Riot cop shot in Athens.

[The Feral Underclass]

Greek riot policeman has been seriously injured by two men with Kalashnikov automatic weapons in central Athens, officials say.

The officer was part of a unit guarding the culture ministry when the pre-dawn attack took place.


The policeman was taken to hospital and was undergoing surgery.



BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7810972.stm)


Can't find anything on Indymedia.

[S.O.I]

well you cant really be a fascist guarding any ministry during a peoples revolution not expecting to get a little shot at

but im glad he not too seriously injured, and that he's gonna make it.

[вор в законе]

The attack was carried out by the organization Revolutionary Organization. It is the same organization that launched a rocket towards the US embassy of Athens 2 years ago. Things are very tense and dangerous. I don't know what's happening and who really did this. 2 weeks ago a riot-police bus was also hit by a AK-74.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7811792.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Struggle

[Mister X]

Marx and Lenin always fought against the idea of individual terrorism:this is to sat, the idea that it was possible to overthrow the state by assasinating individuals. The state does not rest on individuals, but on classes.

If you assassinate one reactionary official, policeman or politician, he will merely be replaced by another even more reactionary official, policeman or politician. Worse still, the state will make use of such incidents to step up its repression and unite the population against the revolutionaries.

[skki]

Marx and Lenin always fought against the idea of individual terrorism:this is to sat, the idea that it was possible to overthrow the state by assasinating individuals. The state does not rest on individuals, but on classes.

If you assassinate one reactionary official, policeman or politician, he will merely be replaced by another even more reactionary official, policeman or politician. Worse still, the state will make use of such incidents to step up its repression and unite the population against the revolutionaries.
As much as I love it when cops get shot, this might just be right on the money. On the other hand, the Greek government is obviously in a very precarious position, so I don't think we'll see it step up it's repression. They are a few steps away from revolution as it is.

The Greek government is fully in damage control mode. They are in no position to take action. The media is not prepared to take a stand against the anarchists, seeing as the general public seems to be sympathizing with the anarchists. This may actually do the cause more good than bad. The protests were a little tame.

[Omi]

Well, it HAS led to more repression, as the whole neighbourhood of exarchia is blocked now, they are arresting people at random, searching houses of known anarchists, etc etc. The situation seems to be very tense, this combined with the frustration of the massive repression on a huge Gaza-Solidarity demonstration, this timebomb is about to blow.:ohmy:

[Mister X]

On the other hand, the Greek government is obviously in a very precarious position, so I don't think we'll see it step up it's repression. They are a few steps away from revolution as it is.

I don't think that Greece is in a revolutionary situation. In public opinion polls PASOK gets 35% of the vote while ND 30%. With 65% of the population supporting either the right wing , or the center I don't think that we can talk about revolution just now. The fact is that the revolutionary left has increased in popularity with the CP and SYRIZA getting 20% combined but this is far from having the majority of the people behind them.
The anarchists still remain insignificant with not more than 10 000 activists/ sympathizers in their ranks.

Note:These numbers were given in a talk by a Greek Marxist who lives in my area. (He also gave us some sources for these statistics ).


The Greek government is fully in damage control mode. They are in no position to take action.

Nevertheless they were able to use extensive police brutality during the recent events.



The media is not prepared to take a stand against the anarchists, seeing as the general public seems to be sympathizing with the anarchists.

Wrong again. In the same talk, I heard that the vast majority of the media, are using the recent destruction caused by the anarchists in order to make the anarchists (and the participants of the "uprising") as hooligans , terrorists and in part responsible for the economic crisis! A lot of people are buying it and again this shows how individual terrorism is such an idiotic act.


This may actually do the cause more good than bad.

I strongly disagree with this. This will make the conservative sections of the working class along with the petit bourgeoisie which are a majority to turn against the left and stand behind the government in any further anti-"terrorist" activity.

To be sure the government will label as terorrists a big portion of the revolutionary left.

