Theft from corporations

[Diagoras]

I saw some discussions in DIY a while back briefly address theft from places like Subway, and I am curious as to the motives and consequences of such actions, and everyone's opinion on the matter.

The general defense of theft from corporations seems to boil down to something like: "Corporations steal from the working class, so theft from corporations is justified as a form of reclamation, or at least is not objectionable because the corporation's claims of ownership are illegitimate."

A few arguments I have seen against theft from corporations include:
-Bosses will always slash employee hours/pay before risking their own profits when faced with theft, so successful petty theft hurts fellow workers first, does little or nothing to bosses, and only enriches yourself.

-Getting caught attempting petty theft (for individuals who are normally associated with labor movements) can damage fellow workers' opinion of such movements by association... especially if this theft occurred over a longer period of time, resulting in at least a perceived loss of some work hours for employees, and potential resentment by those employees towards you.


For the sake of discussion, I will take it for granted that we all agree that theft of things like food when one is truly hungry is perfectly acceptable. Stealing dvd's likely does not fall under an "immediate need" justification in most circumstances.

Opinions?

[Sean]

I don't think my opinion is entirely without support here, petty crime isn't activism. If you want to steal from a big company because its a victimless crime (unless you get caught) fine, I have no qualms with that, but I hate when its romantised as a revolutionary act.

As for the crap about cutting jobs because people steal from big businesses, thats wrong too. Large chains factor in what they call leakage or shrinkage.
The total shrink percentage of the retail industry in the United States was 1.7% of sales in 2001 according to the University of Florida's, National Retail Security Survey. 48.5% of shrinkage in that time period was due to employee theft and 31.7% due to shoplifting.Source: Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrinkage_%28accounting%29)
Its completely expected by companies and they're never caught off guard by suddenly making less than they thought because people aren't paying. They plan their books taking it fully into consideration.

The only thing that stops me from stealing is the legal deterrant, it doesn't factor in morally. Small stores however is a different story.

[Sawtooth]

If you steal from places like McDonald's or other fast food places, the stolen food probably comes out of the paycheck of whoever's behind the counter. That's obviously no good.

Shoplifting from a big grocery store (like Safeway or especially Wal-Mart) is, as Taig said, morally okay, but getting caught will land you in some serious trouble (my friend got caught shoplifting when he was 16 and the response is so over-the-top you wouldn't even expect it. He was fined hundreds of dollars and forced to do community service for stealing some candy bars). So basically it's not worth it.

It's not activism.

[Pawn Power]

If you steal from places like McDonald's or other fast food places, the stolen food probably comes out of the paycheck of whoever's behind the counter. That's obviously no good.




I don't know if this is actually true.

Anyway, who would want to steal from mcdonalds?

[Sawtooth]

I don't know. I never eat there, personally. But I do remember reading a bunch of "anarchist" literature about "how to have fun at McDonald's." It was total bullshit. Basically a primer on how to make the lives of oppressed workers even worse.

[Annie K.]

If you steal from places like McDonald's or other fast food places, the stolen food probably comes out of the paycheck of whoever's behind the counter.Probably ?


but getting caught will land you in some serious troubleJust in some places. Where I live, generally the security staff just keep you in their office one hour or so, take your name and try to scare you by threatening you to call the cops, but they don't do it the first time.

[Bilan]

Don't unless you have too.
At my work, when there is an inbalance between what is registered to have been sold, and whats counted at stock-take, its us who cops the shit.
And when people scam things, its us again who cop it.
Last night, actually, someone scammed a ticket (long story, rather ingenious way of doing it none the less) and I was the one who got in trouble for it for being $11 under.

Don't. Do something more constructive.

[StalinFanboy]

Stealing makes me hot and bothered in my pants.


And if you're good at it, it's an easy way to get things you need, or make a quick buck.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I don't support stealing anything actually. In many cases, the products are being sold so the workers can be paid(not that they're getting paid much anyway...). The more sold would=a slightly larger paycheck. Besides, I don't see it as activism. If we want to get involved with activism we can attend demostrations, riots, etc.
Also, stealing just makes me feel bad after.

[Annie K.]

The more sold would=a slightly larger paycheck.That reminds me the slogan of nicolas sarkozy's campaign "work more to earn more".
We shouldn't encourage the growth of the capitalist economy, at local as at global levels. It is not the best way to improve the situation of the workers, except in john rawls' reveries. Buying more products has never been a strategie of the revolutionnary left, for obvious reasons, and for the same reasons, I don't think than buying less should be opposed.
When the workers income is too low, or if they are submitted to abusive rules like retaining the cost of the stolen goods on their paychecks, it's the boss who should be responsible, not the consumer, thief or not.


Also, stealing just makes me feel bad after. That's why it could be activism in my opinion, as it is opposed to the influence of the dominant ideology on our thoughts. Emancipation is not only the destruction of the oppression, it is also the experience of the liberty.

