially compresses our lives with PC doctrine to hide the broken society. Invents ever bigger Government to keep it all together while paradoxically the aim is to destroy Britain as a political entity. The dagger is felt keenest in England, the heart of the country. Divide and conquer through devolution. They hate and despise Britain. As this country implodes to be reborn as a mere region of the EU and I'm sure they hope a future of world federalism next, they have to silence dissent, they have to monitor people's private business, they have to keep control of us. Luckily, balkanising mass immigration and the War on Terror provide the perfect excuses necessary to insist on ever more dictatorial government. The left-wing is just as capable of this as the right-wing. So I reject this objection too.
So what of the Labour Party at large? I mean Labour not the small NuLab oligarchy that controls it. I think the general Labour membership are still socialists. Just because they constantly get blocked by the NEC doesn't mean they aren't still there. From what I have read, the Labour Party Conference has become a set piece joke played out to a script for the media. Doesn't mean that their dwindling membership is not still socialist just because they've been silenced.
I think NuLab silenced and in some cases kicked out the loud bombastic Marxist dinosaurs because not only did they make Labour unelectable, they also derailed the new and far more subtle agenda of Post-Marxism (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/letwin-cameron-conservatism-outflanks-browns-postmarxism-448054.html) - "Politics - once econo-centric - must now become socio-centric". Hmm, that quote kind of chimes in with the opening post on this thread :)
We can call it CM or PC or whatever you like but it is clear whether we approve or not this country has changed radically in the last decade.
The cover story for this change is hated globalism, but globalism comprises some interesting properties for the left:
1) Ethnocide by migration, weakened sovereignty/identity, dumbed down pliable compliant consumer-proletariat. A liberal/leftist world citizen's wet dream right there.
2) Virulent capitalism (you can't have everything and as all Champagne socialists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_socialist) know, the odd backhander is okay for the 'greater good'. "Maybe we can dust of Das Kapital er, later"... might be the thinking. "Destroying Western culture by its own greed must come first. Muhahahaha !dvl! ").
Trouble is the NuLab political class can't let the left-wing foot soldiers know this or it would be far too public and so poor NuLab get berated for embracing globalism. :'(
Still the off-message old style Marxists continue to make a nuisance of themselves with wonderfully polite sounding word:Entrism (http://www.marxist.net/openturn/index.html) (infiltration would be more accurate).
Marxist links in the current Cabinet?
If our NuLab Government does have a post-Marxist agenda I would expect to find traces of CM/PC/left wing extremism.
I decided to look at the current Cabinet to see by a bit of googling how much historical linkage I could find with Government ministers and Marxism and Communism in general. Below is what I found out. Along the way I came across: The Telegraph's Top 100 left wingers (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/2988767/Top-100-left-wingers.html) and also noticed the 'odious' BNP's version (http://bnp.org.uk/2008/09/traitors-all-britains-top-left-wingers/).
I've based this list on a snapshot of the Government's own Cabinet listing (http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hciolists/hmg.cfm#Depts). I have included each one except the list of "also attends" although they deserve looking into too. Of course, this is only a snapshot. Former minister since 1997 would I've no doubt reveal many more interesting links. A look at the veritable army of Labour Government 'advisors' might prove more interesting still. However, even with this meager cast of the net I am still little surprised at NuLab's acceptance for reconstituted 'formerly' extreme left-wingers.
Gordon Brown has previously embraced a form of marxism (http://www.gordonbrown.co.uk/bio002years74to83.htm)
Alistair Darling was once a supporter of the International Marxist Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alistair_Darling#Early_life)
David Miliband's father Ralph was a celebrated Marxist intellectual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Milliband#Family) not that that proves anything but...
Jack Straw by constitutional change politicised the NUS (NUS is now rabid left) and "Straw indicated that his political sympathies and training could be traced back to Stalinism (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/nov2004/stra-n29.shtml)". Also his comments on Marx: does he still matter? (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/politics-and-principles-marx-does-he-still-matter-404237.html) quickly returns us to Cultural Marxism.