[Prisoner#69]

I heard the little 21 year old pig got blasted in the groin! Nice shot! We can only help it blew it away so he can't breed any piglets. I'm all for oppressive cops getting shot -- and this punk was a cop in an oppressive regime and earned every AK slug flying his way:drool:

Maybe after a few more pigs are slain Athens will realize a thing or two:closedeyes:

[Omi]

I don't think that Greece is in a revolutionary situation. In public opinion polls PASOK gets 35% of the vote while ND 30%. With 65% of the population supporting either the right wing , or the center I don't think that we can talk about revolution just now. The fact is that the revolutionary left has increased in popularity with the CP and SYRIZA getting 20% combined but this is far from having the majority of the people behind them.
The anarchists still remain insignificant with not more than 10 000 activists/ sympathizers in their ranks.

Note:These numbers were given in a talk by a Greek Marxist who lives in my area. (He also gave us some sources for these statistics ).


Nevertheless they were able to use extensive police brutality during the recent events.



Wrong again. In the same talk, I heard that the vast majority of the media, are using the recent destruction caused by the anarchists in order to make the anarchists (and the participants of the "uprising") as hooligans , terrorists and in part responsible for the economic crisis! A lot of people are buying it and again this shows how individual terrorism is such an idiotic act.



I strongly disagree with this. This will make the conservative sections of the working class along with the petit bourgeoisie which are a majority to turn against the left and stand behind the government in any further anti-"terrorist" activity.

To be sure the government will label as terorrists a big portion of the revolutionary left.


10.000 Is an idiotic number, there were mass actions going on all around the country at the same time in diffrent city's, all with participants running around the tens of thousands. Workers keep occupying union buildings, and why do you think the parlimentairy building is the best guarded building in the whole of greece right now? That's not because they do not see this insurrection. The time is right for a revolution, the government just needs the final topple. The number of people is far greater than during the Oktober Revolution for fuck's sake!

[Mister X]

10.000 Is an idiotic number, there were mass actions going on all around the country at the same time in diffrent city's, all with participants running around the tens of thousands. Workers keep occupying union buildings, and why do you think the parlimentairy building is the best guarded building in the whole of greece right now? That's not because they do not see this insurrection. The time is right for a revolution, the government just needs the final topple.

Those participating in the riots were not all anarchists. Prove to me that the number of anarchists in not around 10 000 but a lot more.
Is there any Greek person on this forum that can disprove the fact? Fuserg9 is from Cyprus he should know something about it at least.

The situation is not revolutionary just because there were mass protests. When you see that the majority of Greeks support the ND or PASOK , you cannot talk about a time for revolution!



The number of people is far greater than during the Oktober Revolution for fuck's sake!

So you are suggesting that a number bigger than the Greek population participated in the riots?:lol:

[Faceless]

Marx and Lenin always fought against the idea of individual terrorism:this is to sat, the idea that it was possible to overthrow the state by assasinating individuals. The state does not rest on individuals, but on classes.

If you assassinate one reactionary official, policeman or politician, he will merely be replaced by another even more reactionary official, policeman or politician. Worse still, the state will make use of such incidents to step up its repression and unite the population against the revolutionaries.
I strongly agree with these sentiments Mr. X.

On your other post, although you're right that PASOK has gained much more than the other left wing parties I think even this says something about the massive shift in consciousness: a lot of people think that even if they have more sympathy for say SYRIZA or the CP, support for PASOK is easiest way to get rid of the current govt.

Good posts though.

[F9]

Mister X is right, i have numerous times said that the riots werent Anarchists one's, yeah Anarchists probably were the majority, but not vast!People from different ideological spaces were at the riots, even people not so deep in politicals, they expressed there anger for the death of the kid, and the sick economical situation there is in greece!And besides greece isnt and a huge country(11 mil as the wiki says)!

As for the shooting thing, i too think that it can gives us nothing than bad reputation, so i am not seeking to see any simillar actions in the future.The state takes advantage of it and turns Anarchists etc now from "hooligans" to "murderers"!The weapons should be used when its time for a revolution, now they dont serve our causes!

