Anti-Semitic Incidents. [Archive]

Sasha

9th January 2009, 16:28

yes, thats what you get when the israeli's and subsequently other goverments and the media claim that all critique on israel is one on one anti-jew (i.e. anti-semite)
people will start to act acordingly.
horibel and wrong but to be expected.
dutch/german auswitch survivor hajo meyer wrote an excelent book about this:

The End of Judaism: An Ethical Tradition Betrayed by Hajo G. Meyer (http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/02104judaism.htm)

In The End of Judaism, Auschwitz survivor Hajo G. Meyer expresses in impassioned terms his dismay at what he sees as the moral collapse of contemporary Israeli society and the worldwide Jewish community as a whole. Meyer is a member of “A Different Jewish Voice,” a Dutch-based, secular Jewish movement that dares to openly criticize Israel’s policies toward the Palestinians. In his observations, deeply colored by his personal experiences during the Holocaust, Meyer compares Israel’s current policies with the early stages of the Nazis’ persecution of the German Jews. He clearly explains that he is in no way seeking to draw a parallel between the current policies of Israel and the Nazis’ endgame, which resulted in the mass murder of six million innocent people. He is merely trying to point out the slippery slope that eventually led to this catastrophe, and the necessity of foreseeing the possible consequences of a policy that oppresses and marginalizes the Palestinians in their own homeland. As a result of his experiences in Auschwitz, Hajo Meyer claims to have learned one fundamental lesson: that his moral duty as a human being was to never become like his oppressors. The End of Judaism is the outcry of a dissident Jew who is not afraid of standing up to entrenched ways of thinking about history and particularly about the Palestinian conflict, which is one of the most intractable social and political problems in the world today. “The events that occurred between 1933 and 1942…sensitized me to the discriminatory and humiliating treatment of any people forced to live as second-class citizens. This sensitivity has been heightened by the fact that the Jewish people are themselves harassing and humiliating the Palestinians. Whenever I read or hear about these events, memories from my formative years come bubbling to the surface.”

About the Author
Hajo G. Meyer was born in Bielefeld, Germany, in 1924. In 1939, at the age of 14, he fled alone to Holland to escape the Nazi regime. After the Germans occupied that country, he was captured by the Gestapo in 1944, and survived ten months in Auschwitz. After the war, he studied theoretical physics and became a researcher at Philips Research Laboratories in Eindhoven. He received his Ph.D. in 1956, and in 1974 became managing director of the lab. Retiring in 1984, he became a maker of violins, selling his instruments to professional musicians. Since 2002 he has devoted himself full-time to his work as a publicist and essayist.http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/02104judaism.htm
http://www.amazon.com/End-Judaism-Hajo-G-Meyer/dp/0978869125

meyer predicts that the actions of the state of israel will lead to a new wave of anti-semitism and may even will lead to the (moral) end of judaism

Wanted Man

9th January 2009, 17:25

Obviously, these are sick and racist incidents that should be roundly condemned.

Psycho is right, though. Indeed, the idea that Israel and its actions are a representation of all the Jews is not just spread by anti-semitic demagogues. The governments and media of the western countries that support Israel spread this lie as well.

And, while these anti-semitic abuses are terrible, they do not even begin to compare to the horrors that Israel has perpetrated, and continues to perpetrate today. Vandalism of synagogues is horrifying because of its symbolic value more than anything.

SocialRealist

9th January 2009, 19:34

Source: Monsters and Critics. [http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/asiapacific/news/article_1452514.php/Indonesian_councillors_seek_synagogue_closure_over _Gaza_attacks_]
Summary: Jakarta - Councillors in Indonesia's second largest city Surabaya are seeking the closure of what is believed to be the only synagogue in the country to protest against Israel's attacks on the Gaza Strip, a council member said Friday.

Dr Mindbender

9th January 2009, 21:50

I'm moving this thread to discrimination because there is no evidence in the articles that it was fascists or neo-nazis that carried these attacks out.