Jacqui Smith doesn't directly qualify for Marxism but on the PC intolerant feminist bandwagon she scores (http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/a-feminist-perspective-on-jacqui-smiths-proposals-to-change-the-prostitution-laws/).
Alan Johnson, formerly a member of the Union of Communist Workers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Johnson#Early_life)
Peter Mandelson formerly a member of the Young Communist League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Mandelson#Early_life)
Hilary Benn comes up squeaky clean as far as I can tell. Shurely shome mishtake? :o The Telegraph top 100 lefties has him on the slide anyway.
Douglas Alexander, squeaky clean as far as I can make out.
John Hutton Rethinking Marxism (http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/acd/gr/gsce/d/rm.htm) (not sure if it is the same John Hutton), but I think he is more of a Third Way guy. One to watch for leadership along with David Miliband.
Harriet Harperson Harman, radical man-hating feminist. I think she wakes up each day, remembers her surname contains the word "man" and make us all pay for it. The Cultural Marxist link here is firmly in its derivative PC: How feminists tried to destroy the family (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-430702/How-feminists-tried-destroy-family.html).
Hazel Blears, her CM appears to be PC in approving of excuses to Discriminate in favour of Islam over Christianity (http://endofmen.wordpress.com/2008/06/09/sideline-christianity-and-promote-islam-says-hazel-blears-communities-secretary-labour/).
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q318/lutonlionheart/hazel-blears.jpg
Geoff Hoon, professional politician, no CM there as far as I can tell.
Ed Balls, not much there except an apparent former dislike for Christian based faith schools but then along came Islam. Suddenly it's all good. Looks like Piers Fletcher-Dervish from Rik Mayall's the New Statesman (very funny anti-tory comedy).
Ed Miliband (see David Miliband above).
James Purnell, just another NuLab apparatchik
Shaun Woodward, former Director of Communications for the Conservative Party :'( Oh but fear not. What privileged middle class navel gazing student is complete without some Marxist dalliance (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3724/is_/ai_n8916990)?
Anne Royall, Baroness Royall of Blaisdon, curiously she has been unelected in every office she has held throughout her career (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Royall,_Baroness_Royall_of_Blaisdon). Who the hell is she?
Andrew Burnham, nope this one seems clear of Marx.
John Denham, former Trotskyist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Denham_(politician))
Yvetter Cooper, bean counter. Don't see any flies on her.
Paul Murphy, seems to come up clean.
JIm Murphy, nothing on marxism there that I noticed.
So a mixed bag there, but overall an interesting exercise I think.
As an aside to the Cultural Marxism angle I also came across this which for many is I'm sure the more obvious concern. That of closed dictatorial government making a mockery of Labour's NEC:
Revealed: The elitist, incestuous Labour clique that now rules us (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-510488/Revealed-The-elitist-incestuous-Labour-clique-rules-us.html):
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/01_04/027gordonschums_468x596.jpg
Seriously i started to rebuttel it and got to the point when he talks about how the labour party is marxist because they are PC and put CCTV up. I then thought fuck it and told him that this was too stupid to reply to.
Jesus christ i wish there was a kick in the face option over the internet.
Marxism and the Labour Party
Since the advent of NuLab it might very easily be said that Labour is more distant from the Left than it ever has been. I think there are three planks to this thinking:
1) Iraq. On that let us remember that it wasn't NuLab so much as Tony Bliar right? It was basically all down to his forcing a policy to suit his world-shaping messianic vanity, his wish to be seen as a world statesman. It was a TB joyride that got us all hitched to America's hawks and their military machine. Even NuLab wavered. Robin Cook resigned, Clair Short resigned. The wider Labour party was bordering on open revolt. So let's not talk about Iraq as an argument against this general thread I'd say. It was a Tony Bliar driven disaster - not Labour's.