Fuserg9:star:

[Mister X]

Mister X is right, i have numerous times said that the riots werent Anarchists one's, yeah Anarchists probably were the majority, but not vast!People from different ideological spaces were at the riots, even people not so deep in politicals, they expressed there anger for the death of the kid, and the sick economical situation there is in greece!And besides greece isnt and a huge country(11 mil as the wiki says)!

As for the shooting thing, i too think that it can gives us nothing than bad reputation, so i am not seeking to see any simillar actions in the future.The state takes advantage of it and turns Anarchists etc now from "hooligans" to "murderers"!The weapons should be used when its time for a revolution, now they dont serve our causes!

Fuserg9http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/Star.gif

Thanks for this. This is the beauty of having an international forum. Because people can give first hand accounts about what is happening. I would give you another rep but I can't since I gave you one before:lol:



On your other post, although you're right that PASOK has gained much more than the other left wing parties I think even this says something about the massive shift in consciousness: a lot of people think that even if they have more sympathy for say SYRIZA or the CP, support for PASOK is easiest way to get rid of the current govt.


Oh certainly there is a shift in consciousness I never claimed the opposite.
But it is not big enough that would support claims for a revolutionary situation in Greece. I am sorry probably because I am arguing against the idea of revlutionary situation , it seemed like I am saying that there was no change in consiousness. It would be idiotic and anti-materialist to claim so.

[Annie K.]

Mister x, could you remind me why you want the greek revolutionnaries to get the sympathy of conservative sections of the population ?

[Mister X]

Mister x, could you remind me why you want the greek revolutionnaries to get the sympathy of conservative sections of the population ?

Because the conservative sections of the population(by the way conservative is not rednecks, but non-revolutionary people with petit-bourgeois mentality ) comprise the 70-80% of the population.
A revolution is not a coup d' etat of a small number of proffesional revolutionaries, but a genuine uprising of the majority of the population.
We don't want the bourgeois state to have the majority of the population supporting it when it cracks down on so-called "terrorists".

[Annie K.]

That's surely not by accepting to conform to their petit bourgeois mentality and to hide the contradiction between our goals and the capitalist democratic state that we will stop them from supporting it, let alone gaining their support for our revolution.

[Mister X]

That's surely not by accepting to conform to their petit bourgeois mentality and to hide the contradiction between our goals and the capitalist democratic state that we will stop them from supporting it, let alone gaining their support for our revolution.

I don't get you. As revolutionaries we should employ the methods that will be the most effective in our struggle and to raise the consciousness of the working class.
Acts like killing a cop although it is not immoral it is stupid. It does not help the proletariat to raise its consciousness it rather makes it more susceptible to bourgeois and fascist propaganda.
Also read my signature it talks about it pretty clear.

If you cannot understand this you are either a police provocateur or simply an idiot.

[DangerousMexican]

I agree with X on that shooting a cop in the groin doesn't help us a lot.

On a related note, last year the tightest and most heart-attacking elections were held here in Mexico. As usual, the obscure right wing puppeteered the whole thing and got Nixon on power. There were riots, there were marches, there were even deaths. But it seems as if The People stopped caring after a few months. Eventually, AMLO faded out and the flags of Truth were brought down.
What I want to say here is that if We don't seize the momentum The People might be fooled out of their freedom once again. Maybe they're not the most loved leaders ever, but Marxdammit! If there's anything I can do from down here, I ain't letting another revolution stop before it ever happens!

Victory For The Revolution! Death To The Greek State!

(EDIT: also, Mr. X's signature is possibly one of the best and most awesome ones I've seen around the net)

[freakazoid]

Well, it HAS led to more repression, as the whole neighbourhood of exarchia is blocked now, they are arresting people at random, searching houses of known anarchists, etc etc. The situation seems to be very tense, this combined with the frustration of the massive repression on a huge Gaza-Solidarity demonstration, this timebomb is about to blow.