Moved.

scarletghoul

10th January 2009, 03:09

This is sad :(

And only one synagogue in Indonesia? wow.

Black Dagger

10th January 2009, 05:34

Just a few, we have seen lately.

Who is the 'we' in this sentence?

SocialRealist

10th January 2009, 05:57

Who is the 'we' in this sentence?

The we refers to the members of Rev Left as I am telling you of the incidents.

progressive_lefty

19th January 2009, 03:12

Anti-semitism or attacks on Jews can never ever be justified.
In saying this though, I am suspicious of these incidents at times, sometimes I get the feeling that the perpertrators of anti-semitic grafitti are not always the perpatrators, we think are the perpertrators.

bcbm

19th January 2009, 03:59

sometimes I get the feeling that the perpertrators of anti-semitic grafitti are not always the perpatrators, we think are the perpertrators.

Yeah, its ZOG! Crafty lot, these jews.:rolleyes:

Chicano Shamrock

21st January 2009, 05:54

The one in Australia seems fishy. It is not said if this person was picketing against the Palestine supporters. It is most likely that he was. If he provoked people you can't really blame people for attacking him.

All of the Jewish people I have talked with about the Israeli situation automatically support Israel and justify it by saying "Palestine was never a real state" as if that is some justification to fuck with people. It really pisses me off.

My question is what is the difference between the Spanish burning churches for supporting the Fascists and people currently burning synagogues for supporting Israel. Should jews be held to a higher standard than others? Is this inherently racist?

Not that I specifically support anything like that just throwing ideas out there and seeing what people think.

MarxSchmarx

21st January 2009, 08:04

Can we cool the "Israel brings it on itself" rhetoric? As if Israel = Jews.

Seriously, why bring up Israel at all? Anti-semitism, no matter what the pretense, is reprehensible. The focus on Israel is what the fash, and, sadly, other nationalists, use to try to justify an under-current of anti-Semitism.

These kinds of generalizations that attempt to link what the state of Israel is doing to "Jews" are unacceptable. There are millions of Jews the world over who abhor what the American backed Israeli military machine does.

Guatemalans weren't personally criticized for having an American backed junta. Why then do people tend to criticize Jews for the behavior of Israel?

The only possible explanation is anti-semitism. I'm not saying we should support Israel come hell or high water. Or that criticism of Israeli policy is inherently anti-semetic. Only that we should have a mature, leftist critique of certain military actions carried out by the Israeli state that we would apply to any other country.

Indeed, if people would substitute, say, "Israeli treatment of the Palestinians" for "Australian treatment of the aboriginal nations", we would quickly realize how much an undertone of anti-semitism exists in the current debate.

21st January 2009, 08:18

Can we cool the "Israel brings it on itself" rhetoric?

No.

As if Israel = Jews.

No one said that at all.

Seriously, why bring up Israel at all? Anti-semitism, no matter what the pretense, is reprehensible. The focus on Israel is what the fash, and, sadly, other nationalists, use to try to justify an under-current of anti-Semitism.

These kinds of generalizations that attempt to link what the state of Israel is doing to "Jews" are unacceptable. There are millions of Jews the world over who abhor what the American backed Israeli military machine does.

The only person in this thread that said anything remotely anti-semitic was progressive_lefty.

Guatemalans weren't personally criticized for having an American backed junta. Why then do people tend to criticize Jews for the behavior of Israel?

99% of people on this board, the other percentage being restricted, don't. And oppose that.

Indeed, if people would substitute, say, "Israeli treatment of the Palestinians" for "Australian treatment of the aboriginal nations", we would quickly realize how much an undertone of anti-semitism exists in the current debate.

If you're proposing we say "state of Israel" or "Zionists" then perhaps look at how Zionist their government is and realise that this isn't at all anti-semitic.

