Scottish Independence (?)

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

All right, I have to be honest. In my American ignorance I had no idea there was a contemporary movement aiming to make Scotland an independent nation until my friend (who's of scottish descent) brought it up. I wan't even aware there was a Scottish parliament, let alone one with the SNP being the largest party.

In the small amount of research I've done, Alex Salmond (despite being an evil bourgeouis politician and all that) seems like a pretty intelligent guy and in my genetic hatred of everything English I rather like the idea.

Yes, I understand that lefties generally want to get rid of all nations but I don't think that really applys to this situation since it's a question of self-determination vs not as much self-determination. What are the views on this?

Are English and Scottish cultures still two distinct things?

[synthesis]

Yes, I understand that lefties generally want to get rid of all nations but I don't think that really applys to this situation since it's a question of self-determination vs not as much self-determination. What are the views on this?

Well, Marx always distinguished the nationalism of the oppressed from the nationalism of the oppressor, and I think that's still an important distinction to make.

My position is that the weaker and more divided that nation-states become, the easier it will be in the future to harvest global turmoil for the leftist agenda.

So yes, I say, let 'em split.

[spartan]

You may be intrested to know TCOAL that Wales also has it's own assembly as well where the main Welsh Nationalist party seeking Welsh independence (Plaid Cymru) has the second largest amount of seats and is power-sharing with Labour!

Sinn Fein is power-sharing in Northern Ireland and the Cornish are getting pissed off at rich English toffs coming down and pushing up house prices for the locals, and the Cornish are now demanding their own devolved government along the lines of Wales and Scotland.

All in all Labour's devolution plan has come back to bite them in the arse as the UK looks set to split up all around them!

[Demogorgon]

There is a large movement to make Scotland independent and there is a lot of bickering over whether there will be a referendum. Though right now it looks like the most probable outcome will be much greater autonomy for Scotland, presumably involving independence in all internal matters.

Bare in mind though, incidentally, that the SNP were elected because they promised Social Democratic policies. Scotland has traditionally been pretty left wing and backed the Labour Party strongly for decades, but with Labour moving ever more to the right, the SNP saw an opportunity and took it.

[thejambo1]

its a load of bollocks really, i dont support any party but the snp are a shower of shit. they try to appeal to everyone and promise all sort of shit that is not going to happen. being an anarchist i dont follow any party but the snp are up there with the tory party as a major bunch of ****s.

[OneNamedNameLess]

The SSP also aim for an independent Scotland.

I think many Western cultures are fairly similar. If you take the UK for instance, we all have a massive drink culture, watch the same TV programmes, eat the same foods, follow the same sports and so on.

I am not sure what I think of Scottish Independence yet. A split from one of the world's major imperial nations historically and today doesn't seem like a bad idea. I think Scotland would remain a bourgeios controlled nation with little hope of implementing socialism.

In Scotland, the SNP are still known to opponents as the 'Tartan Tories' :D

[Dr Mindbender]

as i've said before i am mildly sympathetic towards scottish independence. Partly because i feel Scottish voters and taxpayers get a raw deal through the union and partly because i feel the scottish parliament represents a greater concentration of leftist sentiment than westminster.

[Killfacer]

I am sympathetic to the SNP and plaid cymru. However, neither of the parties have the bottle to go for independance. It's not in their countrie's interests. I think scotland will eventually, but i doubt that wales will ever be fully independant.

Scotland knows, at least for now, where it's bread is buttered. The SNP are in power and seem to want to build space ports as opposed to getting indepenance.

[redguard2009]

I'm not really supportive of any of these sovereigntist movements. For instance in Quebec, and Scotland. 100 years ago, sure, I would've been, but at this stage bourgeois law has pretty much given these "oppressed" peoples as much freedom as their going to get, and I feel that real, legitimate progress to more important forms of emancipation and freedom are sidelined when issues such as political and national freedom come up.

