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redwinter
9th January 2009, 20:51
here's a letter to Revolution newspaper, www.revcom.us, published from a formerly Buddhist reader...
Buddhism: Lifes Great Mysteries Solved...by the Exploiting Classes

Greetings RCP,



Recently, particularly with comrade Sunsara Taylors speaking tour, I have seen the partyand only the party, with the goal of all-the-way liberation that is its calling cardraise and grapple with one of the greatest chains shackling humanity to this system and all its horrors: religion. In this world where human rights are ripped away in the name of preserving holy matrimony and the fascists that promote this outrage are rewarded by speaking at the inauguration of the holder of the highest office in the land, I am very inspired by your work. The Christian faith-based initiative is monstrous repression that must be confronted. But any religion is a poison that spreads even to the minds of those living alternative lifestyles. I know this because I was one such person.


Up until very recently, I was a devout Buddhist layperson with prospects of becoming a monk. Every day at four a.m. I would rise with the rest of the small temple, (a house with a garage that we led religious services in and used as a meditation hall) wash up, put on my ceremonial clothes, and report to the garage for prostrations to Buddha and morning meditation. It would last two hours and conclude with a six oclock bell, at which point I would either go to school or work, or if I had nothing scheduled, report to the basement for twelve hours of manual labor; cooking, cleaning, sewing, carpentryanything you can think of. After my return or the work period was over, it was time for two more hours of meditating. The day would conclude with closing chanting at nine. On special days known as yangmaengchungjin (specifically, I was in the Jogye Order of Korean Zen Buddhism) the meditation would be lengthened to ten, maybe even fifteen hours if the Peng Jong Sunim (the Zen Master, the highest authority of the temple) was feeling virile. On those days, no one was allowed to leave the temple, and absolute silence was maintained. Breaking the silence or leaving was punishable by a beating with a stick of bamboo taken sixteen times to the back. So was falling asleep in the meditation hall. This practice is commonplace in Buddhism.


I came to Buddhism because I was becoming increasingly disconcerted with the blind devotion and static dogmatism of Christianity. Buddhism asserted that all things in the universe were originally Buddha, the One True Nature that was perfection and encompassed all of our highest human ideals. Because oneself was a part of the universe, through mediation and hard work, one had only to discover this True Nature that was the real them, and then they would be Buddhas, which literally means enlightened ones that are free from the incessant causes of human suffering. What this said to me was that there was a religion that had answers that were verifiableif I came to this enlightenment of which they spoke through hard work and meditation, Buddhism was right!


But there was an ugly side to the Buddhist ideology that was clear to those reading in-between the lines. That was why I was told not to read once I became more deeply committed to the Dharma, as it is called. In fact, I was told not to get too involved with the human world and its affairs, especially not political affairs because they were so apt at getting people upset and creating opposing activitywhatever that meant.


Why all the secrecy? Well, Buddhism, like any other religion, is a faith founded on the bodies of the masses of people it backs up the ruling classes in exploiting and oppressing, as well as the carcasses of those who refused the faith. China, Japan and Korea have all had historical periods in which Buddhism was the state religion and non-adherents were persecuted or worse. From the brutal feudal system from which no one was safe presided over by the 14th Dalai Lama and his predecessors to the many peopleincluding Buddhist monksmurdered by Burmese caravans of death serving a military junta that promoted Buddhism to the people, this can be seen in the histories of numerous Southeast Asian countries.


And along with that, Buddhism ideologically backs up the rule of exploiting classes. The now widely-publicized concepts of karmathe rule of reaping what you sowand reincarnation hold a deadly reality for the oppressed majority that has become a widely accepted notion of social hierarchy in Asia: those born in poverty, destitution, or other conditions of exploitation and oppression by the system are there because they deserve to be; they accumulated bad karma in their previous life, which resulted in rebirth as a peasant, commoner, proletarian etc. Another major tenet of Buddhism that serves to reinforce all this is the Buddhist belief that perception and reality are one. All that we are is made up of our thoughts, as Shakyamuni, the historical Buddha called the Bon-sa (Founder/Father in Korea) said in the Dhammapala, and because of that, even if we are oppressed and humiliated by the system, to perceive of it as not being such is to make it not soTibetan peasants, however, were probably hard-pressed to perceive food being there when they couldnt kill their oxen due to Buddhist laws prohibiting the slaughter of animals and thus starved to deathwhether they thought they would or not.


My first glimpse beyond this convoluted thinking was given to me by Avakians [book] Away with All Gods!, in which the Chairman refuted apriorismreality conforming to ones perceptionand asserted the objectivity of the material world and its independence from individual will. As these things became more and more apparent to me, I eventually left the temple. The people there are now told to ignore me if they and I should come into contactI am no longer human because I stopped being a Buddhist.