MarxSchmarx

23rd January 2009, 04:33

If you're proposing we say "state of Israel" or "Zionists" then perhaps look at how Zionist their government is and realise that this isn't at all anti-semitic.

The problem with focusing on Zionism as the modus operandi of the "state of Israel" is that policies of the state of Israel are not "Zionist".

Zionism is not about displacing Palestinians. It is about Jews returning to Palestine. To blame "Zionism" would be to ignore the long tradition of zionists who opposed the creation of an explicitly "Jewish state" in Palestine.

The "state of Israel" has a Zionist element. But if we are talking about "influence", it also has an element of American Imperialism, plutocratic Arab opportunists, etc... To focus the blame on "Zionism" is three beers removed from anti-Semitism.

synthesis

23rd January 2009, 06:47

Zionism is not about displacing Palestinians. It is about Jews returning to Palestine. To blame "Zionism" would be to ignore the long tradition of zionists who opposed the creation of an explicitly "Jewish state" in Palestine.

That's not what Zionists or historians think. This is certainly a digression from the original discussion, but here are a few quotes I think are relevant to what you said.

"The major cause of tension and violence throughout the period 1882-1914 was not accidents, misunderstandings or the attitudes and behaviors of either side, but objective historical conditions and the conflicting interests and goals of the two populations. The Arabs sought instinctively to retain the Arab and Muslim character of the region and to maintain their position as its rightful inhabitants; the Zionists sought radically to change the status quo, buy as much land as possible, settle on it, and eventually turn an Arab-populated country into a Jewish homeland.

For decades the Zionists tried to camouflage their real aspirations, for fear of angering the authorities and the Arabs. They were, however, certain of their aims and of the means needed to achieve them. Internal correspondence amongst the olim from the very beginning of the Zionist enterprise leaves little room for doubt."

-Benny Morris, Israeli historian

"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left."
Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department in 1940.

Arab expatriation serves the Israeli aim to "spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment...Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried away discreetly and circumspectly."
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

Of course, that doesn't make anti-Semitism acceptable. The danger is that "anti-Semitic" as a pejorative description will become as meaningless as "anti-American" if it continues to be associated with anti-Zionism - anti-colonialism - and opposition to Israeli government policy, instead of genuine acts of hatred like the ones listed in the OP.

bcbm

26th January 2009, 04:17

Reading over this thread again is disgusting.

And, while these anti-semitic abuses are terrible, they do not even begin to compare to the horrors that Israel has perpetrated, and continues to perpetrate today.

Funny how whenever anti-semitic incidents occur in times of heightened conflict between Israel and Palestine this little "but" has to be thrown in, to make sure everyone knows that even though anti-semitism is bad (no, really!) JEWS (sorry, "Israel," certainly no connotations for all Jews in relation to attacks on Jewish religious symbols and not Israeli governmental facilities) ARE DOING MUCH, MUCH WORSE THINGS (and so kind of deserve it)!!!! How fucking opportunistic and disgusting can you be?

My question is what is the difference between the Spanish burning churches for supporting the Fascists and people currently burning synagogues for supporting Israel. Should jews be held to a higher standard than others? Is this inherently racist?

The Spanish Catholic church played an important role in the maintenance of the feudal system in Spain and priests often were rats on leftists and others struggling for change. When they were killed it was often by locals who had seen their brutality. In contrast, not all Jews support Israel and not all synagogues support Israel, to say nothing of what images of burning synagogues brings to mind.

No.

So, anti-semitism is Israel's fault? What. the. fuck.

synthesis

26th January 2009, 10:20

Well, put it like this. And don't give up on me too quick.

On StormFront, every single attack on a white person by a non-white person is chalked up to some measure of a sustained assault on the white population rather than an act of an individual on an individual produced by circumstances.

Of course, there was never any Holocaust for "white people" - and few people need to be convinced that the racists' position is inherently ridiculous. But the clear implication is that the numerous and unfathomable historical crimes against humanity which powerful white people have committed in the past - colonialism, imperialism, slavery, and so on - are morally negated by individual acts of violence.