You've got to ask yourself, will the average Scot really gain much by Scottish independance? Or will he continue to be an exploited majority in a system run by a priviledged minority, whether his fellow Scots or Englishmen? On the counterside, will England's imperialistic ventures be weakened in any relevent way by Scottish independance?

Or is the whole thing really just a distraction from more important issues of emancipation?

[spartan]

On the counterside, will England's imperialistic ventures be weakened in any relevent way by Scottish independance?

I am sure that Britain's nuclear submarine thingy Trident is based in Scotland.

[Killfacer]

I am sure that Britain's nuclear submarine thingy Trident is based in Scotland.

In other words, Scotland will loose thousands of jobs...

[spartan]

In other words, Scotland will loose thousands of jobs...

Not if they steal it at the moment of independence.

Though the SNP oppose the presence of such weapons in Scotland so...

[Cult of Reason]

As far as I can see, the only substantial effect of Scottish independence would be to strengthen the integrationist tendencies of the EU as it weakens Britsh/English opposition. For a start, the Schengen question would come up for Britain again.

[Dr Mindbender]

i think if england, scotland and wales broke up, it would also weaken the british claim over n.ireland which cant be a bad thing.

most northern irish protestants identify with the union because of their scottish roots and the ulster-scots connection, they have little interest in a union purely with england.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

That's all very interesting and a lot to take in.

The biggest thing I think I've figured out is
-In the late 1970s oil was discovered in Scottish territory
-Since the 1970s, Scotland's general population has gotten poorer.

If that's the case then the Scots are getting fucked.


In other words, Scotland will loose thousands of jobs...

Yeah, but at least they won't get roped into invading sovereign nations.


I think Scotland would remain a bourgeios controlled nation with little hope of implementing socialism.

Maybe, but there would be more control of the political power by a fewer number of people.


In Scotland, the SNP are still known to opponents as the 'Tartan Tories

I've heard that. Are they a conservative party? It's hard to tell from over here, it seems like the Left v Right debate is replaced by the union v autonomous one.

Anyway, I'll look up the SSP that sounds interesting.

[Demogorgon]

That's all very interesting and a lot to take in.

The biggest thing I think I've figured out is
-In the late 1970s oil was discovered in Scottish territory
-Since the 1970s, Scotland's general population has gotten poorer.

If that's the case then the Scots are getting fucked.

Yeah, but you have Thatcher to thank for that and she didn't just fuck over Scots, did she?

Scotland got it particularly bad from Thatcher certainly, she and her party wanted to punish us for consistently voting against her, but it has been a general trend for ordinary people to get worse off, masked by an acceleration in the wealth of those at the top. This was just a bit more pronounced in Scotland.

I think the most persuasive argument for Scottish Independence will prove to be that it will prevent anyone like Thatcher ever happening again. You can bet that the SNP are praying that the Conservatives will win the next UK election because then the job of arguing for Scottish Independence will be much easier because of Scotland's less than loving nature towards Tories.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Yeah, but you have Thatcher to thank for that and she didn't just fuck over Scots, did she?

No, you're right she seems to have fucked over everyone. One mean *****.

What were policies like? And please don't say 'right-wing,' it's just that many people make it sound like she destroyed the country.


I think the most persuasive argument for Scottish Independence will prove to be that it will prevent anyone like Thatcher ever happening again. You can bet that the SNP are praying that the Conservatives will win the next UK election because then the job of arguing for Scottish Independence will be much easier because of Scotland's less than loving nature towards Tories.

That's interesting.

[Demogorgon]

No, you're right she seems to have fucked over everyone. One mean *****.

What were policies like? And please don't say 'right-wing,' it's just that many people make it sound like she destroyed the country.

A lot like Reagan on steroids, I suppose. She gutted a lot of industry as well which lead to a lot of poverty. She will also be remembered for the Poll Tax, which was the local Government tax she brought in where everybody in a local authority area had to pay an identical sum in tax (not a percentage, a fixed lump sum) regardless of wealth or ability to pay. This was brought in a year early in Scotland, officially to test it, but the response was riots and mass refusal to pay and it still got introduced in England and Wales anyway (where the response was the same).