What led to the riots, cops getting along with the people or a cop killing a kid? More repression only helps us. We just have to take advantage of this that has fallen into our laps. We have to show the people that they can fight back against the state.


The anarchists still remain insignificant with not more than 10 000 activists/ sympathizers in their ranks.

10,000! That is a LOT. Here in the US I think you would be hard pressed to find that many leftists in one area, and I mean leftists in total not just leftists of one like ideology. And for that many to be anarchist, we should be taking full advantage of having such a large number.


Wrong again. In the same talk, I heard that the vast majority of the media, are using the recent destruction caused by the anarchists in order to make the anarchists (and the participants of the "uprising") as hooligans , terrorists and in part responsible for the economic crisis! A lot of people are buying it and again this shows how individual terrorism is such an idiotic act.

No matter what we do we will be labeled as terrorists, even if all we are doing is sitting around holding hands singing Kum Ba Yah. That is what we are going to face simply by being leftist, especially anarchists.


I strongly disagree with this. This will make the conservative sections of the working class along with the petit bourgeoisie which are a majority to turn against the left and stand behind the government in any further anti-"terrorist" activity.

Only if we sit around and do nothing. We need to be pumping our propaganda out there like crazy countering any bad publicity, showing that there is another way, and that the state can be fought against.

[Annie K.]

As revolutionaries we should employ the methods that will be the most effective in our struggle and to raise the consciousness of the working class.
Acts like killing a cop although it is not immoral it is stupid. It does not help the proletariat to raise its consciousness it rather makes it more susceptible to bourgeois and fascist propaganda.I don't think so. The killing of a cop don't change the state of consciousness of anyone except the cop. The proportion of the population that actually thinks that killing a cop is immoral don't change, and neither does the control of the dominant class over it. The support of the population for the state will stay the same, be it for the quiet violence of the economic and social system it ensures if we fight it, or for the exceptionnal violence of the police if it's the police we fight, or for both if we make a revolution.
So the only thing that there is to fear is that the physical opposition with the state will be too destructive for our side. But in the greek context, this opposition can be handled relatively easily. The situation is still far from a civil war or a fascist coup.

The sense of your signature is clear, but the parallel you makes with it is not. The obvious necessity of using methods that doesn't harm our struggle doesn't imply that we should gain the support of all the population no matter its level of consciousness.

[F9]

10,000! That is a LOT. Here in the US I think you would be hard pressed to find that many leftists in one area, and I mean leftists in total not just leftists of one like ideology. And for that many to be anarchist, we should be taking full advantage of having such a large number.


Unfortunately, being one of the biggest or even the biggest number of leftists in a certain area, dont mean they are big or a LOT too!Unfortunately those numbers are too low, having 10000 between millions, is not something as leftists we call big numbers!We need the majority of the people on our side!

Fuserg9:star:

[OneNamedNameLess]

To me this is bad news.

I liked the way things seemed to be going a few weeks ago in Greece. Not only Anarchists, but a whole range of people were involved. The people reacted as one and united. This is AIMLESS violence. How will shooting a police officer benefit their cause?

I would just like to say that any potential revolution in Greece would fail. As others have stated, the revolutionaries are outnumbered. To add to this, who will lead this brewing revolution? There appears to be a large anarchist presence in Greece especially in Athens. I now know that there are well-armed revolutionaries who I suspect are Marxist. If the revolution is not crushed by the state, what will happen if it succeeds? Then it would fail. The groups who are most active, the anarchists and the revolutionary whatevers as they are armed and shooting cops, differ greatly ideologically. To add to this, we know now that there is a significantly high Conservative support in the country. Even if they supported or participated in such a revolution would they agree with the proposals of the far-left when power was seized? I dont think so. If a single, well organised and efficient vanguard was present or emerged I would be more enthusiastic about the prospect of a revolution.