So it shouldn't be surprising that when the Israeli state is committing an unusually high number of crimes against humanity - such as ethnic cleansing in the context of an apartheid state - some people, especially those radically opposed to colonialism, are going to see reports on such anti-Semitic acts in a similar light as the Stormfronters' claims about "attacks on white people."

The people who committed these acts should receive the worst possible treatment we can give them, but we must also recognize that the acts themselves can and will be used as propaganda without regard for the welfare of the victims of such attacks - arguing that they give the Israeli state the right to protect itself from "anti-Semitism" by any means necessary.

It's all fucked up, really.

bcbm

26th January 2009, 11:53

Perhaps it should not be surprising but it a viewpoint I want no part in and will condemn at every opportunity, surprising or not.

Dean

26th January 2009, 12:47

The people who committed these acts should receive the worst possible treatment we can give them, but we must also recognize that the acts themselves can and will be used as propaganda without regard for the welfare of the victims of such attacks - arguing that they give the Israeli state the right to protect itself from "anti-Semitism" by any means necessary.

It's all fucked up, really.

That's a risk we'll have to take. If defending Jews from racist attacks means that the case for Israel gains some ground, so be it. We cannot judge one tragedy based on another, and it only serves to alienate and entrench right-wing, pro-Israel Jews when people say that defending them might help Israel.

We could also look at the issue this way. We know that Neonazis are mostly anti-semitic. What if we decided that criticism of Israel serves their racist agenda? Should we then also ignore the plight of the Palestinians just to maintain moral/racial consistency?

26th January 2009, 13:37

The problem with focusing on Zionism as the modus operandi of the "state of Israel" is that policies of the state of Israel are not "Zionist".

Zionism is not about displacing Palestinians. It is about Jews returning to Palestine. To blame "Zionism" would be to ignore the long tradition of zionists who opposed the creation of an explicitly "Jewish state" in Palestine.

The "state of Israel" has a Zionist element. But if we are talking about "influence", it also has an element of American Imperialism, plutocratic Arab opportunists, etc... To focus the blame on "Zionism" is three beers removed from anti-Semitism.

If you think people who refer to Zionism in this manner don't place any blame on, nor understand the UK and the US influence on Zionism then.. you are fully mistaken. Again, accusations launched based on air.

Wanted Man

26th January 2009, 14:32

Funny how whenever anti-semitic incidents occur in times of heightened conflict between Israel and Palestine this little "but" has to be thrown in, to make sure everyone knows that even though anti-semitism is bad (no, really!) JEWS (sorry, "Israel," certainly no connotations for all Jews in relation to attacks on Jewish religious symbols and not Israeli governmental facilities) ARE DOING MUCH, MUCH WORSE THINGS (and so kind of deserve it)!!!! How fucking opportunistic and disgusting can you be?
This is bullshit, and you know it. If I think that Jews deserve to be attacked, why am I not banned or restricted yet? Maybe you should start the poll, or apologise. Until then, there is no use for discussion, because you're trying to smear me as an anti-semite for some reason.

The fact is that Israel and its apologists are abusing the existence of anti-semitic nutters to justify the murder of thousands. "Sure, we killed 100 children today, but look at Europe: THEY ARE BURNING A SYNAGOGUE!!!" Obviously, anti-semitism is a danger and it should be fought wherever it pops up, no matter what Israel does. But it shouldn't be used to smear the Palestinians and their supporters. It's simply a fact that Israel inflicts infinitely more suffering on Palestine than some bonehead scumbags in Europe inflict on Jews. Even you said that it's about the images that it "brings to mind".

synthesis

27th January 2009, 06:32

We could also look at the issue this way. We know that Neonazis are mostly anti-semitic. What if we decided that criticism of Israel serves their racist agenda? Should we then also ignore the plight of the Palestinians just to maintain moral/racial consistency?Man, I don't give a shit about "consistency". Neo-Nazis have no political or military power whatsoever, and that doesn't show any signs of changing any time soon. In the meantime, we're talking about ethnic cleansing here. That shit in France was definitely fucked up, but every single article mentioned the tension created by the situation in Palestine as a potential factor in the attacks.