As we enter into a future where the line between church and state is increasingly blurred, we have a responsibility to do what weve been doingTAKING THIS ON, and refusing complicity in the face of this silent juggernaut of fundamentalism. And this challenge is one that must be brought even to those seeking alternatives to Christianity. The alternative is revolutiongetting up and getting free. The only answers Buddhism provides are those of the exploiting classes.




With Solidarity and Rebel Love...

trivas7
12th January 2009, 20:03
With Solidarity and Rebel Love...

Beware lest you trade in the cult of the Buddha for the cult of Bob Avakian (http://home.flash.net/%7Ecomvoice/36cCult.html).

TheCultofAbeLincoln
13th January 2009, 23:01
But any religion is a poison that spreads even to the minds of those living “alternative” lifestyles. I know this because I was one such person.Ah, yes, this proves that he's qualified to lump all sects of Buddhism under one banner.


China, Japan and Korea have all had historical periods in which Buddhism was the state religion and non-adherents were persecuted or worse.This doesn't mean shit.

China, Russia, and Korea have all had historical period in which Marxism was the state religion and non-adherents were persecuted or worse.

But nobody should believe it was the belief in Marxism that was responsible, should they? Maybe it was the people who did the acts who should be held responsible and not the ideology they claimed to have. Hey, there's an idea.

More later.

Killfacer
14th January 2009, 21:22
China, Russia, and Korea have all had historical period in which Marxism was the state religion.

It's not a religion.

Invincible Summer
15th January 2009, 00:28
China, Russia, and Korea have all had historical period in which Marxism was the state religion and non-adherents were persecuted or worse.
.

Capitalist countries have all had historical periods in which capitalism was the state religion and non-adherents were persecuted.

TheCultofAbeLincoln
15th January 2009, 06:30
It's not a religion.

You kidding?

At least Jesus is portrayed as a good looking dude. It'd suck if they woke you up in the morning to go worship a guy as fucking ugly as Mao. You don't honestly believe people wanted to wake up in the morning to go show there support or whatever, do you?

Seriously, though, it might as well be a religion when everyone who says they don't agree is shot.


Capitalist countries have all had historical periods in which capitalism was the state religion and non-adherents were persecuted.Very true, though in many you won't get shot for saying you hate the status quo. Unlike every communist country that has ever existed. But let's not degenerate into this type of argument, eh?

My point was that you shouldn't judge the ideology based on the actions of a few individuals, especially in cases like Buddhism or Marxism where it's supposed to be about liberation and not subjugation.

Invincible Summer
15th January 2009, 07:00
You kidding?

At least Jesus is portrayed as a good looking dude. It'd suck if they woke you up in the morning to go worship a guy as fucking ugly as Mao. You don't honestly believe people wanted to wake up in the morning to go show there support or whatever, do you?

Ah, I see. You're talking about the personality cults. Well, to be fair, it was "only" Stalin, Mao and Kim Jong-Il (out of the Communist bunch... there are plenty more in the non-Communist list) that had such cult of personalities. And my knowledge is fairly limited as to how far and deep it reached so I don't know if it was a planned/intentional thing...




Very true, though in many you won't get shot for saying you hate the status quo. Unlike every communist country that has ever existed. But let's not degenerate into this type of argument, eh?

Agreed.


My point was that you shouldn't judge the ideology based on the actions of a few individuals, especially in cases like Buddhism or Marxism where it's supposed to be about liberation and not subjugation.

Although, Buddhism is more about liberation of the self than anything. It's pretty goddamned selfish.

TheCultofAbeLincoln
15th January 2009, 07:33
Although, Buddhism is more about liberation of the self than anything. It's pretty goddamned selfish.

:lol: That's great.

Yes, I agree with you on this.

And I agree with the original author on this point as well. I wasn't aware that Buddhism (or at least, some Buddhists) believe in the Dharma. That belief, that you are what you are because you deserve it and therefore must accept it, seems a tad disturbing to me. I am all for becoming at peace with the realities of life and death, but that doesn't mean agreeing with the oppresion that is brought on yourself.

That said, it seems somewhat contradictory to the idea of the Dalai Llama working for a free Tibet. If one believes that you are what you are because you deserve it, then people born in Tibet must have been very bad in their last life. Perhaps they were subjugating other peoples in their last life (maybe they were Americans LoL)?

Anyway, I had thought that was only Hinduism.


And my knowledge is fairly limited as to how far and deep it reached so I don't know if it was a planned/intentional thing...

I really couldn't tell you. All I know is those crowds just look a little to perfect.

Killfacer
15th January 2009, 12:37
You kidding?

At least Jesus is portrayed as a good looking dude. It'd suck if they woke you up in the morning to go worship a guy as fucking ugly as Mao. You don't honestly believe people wanted to wake up in the morning to go show there support or whatever, do you?