There was major cuts in social services, which combined with abandoning attempts at rehabilitation ion criminal justice caused quite an increase in crime. She even tried to re-introduce the Death penalty on a few occasions, but most of her own party wouldn't stand for that.

Social policy was something else again. Section 28 was a case in point, that made it illegal for teachers to "promote" homosexuality, which meant mentioning it in any positive context at all. it even effectively banned teachers from stopping homophobic bullying, though of course many broke the law there.

She claimed to be a tax cutter, but in fact her Government was the highest taxing in British history, it is just that she shifted the tax burden. The rich got massive tax cuts, but taxes shot up for ordinary people. Of course the spending mostly went on things like the military and corporate subsidies (particularly to the arms industry) rather than anything that would benefit ordinary people.

I could go on for days, but that will give you a taster of her policies, I think.

[Killfacer]

i think if england, scotland and wales broke up, it would also weaken the british claim over n.ireland which cant be a bad thing.

most northern irish protestants identify with the union because of their scottish roots and the ulster-scots connection, they have little interest in a union purely with england.

Why do they sing god save the queen at football matches? I'm not disagreeing with you, i'm just not very well informed on northern ireland. I always thought they really liked england.

[Killfacer]

Yeah, but at least they won't get roped into invading sovereign nations.



They volounteer for the army. There are loads of Scottish Regiments, such as the Black Watch (i think thats their name) and they have fought for great Britain since colonial times.

I mean, Nepal has independance yet Great Britian still has Ghurkas.

[Dr Mindbender]

Why do they sing god save the queen at football matches?

Well for a start, 'god save the queen' is the official national anthem of northern ireland. Moreover though, the loyalist mentality is ''if the fenians are for it, we're against it''. Their faux patriotism is an antithesis of republicanism, not some sort of 'anglophilia'.

Anyway, it's patriotism through association. They only plead allegiance to the queen because of their forefathers, most of whom happened to be scottish and therefore now british.



I'm not disagreeing with you, i'm just not very well informed on northern ireland. I always thought they really liked england.

Pffft. Nah. Other than Scotland, and possibly the Welsh, the 2 Irelands are the only other nations to cheer the other team whenever England plays.

[Killfacer]

Pffft. Nah. Other than Scotland, and possibly the Welsh, the 2 Irelands are the only other nations to cheer the other team whenever England plays.

Most countries in the world cheer whoever england play. Hence why the whole of europe laughed when we failed to qualify for the euros. Specially the damned croats. Not laughing any more are they, Walcott hatrick shut them up. Not that i'm still annoyed about it.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

The SNP are in power and seem to want to build space ports as opposed to getting indepenance.

LoL I just saw a story about this from another board and that is a good point.

As for the idea itself, I don't think it's all that bad. Virgin galactic or whatever it's called is going to be launching in a year or two and Scotland may be trying to get the Isles piece of the pie. New Mexico is building a spaceport as well and I definitely plan to go see (and hopefully lift off from) it once it has commenced operations.

God, won't that be awesome? Flights from NYC-Tokyo, or Scotland-LA, would take two or three hours. Though it's going to take years of rich people blowing there money away on space tourism before real people like us can afford a seat and it becomes commonplace.

My being a social-democrat aside, it's nice to see that space-travel is now plausible for private companies. A lot of this has to do with the development by Burt Routan's team in Mojave (Spaceship 1 and using liquified Nitrous-Oxide and all that). I personally think we're only a couple decades away, which isn't bad at all (we're even closer to having teams of US Marines being able to get anywhere on the planet in a matter hours via space but hey, military technology benefits everyone eventually...).

But yes, it does seem a bit odd for a group like them to be focusing on something like that.

[Olerud]

I support Scottish Independence completely (and independence of all the countries forming the Uk).

[Demogorgon]

The Space thing is not a big part of the SNP programme. In fact I have only heard it mentioned once.