Counter-example: Would vandalizing a synagogue that was known for a radical pro-Israeli viewpoint be different from vandalizing a church that was known for promoting the murder of homosexuals?

That's not to say that these synagogues held such a viewpoint, and I'll stress that I'm not trying to justify vandalizing synagogues, or churches for that matter. They both seem pointless and counter-productive at best and truly hateful at worst. But I am curious as to why the OP only chose articles which mentioned the conflict in Gaza.

Chicano Shamrock

27th January 2009, 09:06

The Spanish Catholic church played an important role in the maintenance of the feudal system in Spain and priests often were rats on leftists and others struggling for change. When they were killed it was often by locals who had seen their brutality. In contrast, not all Jews support Israel and not all synagogues support Israel, to say nothing of what images of burning synagogues brings to mind.

I guess I didn't make it clear enough that I meant synagogues that are pro-Israel. I personally think it would send the wrong message to mainstream people here in the US and it is a bad tactic.

Dean

27th January 2009, 12:45

Man, I don't give a shit about "consistency". Neo-Nazis have no political or military power whatsoever, and that doesn't show any signs of changing any time soon. In the meantime, we're talking about ethnic cleansing here. That shit in France was definitely fucked up, but every single article mentioned the tension created by the situation in Palestine as a potential factor in the attacks.

So what? The news is meant to inform you, not promote or define a political agenda. They asserted - rightly, I might add - that the attacks could have been inflamed by the situation in Gaza. As communists, we should not blindly defend by 'context' any attack that happens to be a response to actions of a political enemy.

Counter-example: Would vandalizing a synagogue that was known for a radical pro-Israeli viewpoint be different from vandalizing a church that was known for promoting the murder of homosexuals?
No, it wouldn't, and outside of what you mention below I wouldn't oppose it. A local church promotes christian warfare, support for Israel, anti-homosexuality, and anti-Arabism. I would be happy to see it damaged, though I wouldn't say that is an accepted tactic.

That's not to say that these synagogues held such a viewpoint, and I'll stress that I'm not trying to justify vandalizing synagogues, or churches for that matter. They both seem pointless and counter-productive at best and truly hateful at worst. But I am curious as to why the OP only chose articles which mentioned the conflict in Gaza.
If such a context doesn't clearly exist in the incident, that is it is explicitly an attack on Jewish people or Judaism for that identity, then we should unconditionally oppose it and bring these ugly attacks into the light for what they are. I'm absolutely shocked that this is even in question.

synthesis

28th January 2009, 08:42

The news is meant to inform you, not promote or define a political agenda.

At least one of those sources (JTA) is pretty obviously pro-Israel. They've received a lot of money from self-proclaimed Zionist organizations, if you look at their "Funding" page. To have an "agenda" is one thing, and I find that unlikely; to have bias is another thing entirely.

Again, if a Jewish person is attacked for being Jewish, then that is reprehensible, and the perpetrators should face the same consequences as those who kill Palestinians simply because they are Palestinian.

I can't help but note, however, that one of the articles specifically mentions that the attack in question was provoked by a pro-Israeli person at a pro-Palestinian rally during the conflict. That's like going to a Black Panthers rally in the 1970's and spouting off about White Pride. What would you expect to happen?

Edelweiss

28th January 2009, 10:31

And, while these anti-semitic abuses are terrible, they do not even begin to compare to the horrors that Israel has perpetrated, and continues to perpetrate today. Vandalism of synagogues is horrifying because of its symbolic value more than anything.

bcbm thankfully said everything what has to be said on disgusting statements like this. At least there are some sensitive persons left here.