Seriously, though, it might as well be a religion when everyone who says they don't agree is shot.


Religion: The belief in a supernatural/mystical part of the world beyond what we can see.

How does marxism fit this?

TheCultofAbeLincoln
15th January 2009, 21:15
Put your shoulder to the wheel push along
Do your duties with a heartful of song
We all have work
Let no one shirk
or we'll fucking shoot you!

Marxism subscribes to the belief that a utopia free from exploitation is possible if we all just work really hard. Can't get too much more mystical than that.

Killfacer
15th January 2009, 21:53
Put your shoulder to the wheel push along
Do your duties with a heartful of song
We all have work
Let no one shirk
or we'll fucking shoot you!

Marxism subscribes to the belief that a utopia free from exploitation is possible if we all just work really hard. Can't get too much more mystical than that.

Yeah you can. How about a magical man in the sky whos can do everything? Or Ghosts?

JimmyJazz
15th January 2009, 22:41
I've said this a few times before, but socialism is a consequentialist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism) philosophy and is totally incompatible with the deontological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontological_ethics) outlook that marks every religion, no matter how mellow or peace-loving.

It's funny, too, because I think Kant's categorical imperative (at least my wiki-level knowledge of it) can be a useful concept in terms of simply visualizing what the large-scale consequence of an action will be if "everybody does it", and in that way it's useful for thinking about tactical things like the general strike or whatever, but when applied to ethics, it is in absolute contradiction to revolutionary socialism.

And arguably to socialism in general, since regardless of how you stand with regard to revolution, socialism is a class-based philosophy. So it necessarily entails different treatment for people depending on their current standing in the social order. That's true even if you're some kind of parliamentary socialist who doesn't believe in class struggle, because the act of implementing socialism, regardless of how you get there, entails doing things that affect people of different classes differently.

JimmyJazz
15th January 2009, 23:00
Marxism subscribes to the belief that a utopia free from exploitation is possible if we all just work really hard.

What? Marxism--the prescriptive side of it (which is much smaller than the descriptive side)--is about equal access to the means of production, be they land, capital, whatever. How does that in any way fit with the strange thing you just said?

Decolonize The Left
16th January 2009, 01:17
Put your shoulder to the wheel push along
Do your duties with a heartful of song
We all have work
Let no one shirk
or we'll fucking shoot you!

Marxism subscribes to the belief that a utopia free from exploitation is possible if we all just work really hard. Can't get too much more mystical than that.

Wait.. what's this? Ah yes, CultofAbeLincoln just making stuff up! Good job man - I was wondering when I'd run across more nonsense from you.

Say, while you're at it.. Capitalism must be magical hands descending from the sky and moving goods and services! Monarchy is a mystical crown which grants whoever wears it the ability to rule! And beavers are crazy clowns in fuzzy costumes playing with wood!

See? I can be like you too... :rolleyes: :thumbdown:

- August

TheCultofAbeLincoln
16th January 2009, 08:34
Wait.. what's this? Ah yes, CultofAbeLincoln just making stuff up! Good job man - I was wondering when I'd run across more nonsense from you.

Say, while you're at it.. Capitalism must be magical hands descending from the sky and moving goods and services! Monarchy is a mystical crown which grants whoever wears it the ability to rule! And beavers are crazy clowns in fuzzy costumes playing with wood!

See? I can be like you too... :rolleyes: :thumbdown:

- August

All I was trying to say was the point you just made. Every state that has existed has been backed up by force. To use the argument that because Buddhists back in the day used force to rule a population would have to also make us look at the history of any ideology that has held power. In the case of the OP, revolutionary Maoism.

But I'm not going to accuse a maoist on here of wanting a massive civil war and lots of death. Likewise, I would hope that one could see the blatant lie it is to judge all Buddhists, or even just Buddhism in general, as being oppressive because of the examples given. Out of all the Buddhists I've ever known, none of them felt like they were being oppressed, usually it's quite to the contrary. Not that I subscribe and I would certainly fight a power which was using force to make me change my beliefs.

TheCultofAbeLincoln
16th January 2009, 08:54
What? Marxism--the prescriptive side of it (which is much smaller than the descriptive side)--is about equal access to the means of production, be they land, capital, whatever. How does that in any way fit with the strange thing you just said?

Look, I was talking about states which have had a 'Marxist' revolution. In almost all of them it seems a state-sponsored program of organized serfdom was created to maximize production. It's true that more control was given out to a wider group, but in all cases victory of the revolution has outweighed all else. And when victory over your adversaries and a path to a greater society is symbolized by a mugshot of a dude carried around and paraded at every festival, I'd say it looks religious to me. Or, at the very least, not that different from states run by many other groups throughout history, some of them Buddhists.