All i'm saying is dont get your hopes up ;)

[Patchd]

Wait hang on, do we know the full situation, what was this pre-emptive strike for a later one about? Who were the people participating in this later strike? And did they attack the building because it was a government building?

[DangerousMexican]

Well, green, it could happen if someone intervened...

[Mister X]

No matter what we do we will be labeled as terrorists, even if all we are doing is sitting around holding hands singing Kum Ba Yah. That is what we are going to face simply by being leftist, especially anarchists.

No that is not correct. Only anarchists are labelled as "terrorists" in Greece , not communists who have different methods of struggle(mass action).


Only if we sit around and do nothing. We need to be pumping our propaganda out there like crazy countering any bad publicity, showing that there is another way, and that the state can be fought against.

Don't just say it. Go out and do it.
When we create the bad publicity against us we are idiots by the way. And this act is bad publicity.



I don't think so. The killing of a cop don't change the state of consciousness of anyone except the cop. The proportion of the population that actually thinks that killing a cop is immoral don't change, and neither does the control of the dominant class over it. The support of the population for the state will stay the same, be it for the quiet violence of the economic and social system it ensures if we fight it, or for the exceptionnal violence of the police if it's the police we fight, or for both if we make a revolution.
So the only thing that there is to fear is that the physical opposition with the state will be too destructive for our side. But in the greek context, this opposition can be handled relatively easily. The situation is still far from a civil war or a fascist coup.

The sense of your signature is clear, but the parallel you makes with it is not. The obvious necessity of using methods that doesn't harm our struggle doesn't imply that we should gain the support of all the population no matter its level of consciousness.

Your logic is so flawed so there is no point to argue with you.
You obviously don't understand that by killing a cop, the majority of society views it as immoral and will stand behind the right wing government when it starts repressing the Greek workers movement.

My point is clear. Kill a cop when you have the majority of the population supporting you. So I stand by my previous conclusion. You are either a police provocateur or an idiot.

[F9]

No that is not correct. Only anarchists are labelled as "terrorists" in Greece , not communists who have different methods of struggle(mass action).

Basically the biggest terrorist movement that ever acted in greece(but has destroyed by the state before some years) was a Marxist-Leninist one, the known 17November (17N)!Anarchists havent got the "terrorists" label so far, they are just labeled as "hooligan kids".

Fuserg9:star:

[optimist]

the situation in greece is this,we are not near a revolution.the holidays celebration helps the government, because the vast majority of the greek people left the events after the killing behind and they followed the christmas spirit.the students had 2week off and they went home,the occupations in municipal buildings in athens some ended and the others try to stay alive,but with lesser people involved.some hundreds of people who are on the streets for a month now,trying to be everywhere,demonstrating for alexis,for gaza,for konstantina kuneva,for the arrested demonstrators,outside prisons in new years eve,trying to keep alive the occupations, its natural to feel tired and with less stamina.everyone looks forward the 9th of january when students demonstrations will take place,because the numbers and the passion of the participants will be a sign for the future.about the cop injury,everyone ,meaning media,politicians,tries to balance this with alexis murder.they reffer to the cop as diamantis,his little name,a poor 20y.o. countryboy a good student,a member of 700euro generation, who comes in athens to support his family and some "misguided"terrorists shoot him in his first patrol.that works so far for the public opinion. for this incident there is an ongoing debate between the anarchists,and others ofcourse,on if it was a good-timing provocation to slow things down,a bad-timing attack or a good deed of urban guerillas.

[OneNamedNameLess]

Thanks a lot for that optimist!

I didn't know we had any active Greek members on here.

Keep us posted if you can :)

[Mister X]

Basically the biggest terrorist movement that ever acted in greece(but has destroyed by the state before some years) was a Marxist-Leninist one, the known 17November (17N)!Anarchists havent got the "terrorists" label so far, they are just labeled as "hooligan kids".

Fuserg9http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/Star.gif

Oh yes I forgot about them. But they were not Marxist-Leninists since both Marx and Lenin were strongly against individual terrorism. They were self-described communists who acted on a period of slowdown for the revolutionary movement.