Blaming the Jews themselves for anti-semitism is classic anti-semitism in itself. It's like blaming the Jews for the holocaust.

It's very sad who widespread this kind of anti-semitism is in this forums, and how common this subtle and latent anti-semitic undertones are within the international, "anti-zionist", "anti-imperialist" radical Left, and how this criticism is quickly brushed away as "Zionist propaganda".

People like wanted man are so dangerous to the left because they are providing tons of ammo to the right-wingers and Zionist hardliners who blame the Left of anti-semitism. Sadly, they are a living proof.

Really, looking at threads like this is so frustrating, and makes me wanna shut down Revleft as a whole...

Devrim

28th January 2009, 11:18

Malte is right in that it is disgusting when people make excuses for anti-Semitism.

Of course, anti-Semitic incidents are occurring. Here are some from our country:

Many recent incidents are gravely distressing to us. Protestors besieging the Israeli Consulate in Istanbul have expressed their hatred of Jews. Billboards around Istanbul are full of anti-Jewish propaganda posters. The door of a Jewish-owned shop near Istanbul University was covered with a poster that said, “Do not buy from here, since this shop is owned by a Jew.” The defacing of an Izmir synagogue has brought about the temporary closure of all but one of that city’s synagogues.

The fact that the Israeli state is murdering people in Gaza does not in anyway excuse this sort of behaviour.

To me these sort of activities raise the threat of pogrom and should be condemned by all who call themselves socialists.

Devrim

28th January 2009, 11:58

Malte is right in that it is disgusting when people make excuses for anti-Semitism.

Yes.

The fact that the Israeli state is murdering people in Gaza does not in anyway excuse this sort of behaviour.

It doesn't excuse it.

To me these sort of activities raise the threat of pogrom and should be condemned by all who call themselves socialists.

That's going too far but that does not detract from you saying it should be condemned - but not just by Socialists, by everyone.

Devrim

28th January 2009, 15:02

To me these sort of activities raise the threat of pogrom and should be condemned by all who call themselves socialists. That's going too far but that does not detract from you saying it should be condemned - but not just by Socialists, by everyone.

It may seem like that too you, but then again I live in a country when the last major pogrom is within living memory (1978) and members of minority religions are still brutally murdered today.

I think that these sort of activities in İstanbul do raise the threat of pogrom.

Devrim

Sasha

28th January 2009, 15:41

Wanted Man

28th January 2009, 16:20

bcbm thankfully said everything what has to be said on disgusting statements like this. At least there are some sensitive persons left here.

Blaming the Jews themselves for anti-semitism is classic anti-semitism in itself. It's like blaming the Jews for the holocaust.

It's very sad who widespread this kind of anti-semitism is in this forums, and how common this subtle and latent anti-semitic undertones are within the international, "anti-zionist", "anti-imperialist" radical Left, and how this criticism is quickly brushed away as "Zionist propaganda".

People like wanted man are so dangerous to the left because they are providing tons of ammo to the right-wingers and Zionist hardliners who blame the Left of anti-semitism. Sadly, they are a living proof.

Really, looking at threads like this is so frustrating, and makes me wanna shut down Revleft as a whole...
More bullshit. If you want me to say "the Jews are to blame for anti-semitism", you can wait as long as you like, but you have more of a chance to see pigs fly. It's not what I said, it's not my opinion, and you know it. You are lying about my opinion with the intention of smearing not only me, but anyone who dares to speak out against Israel.

The people who are dangerous to the left are those who support the lie that Israel represents the Jews, a lie that is spread by not only nazis and Islamists, but also by the supporters of Israel themselves. Israel is "the jewish state", and anyone who does not unconditionally support Israel is undermining the security of all Jews and paving the way for a new holocaust.