2) Big business. The second objection and the most obvious one is that NuLabour have deserted socialism in favour of big business. What happened there is that NuLab was founded on Third Way (centrism) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(centrism)), basically socialist ideals retained in the cultural spere but Marxian economics completely ditched. At least that's the public face of it. Lefties feel betrayed of course, the 1979 lesson remaining unlearned. The general collapse of communist economicies excused. NuLab worked it out though. They thought they could tame big business and make it serve a leftist agenda. What happened is big business tamed them. However, culturally speaking via the nanny-state, political correctness and anti-nationalism, NuLab appear to be cultural marxist nation wreckers on acid. Perhaps it's their way of trying to prove their Popular Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_front) credibility to the left in order to avoid compromising on their Champagne socialist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_socialist) corruption?
3) Dictatorial government. It's funny. In a bizarre way things have come full circle with our near Orwellian government. Social fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_fascist) doesn't sound so ridiculous on the face of it. When it comes to totalitarianism, both the extreme left and the extreme right show their hands. They look very similar. An embattled failing government like ours legislates at almost a panic rate. Socially compresses our lives with PC doctrine to hide the broken society. Invents ever bigger Government to keep it all together while paradoxically the aim is to destroy Britain as a political entity. The dagger is felt keenest in England, the heart of the country. Divide and conquer through devolution. They hate and despise Britain. As this country implodes to be reborn as a mere region of the EU and I'm sure they hope a future of world federalism next, they have to silence dissent, they have to monitor people's private business, they have to keep control of us. Luckily, balkanising mass immigration and the War on Terror provide the perfect excuses necessary to insist on ever more dictatorial government. The left-wing is just as capable of this as the right-wing. So I reject this objection too.
So what of the Labour Party at large? I mean Labour not the small NuLab oligarchy that controls it. I think the general Labour membership are still socialists. Just because they constantly get blocked by the NEC doesn't mean they aren't still there. From what I have read, the Labour Party Conference has become a set piece joke played out to a script for the media. Doesn't mean that their dwindling membership is not still socialist just because they've been silenced.
I think NuLab silenced and in some cases kicked out the loud bombastic Marxist dinosaurs because not only did they make Labour unelectable, they also derailed the new and far more subtle agenda of Post-Marxism (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/letwin-cameron-conservatism-outflanks-browns-postmarxism-448054.html) - "Politics - once econo-centric - must now become socio-centric". Hmm, that quote kind of chimes in with the opening post on this thread :)
We can call it CM or PC or whatever you like but it is clear whether we approve or not this country has changed radically in the last decade.
The cover story for this change is hated globalism, but globalism comprises some interesting properties for the left:
1) Ethnocide by migration, weakened sovereignty/identity, dumbed down pliable compliant consumer-proletariat. A liberal/leftist world citizen's wet dream right there.
2) Virulent capitalism (you can't have everything and as all Champagne socialists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_socialist) know, the odd backhander is okay for the 'greater good'. "Maybe we can dust of Das Kapital er, later"... might be the thinking. "Destroying Western culture by its own greed must come first. Muhahahaha !dvl! ").
Trouble is the NuLab political class can't let the left-wing foot soldiers know this or it would be far too public and so poor NuLab get berated for embracing globalism. :'(
Still the off-message old style Marxists continue to make a nuisance of themselves with wonderfully polite sounding word:Entrism (http://www.marxist.net/openturn/index.html) (infiltration would be more accurate).
Marxist links in the current Cabinet?
If our NuLab Government does have a post-Marxist agenda I would expect to find traces of CM/PC/left wing extremism.
I decided to look at the current Cabinet to see by a bit of googling how much historical linkage I could find with Government ministers and Marxism and Communism in general. Below is what I found out. Along the way I came across: The Telegraph's Top 100 left wingers (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/2988767/Top-100-left-wingers.html) and also noticed the 'odious' BNP's version (http://bnp.org.uk/2008/09/traitors-all-britains-top-left-wingers/).
I've based this list on a snapshot of the Government's own Cabinet listing (http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hciolists/hmg.cfm#Depts). I have included each one except the list of "also attends" although they deserve looking into too. Of course, this is only a snapshot. Former minister since 1997 would I've no doubt reveal many more interesting links. A look at the veritable army of Labour Government 'advisors' might prove more interesting still. However, even with this meager cast of the net I am still little surprised at NuLab's acceptance for reconstituted 'formerly' extreme left-wingers.