[bobroberts]

I support all efforts to deflate the profits of corporations. Vandalism, theft, monkeywrenching, whatever. If you are willing to take the risks, more power to you. There are just not that many people willing to, so none of these efforts will amount to employees getting fired or having their paychecks slashed. If that's what we are worried about why bother doing anything? Let's just give all our money to them to make sure that the workers are taken care of (which they will never be). The truth is that capitalist mismanagement of the company and economy will have a far greater effect on whether or not workers suffer. Every step towards changing that will put pressure on the working class sooner or later.

[Robespierre2.0]

The golden rule of capitalism is 'if it's not nailed down, take it". As long a you don't get caught, you're playing by the rules of the system. Same thing goes for initiating proxy wars or staging coup d'etats.

[Annie K.]

The golden rule of capitalism is 'if it's not nailed down, take it". As long a you don't get caught, you're playing by the rules of the system. Same thing goes for initiating proxy wars or staging coup d'etats. As long as you live in a capitalist society, you're playing by the rules of the system. You're not gonna say that the communist parties in the US or in europe do not play by the rules of the system when they take part in democratic elections, or that the syndicalists do not play by the rules of the system when they oppose sabotage.
We're part of the system, the contradictions of the system are part of the system. The capitalism exist still only because these contradictions are under control of the states. If we were to take the capitalism golden rules literally, against the control of the states, the system would fall apart.
Imagine : the whole working class, tomorrow, start to apply this rule "if it's not nailed down, take it". It would be a revolution.

[apathy maybe]

The golden rule of capitalism is 'if it's not nailed down, take it". As long a you don't get caught, you're playing by the rules of the system. Same thing goes for initiating proxy wars or staging coup d'etats.

That's a really good quote. But don't forget the eleventh commandment: "Don't get caught.".

---

Also, as Annie K. said, if bosses are punishing workers for the acts of other people, then that is the fault of the boss, not the thief.

Don't condemn people who steal, unless they are doing it to a high level, and are basically small capitalists.

[Dóchas]

We're part of the system, the contradictions of the system are part of the system. The capitalism exist still only because these contradictions are under control of the states. If we were to take the capitalism golden rules literally, against the control of the states, the system would fall apart.



the minute i read this i thought "MATRIX!!".

But seriously i agree with some of the previous posts it will cost more for the corporations to paint over grafitti or fix a smashed window than stealing the odd sandwich or roll i read somewhere that governments spend literally tens of millions on painting over grafitti every year its just a matter of do you have the balls to do grafitti or smash a window?

[JimmyJazz]

I don't know if this is actually true.

Isn't it? In an ultimate sense it is at least: McDonald's isn't going to give up profits. So lost revenue, in the end, has to come from somewhere else. They'll file for Chapter 11 before they'll become a nonprofit (obviously). In the shorter term, I am sure they would engage in layoffs and store closings before they'd let themselves go bankrupt. I agree it's not a penny-for-penny thing, but in the end, workers always get screwed more than shareholders by company losses; it's the management's job to make sure of that.

The way to tell if something is socialist activism--whether stealing from Wal-Mart, burning police cars, etc.--is pretty simple: apply a version of Kant's Categorical Imperative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative). Just ask yourself, if everybody did this on a wide scale, would it end capitalism and bring about socialism? The answer with burning police cars is obviously no. The answer with shoplifting is, somewhat less obviously, no: if everyone shoplifted, and got away with it, the only result would be that all today's corporations would go out of business and new corporations would take their place as they did. Even more likely is that they wouldn't get away with it, since corporations would respond by using a combination of the state and private security forces to crack down. The "mass shoplifting" scenario leaves the state, and therefore the power, to the capitalists.

Like someone said, it isn't activism. If you need something to survive, of course I agree that it's justified--but that's a position that a lot of people would hold, including a lot of liberals. There's nothing particularly socialist about it.

[Annie K.]

Everyone would include the police and private security forces.

[bobroberts]

The way to tell if something is socialist activism--whether stealing from Wal-Mart, burning police cars, etc.--is pretty simple: apply a version of Kant's Categorical Imperative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative). Just ask yourself, if everybody did this on a wide scale, would it end capitalism and bring about socialism? The answer with burning police cars is obviously no. The answer with shoplifting is, somewhat less obviously, no: if everyone shoplifted, and got away with it, the only result would be that all today's corporations would go out of business and new corporations would take their place as they did. Even more likely is that they wouldn't get away with it, since corporations would respond by using a combination of the state and private security forces to crack down. The "mass shoplifting" scenario leaves the state, and therefore the power, to the capitalists.

Corporations will also screw the worker if they lose profitability, so I guess we should spend all our money propping up these companies, otherwise it will be bad for workers.

[Dóchas]

Corporations will also screw the worker if they lose profitability, so I guess we should spend all our money propping up these companies, otherwise it will be bad for workers.

and what percentage of our money spent will the workers recieve do you think?

[Annie K.]

I think bobroberts was being sarcastic.