People on the left who are impressed by these arguments are dangerous to the left, because they inevitably lead to capitulation to imperialism. Apparently, the same can be said of your good self, because you care more about what "right-wingers and Zionist hardliners" think, so we should avoid "giving them ammo". The fact is that they will use any old dud as "ammo", because Israel, in their sick ideology, represents the Jews. As long as the left does not give up its principles and supports "Israel's right to defend itself", we will always be smeared as anti-semites, just as we are being smeared as anti-Americans.

So fuck off. If you want to call me "dangerous" or "shut down Revleft as a whole", that's up to you. Draw your own conclusions, but don't lie about other people. Maybe you want to call psycho an "anti-semite" or "self-hating jew"? After all, good European imperialists have always known what's best for the jews, right? Like certain nutters who call IDF defectors "traitors to their fatherland". The arrogance is astounding.

Edelweiss

28th January 2009, 18:06

whoohoo, so if i say that; the israeli goverment has part/an intrest in the continuation of equaling israel critique with anti-semitism and so is partly responsible for (without a question undifendeble and horible) atacks on synagoges by stupid people who follow the same idiot reasoning, i'm an anti-semite again?

That's not what I said. I acknowledge your argument, but still I think your argumentation is quiet problematic. It basically whitewashes, justifies and excuses today's anti-semites, since you say it's Israel itself who is causing anti-semitism and anti-semitic attacks. It's like saying that Simbawe/Mugabe is partly responsible for a hate crime/racism somewhere in the US, because some white nationalist takes Mugabes politics against white settlers in his country as an excuse for their racism.

Another Jewish member of this forum always said "anti-semitism is coming from anti-semites", period. I think it's a very simple dogma which leftists should follow, otherwise we are going on a very very slippery rope here...

29th January 2009, 10:31

It may seem like that too you, but then again I live in a country when the last major pogrom is within living memory (1978) and members of minority religions are still brutally murdered today.

I think that these sort of activities in İstanbul do raise the threat of pogrom.

Devrim

In my neighbourhood it isn't uncommon for the massive Kurdish, Turkish and Greek minorities to stab each other to death in massive groups, I've even come close myself to being targeted for my supposed ethnicity by a 300-or-strong group of Turkish kids/young adults, the divisive problems over your way are very well known in the world and a terrible terrible thing.

However, it doesn't seem like those problems you describe in Istanbul will quite bubble over into pogrom, I'm not saying it's an absolute impossibility, but it shouldn't quite go that far from what I can see.

bcbm

29th January 2009, 11:50

This is bullshit, and you know it. If I think that Jews deserve to be attacked, why am I not banned or restricted yet? Maybe you should start the poll, or apologise. Until then, there is no use for discussion, because you're trying to smear me as an anti-semite for some reason.

You may not think they deserve it, but your statement certainly excuses it and I want no part in that. I don't want to apologize or start a poll (how utterly boring and bureaucratic), I'm just calling shit where I see it.

The fact is that Israel and its apologists are abusing the existence of anti-semitic nutters to justify the murder of thousands. "Sure, we killed 100 children today, but look at Europe: THEY ARE BURNING A SYNAGOGUE!!!"

Ah, and so whenevr a synagogue or a Jew is attacked or worse, we should say "Well this is horrible, but also Israel is murdering people by the thousands?" You're basically suggesting that your statement makes sense because Israel uses the same twisted, fucked-up logic.

Obviously, anti-semitism is a danger and it should be fought wherever it pops up, no matter what Israel does.

By pointing out Israeli atrocities whenever it pops up. That'll help.

But it shouldn't be used to smear the Palestinians and their supporters.

Was anybody here doing that? I must've missed it. And yet...

It's simply a fact that Israel inflicts infinitely more suffering on Palestine than some bonehead scumbags in Europe inflict on Jews.

And since all Jews = Israel... wow.