Gordon Brown has previously embraced a form of marxism (http://www.gordonbrown.co.uk/bio002years74to83.htm)
Alistair Darling was once a supporter of the International Marxist Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alistair_Darling#Early_life)
David Miliband's father Ralph was a celebrated Marxist intellectual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Milliband#Family) not that that proves anything but...
Jack Straw by constitutional change politicised the NUS (NUS is now rabid left) and "Straw indicated that his political sympathies and training could be traced back to Stalinism (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/nov2004/stra-n29.shtml)". Also his comments on Marx: does he still matter? (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/politics-and-principles-marx-does-he-still-matter-404237.html) quickly returns us to Cultural Marxism.
Jacqui Smith doesn't directly qualify for Marxism but on the PC intolerant feminist bandwagon she scores (http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/a-feminist-perspective-on-jacqui-smiths-proposals-to-change-the-prostitution-laws/).
Alan Johnson, formerly a member of the Union of Communist Workers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Johnson#Early_life)
Peter Mandelson formerly a member of the Young Communist League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Mandelson#Early_life)
Hilary Benn comes up squeaky clean as far as I can tell. Shurely shome mishtake? :o The Telegraph top 100 lefties has him on the slide anyway.
Douglas Alexander, squeaky clean as far as I can make out.
John Hutton Rethinking Marxism (http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/acd/gr/gsce/d/rm.htm) (not sure if it is the same John Hutton), but I think he is more of a Third Way guy. One to watch for leadership along with David Miliband.
Harriet Harperson Harman, radical man-hating feminist. I think she wakes up each day, remembers her surname contains the word "man" and make us all pay for it. The Cultural Marxist link here is firmly in its derivative PC: How feminists tried to destroy the family (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-430702/How-feminists-tried-destroy-family.html).
Hazel Blears, her CM appears to be PC in approving of excuses to Discriminate in favour of Islam over Christianity (http://endofmen.wordpress.com/2008/06/09/sideline-christianity-and-promote-islam-says-hazel-blears-communities-secretary-labour/).
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q318/lutonlionheart/hazel-blears.jpg
Geoff Hoon, professional politician, no CM there as far as I can tell.
Ed Balls, not much there except an apparent former dislike for Christian based faith schools but then along came Islam. Suddenly it's all good. Looks like Piers Fletcher-Dervish from Rik Mayall's the New Statesman (very funny anti-tory comedy).
Ed Miliband (see David Miliband above).
James Purnell, just another NuLab apparatchik
Shaun Woodward, former Director of Communications for the Conservative Party :'( Oh but fear not. What privileged middle class navel gazing student is complete without some Marxist dalliance (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3724/is_/ai_n8916990)?
Anne Royall, Baroness Royall of Blaisdon, curiously she has been unelected in every office she has held throughout her career (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Royall,_Baroness_Royall_of_Blaisdon). Who the hell is she?
Andrew Burnham, nope this one seems clear of Marx.
John Denham, former Trotskyist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Denham_(politician))
Yvetter Cooper, bean counter. Don't see any flies on her.
Paul Murphy, seems to come up clean.
JIm Murphy, nothing on marxism there that I noticed.
So a mixed bag there, but overall an interesting exercise I think.
As an aside to the Cultural Marxism angle I also came across this which for many is I'm sure the more obvious concern. That of closed dictatorial government making a mockery of Labour's NEC:
Revealed: The elitist, incestuous Labour clique that now rules us (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-510488/Revealed-The-elitist-incestuous-Labour-clique-rules-us.html):
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/01_04/027gordonschums_468x596.jpg
Seriously i started to rebuttel it and got to the point when he talks about how the labour party is marxist because they are PC and put CCTV up. I then thought fuck it and told him that this was too stupid to reply to.
Jesus christ i wish there was a kick in the face option over the internet.