But presently only the anarchists are described as "hooligans" and domestic terrorists by the right wing and some media.

[Djehuti]

This is very similar to the "strategy of tension (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension)" in Italy or COINTELPRO in the United States. This is clearly manufactured by the state in order to drasticly increase repression.

[Djehuti]

“Was the riot cop shooting orchestrated by the state?”

Rough translation of a posting on Athens indymedia, the day after a riot cop was shot (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2009/01/05/37-0513-riot-cop-shot-in-eksarhia-athens-tens-of-arrests-in-the-area/) in Eksarhia, Athens. The text below is important as it seems to reflect a sentiment shared with the majority of the people in the anarchist, and the wider antagonist social movement in the country: The greek state seems to be pulling out some of its oldest and dirtiest tricks in order to go, once again, on the offensive. Luckily, our movement does have one of the most valuable assets - collective memory. In the US they called it COINTELPRO, in Italy it was the strategy of tension, over here it is lonely gunmen shooting from (but really: shooting at) the very spaces we are trying to defend. We don’t forget, we don’t forgive, we won’t be intimidated…
–
On the dawn of 5/1/08, at around 3 a.m, a riot police unit was shot at while guarding the ministry of culture in the Eksarhia district of Athens. They speak of more than 20 bullet shells and a hand grenade. The cop injured, they say, was saved only thanks to his mobile phone, which slowed down the bullet that hit him in the chest.
Our initial thought is that any individual that is part of our movement, no matter how enraged or in support of urban guerilla tactics they might be, would not chose the area of Eksarhia (literally under police occupation for the past few days) in order to launch an attack of this kind and manage to escape safely.
Therefore, we cannot consider coincidental the fact that mass media, politicians and their lackeys have been building up an atmosphere where some dynamic revenge action against the cops was imminent. We cannot rule out, of course, the possibility that such incidents could happen - but we are not foolish enough to believe that they would take place in Eksarhia, or in the case of the earlier incident (-the shooting against the police van a few days earlier - trans.) in the university campus of Zografou.
The state, via its mouthpiece media was preparing public opinion for some ‘imminent’ action against the police. The choice of the place of the attack (the ministry of culture in Eksarhia) somehow spoiled their recipe: An attack in such a heavily surveilled urban area clearly points at attackers that can only be directly linked to the state itself.
It goes without saying that these people would have no hesitation whatsoever to shoot one of their own - there’s no need for a second thought on that: Life means nothing to them.
Their action shows that they are trying to neutralise the climate for the shooting, in cold blood, of Alexis Grigoropoulos, and to create once again some sympathy for the police - who at the moment are spat at on the streets by pretty much everyone for anything they do. They are trying to create, at the same time, an atmosphere of violence and terrorism for all the rest who resist in any possible way.
The choice of Eksarhia, an area that no armed revolutionary group would ever chose under the given circumstances, builds all the necessary associations in the mind of the society; it frees the hands of cops and judges for violence and convictions against the social whole… this always in the face of the pending unemployment and financial crises.
Already there have been 75 detentions, many police attacks against residents and passers-by in Eksarhia, while there is also information on house raids - how handy for them.
There are strange days coming; the government has lost control a while ago and is now launching a full-scale violence, some violence in which it has a near-monopoly.
A disproportionate violence that faces stones and molotovs and responds with tons of chemical gases, bullets (plastic and regular), attacks of the wild revolted against fully equipped state units with military training.
The pre-planned right turn of the government (not that it wasn’t right-wing already, but having seen its conservative core moving to the far-right, it further hardens its rhetoric and repression tactics) can only be confronted with mass and unitary demonstrations and events against state terror. With answers and clashes on the streets; with mass barricades. With a political word that will talk of the people and their needs; of how they are masters of themselves, how they need to move away from the authoritarian leadership of political parties which ignore the pressing demand for liberation from the confines of the state, of homelands and capitalism.
Without rushed-up actions yet with our gaze in the immediate future, we need to produce ideas and proposals through our public assemblies so that the self-organisation of the people from below can become visible, viable and possible -precisely in the ways many of us witnessed during the days of the December revolt.
There is no other way - else, they’ll take us down, one after the other.
As they’ve proved one more time, they are ruthless.