Wanted Man

30th January 2009, 23:39

You may not think they deserve it, but your statement certainly excuses it and I want no part in that. I don't want to apologize or start a poll (how utterly boring and bureaucratic), I'm just calling shit where I see it.
No it doesn't. There are no excuses made anywhere. Anyway, if I'm an anti-semite, I should be banned. If you just want to "call shit", don't lie.

How about this: BCBM excuses the IDF's campaign of mass murder, because he thinks that it isn't any worse than anti-semitic incidents in Europe. Utter lies? Hey, don't mind me. Just calling shit where I see it. That's just how I roll.

Ah, and so whenevr a synagogue or a Jew is attacked or worse, we should say "Well this is horrible, but also Israel is murdering people by the thousands?" You're basically suggesting that your statement makes sense because Israel uses the same twisted, fucked-up logic.

By pointing out Israeli atrocities whenever it pops up. That'll help.Umm, no. It's a comment I made. I didn't say that everyone has to make it every time. Do try to keep up.

Was anybody here doing that? I must've missed it. And yet...No, but my comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. People on RevLeft are smarter than that. But supporters on Israel obviously do use any anti-semitic action by nazi idiots to smear the pro-Palestinian left.

And since all Jews = Israel... wow.That's the line I've been arguing against in this whole thread. Can you read?

bcbm

30th January 2009, 23:51

No it doesn't. There are no excuses made anywhere.

Pointing out that Israel does worse thing when anti-semitic incidents occur when there is no reason to sure sounds like an excuse to me.

Anyway, if I'm an anti-semite, I should be banned. If you just want to "call shit", don't lie.

Who called you an anti-semite? I didn't because I don't think you are. I'm just pointing out a problem I see in what you said.

How about this: BCBM excuses the IDF's campaign of mass murder, because he thinks that it isn't any worse than anti-semitic incidents in Europe. Utter lies? Hey, don't mind me. Just calling shit where I see it.

If I went to a thread about the invasion of Gaza and said "Yes the bombings in Gaza are terrible, but we must also remember that Jews in Europe are being attacked and their places of worship being destroyed," when there was no reason to mention it, yes, that would be a fair thing to say.

Umm, no. It's a comment I made. I didn't say that everyone has to make it every time. Do try to keep up.

You're suggesting it is a response that needs to occur because Israel uses these incidents to smear Palestinians, despite nobody here doing anything remotely like that and thus there being no real reason to point out that Israel is worse. You said it yourself, "we're smarter than that," so why mention it?

No, but my comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. People on RevLeft are smarter than that. But supporters on Israel obviously do use any anti-semitic action by nazi idiots to smear the pro-Palestinian left.

Sure and so your response would make sense in a thread about that but I don't see why it was brought up here.

That's the line I've been arguing against in this whole thread. Can you read?

Then why compare incidents occurring against European Jews to what Israel is doing thousands of miles away?

Sasha

31st January 2009, 16:47

sigh.... let me recap.
if there is an obvious link in the (rise of) anti-semite incidents and the militairy actions in the occupied terretories by the israeli apartheid state than it should be not strange to point that out.
i think all of you would agree that if you want to deal with an problem, it is nescarcery to know its orgins.
So if you want to stop "anti-semite" vandalism of jewish property it should be logical to analyse who's doing the vandalism.
because its a huge difrence if its for example true anti-semitism by a organised group of neo-nazi's or misplaced anti-israelism by idiot migrant kids.
i think its fair to conlude that in the cases mentioned in the OP the latter is probely true.
Wich raises consequently the question, how do we stop/fight these attacks.
to wich i would suggest by stopping equaling in the publics mind israel to all jews.
but one of the main hurdles in this is the israeli state it self because they have an intrest in the contiuation of this idea.

so no, i never said that jews have to thank themselfs for this anti-semitism (that would be indeed idiot and borderline anti-semite) i said jews have israel to thank for this anti-semitism, wich is sommething completly difrent and i.m.o. completly fair and reasonble to say/point out.