But as I've stated I don't judge Marxism based on what has been done in the past and I would hope you don't judge Buddhism in that way.

Demogorgon
16th January 2009, 12:07
It's not a religion.
It was used like one. It was turned into state doctrine and people were expected to believe in it. Further local branches of the Communist Party even fulfilled the social side of religion, doing much the same thing as Churches. In East Germany, the party even offered teenagers an alternative to Christian Confirmation.

Marxism certainly shouldn't be a religion, but that doesn't mean that state religions cannot be set up claiming to be Marxist and it certainly doesn't mean that "Marxists" can't end up treating it like a religion.

TheCultofAbeLincoln
19th January 2009, 21:19
Thank you Demogorgron.

I would add that like religion, Marxism demands 100% uncompromising obedience, but unlike religion doesn't usually tolerate other beliefs.

Post-Something
19th January 2009, 23:04
Thank you Demogorgron.

I would add that like religion, Marxism demands 100% uncompromising obedience, but unlike religion doesn't usually tolerate other beliefs.

1. How does Marxism demand 100% uncompromising obedience?

If you haven't noticed there are almost as many disagreements amongst Marxist groups as there is Marxists, so please tell us how this is, and who demands the obedience?

2. But unlike religion doesn't tolerate other beliefs? Are you kiding me?!

Marxists have taken in analysis from Post modernists, Weberians, feminists etc, etc, and you're telling me that a materialist analysis of the world is more close minded than a story book that taught us to be fearful of a man we can't see? Again, evidence is required when you make bullshit claims like that.

TheCultofAbeLincoln
20th January 2009, 08:43
1. How does Marxism demand 100% uncompromising obedience?

If you haven't noticed there are almost as many disagreements amongst Marxist groups as there is Marxists, so please tell us how this is, and who demands the obedience?

True, but unless 100% of the means of production have been handed over to the workers, it's not Marxism. Complete obedience to the revolution has been required following every Marxist revolt there's been.


2. But unlike religion doesn't tolerate other beliefs? Are you kiding me?!

Marxists have taken in analysis from Post modernists, Weberians, feminists etc, etc, and you're telling me that a materialist analysis of the world is more close minded than a story book that taught us to be fearful of a man we can't see? Again, evidence is required when you make bullshit claims like that.You're right, I should have phrased that better.

The point is that in most societies out west one can hold religion and have any myriad of beliefs on other topics.

Marxism, when applied in the real world, becomes a complete devotion to the revolution. Any belief, thought, or action which is not for the revolution is against it and therefore must be done away with.

Like when religious zealots rule a country, it is considered justified to do away with all heretics whenever they come up. Moreover, I'd say the level to which the revolution dictated what was acceptable art, literature, or music is much more reminiscent of a theocracy and certainly looks nothing like a belief in the liberal values you talked about.

Decolonize The Left
20th January 2009, 23:29
True, but unless 100% of the means of production have been handed over to the workers, it's not Marxism. Complete obedience to the revolution has been required following every Marxist revolt there's been.

The means of production aren't "handed over"... The workers already control them - they merely become conscious of this and act.

Furthermore, you can't have obedience to an event (such as a revolution). :rolleyes:


You're right, I should have phrased that better.

The point is that in most societies out west one can hold religion and have any myriad of beliefs on other topics.

You could phrase it better or, perhaps a more desireable solution, you could make logical posts. Do you follow international news? Are you aware of the constant warfare/violence waged in the name of God?


Marxism, when applied in the real world, becomes a complete devotion to the revolution. Any belief, thought, or action which is not for the revolution is against it and therefore must be done away with.

Really? Most Marxists would disagree with you...


Like when religious zealots rule a country, it is considered justified to do away with all heretics whenever they come up. Moreover, I'd say the level to which the revolution dictated what was acceptable art, literature, or music is much more reminiscent of a theocracy and certainly looks nothing like a belief in the liberal values you talked about.

Marxism doesn't involve "liberal values."

- August

TheCultofAbeLincoln
21st January 2009, 01:50
The means of production aren't "handed over"... The workers already control them - they merely become conscious of this and act.

Right.


Furthermore, you can't have obedience to an event (such as a revolution). :rolleyes:

I was using it in the way that Castro uses the term, that the revolution is not an event but a struggle that goes on much longer.


You could phrase it better or, perhaps a more desireable solution, you could make logical posts. Do you follow international news? Are you aware of the constant warfare/violence waged in the name of God?

Which is why I said 'out west,' where we have a general level of tolerance for others beliefs.


Really? Most Marxists would disagree with you...

How so? Has there ever been a Marxist state where one could get a picture of the leader and take a dump on it? Or burn the flag on the steps of the capital?

It seems as out of place as a Christian theocracy were you are allowed to burn a cross and call Jesus a pig-fucker.