http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2009/01/05/was-the-riot-cop-shooting-orchestrated-by-the-state/

[freakazoid]

Unfortunately, being one of the biggest or even the biggest number of leftists in a certain area, dont mean they are big or a LOT too!Unfortunately those numbers are too low, having 10000 between millions, is not something as leftists we call big numbers!We need the majority of the people on our side!

Sure, we have a lot of work to do. But those numbers are very good. While there might be millions of people who are not, how many of those millions of people are actually strong supporters of the other side, instead of simply not really carring or holding a loose afiliation with one of the parties? I think the fact that many of the protestors where not anarchist, and possibly not even leftist, shows us that there are many people who are not just disatisfied with how things are but to actually take part of the protests shows that they strongly oppose the current system, and it is our job to show them how things could be.


. To add to this, who will lead this brewing revolution?

We don't need some glorious leader to lead us.


To add to this, we know now that there is a significantly high Conservative support in the country. Even if they supported or participated in such a revolution would they agree with the proposals of the far-left when power was seized?

By showing them working examples of how it will be better.


No that is not correct. Only anarchists are labelled as "terrorists" in Greece , not communists who have different methods of struggle(mass action).

The media can't tell the difference between anarchist and Marxist. And since when do anarchist not view mass action as a good thing? Oh, and walking around waving banners not being a threat to the actual order of things does not bring about a revolution.



When we create the bad publicity against us we are idiots by the way. And this act is bad publicity.

All forms of protest are bad publicity. But we can not simply not take action. And after a cop shooting a kid, sparking a riot, I can't really see how many people would be simpothetic to the cops being shot at. Of course I'm not from there so I can't say what the general attitude amongst the people are. That and as Annie K. had said this "bad" publicity isn't going to change peoples minds about us. They will still either think we are nothing but a bunch of terrorists or they will still support us.

[Mister X]

The media can't tell the difference between anarchist and Marxist. And since when do anarchist not view mass action as a good thing? Oh, and walking around waving banners not being a threat to the actual order of things does not bring about a revolution.

You are clearly not familiar with the situation in Greece. Fuserg9 can again confirm to you that the communists and anarchists are not confused in Greece. My wife is of Greek descent so are many of my friends and in light of the recent events I learned a lot about what is happening there.

Also you are being idealist here. Communists act according to material conditions. What do you want them to do? Force the workers who are mostly family men that support the CP to throw bricks and rocks at the cops , endangering themselves and their families? It is revolutionary to strike , only a fool would think otherwise. A fool that does not know anything about struggling against capitalism. Don't be that fool please.


All forms of protest are bad publicity.

Not really.



But we can not simply not take action. And after a cop shooting a kid, sparking a riot, I can't really see how many people would be simpothetic to the cops being shot at. Of course I'm not from there so I can't say what the general attitude amongst the people are. That and as Annie K. had said this "bad" publicity isn't going to change peoples minds about us. They will still either think we are nothing but a bunch of terrorists or they will still support us.

Not if some self-proclaimed revolutionaries shoot a cop. That will create a bad image as I said before. You either accept the fact or go back living in your dreamland.

[freakazoid]

You are clearly not familiar with the situation in Greece. Fuserg9 can again confirm to you that the communists and anarchists are not confused in Greece.

I didn't say that the communists and anarchists can't tell each other apart. I said that the media can't tell the different groups apart.


Also you are being idealist here. Communists act according to material conditions. What do you want them to do? Force the workers who are mostly family men that support the CP to throw bricks and rocks at the cops , endangering themselves and their families?

Propagate and agitate the hell out of the situation.


Not really.

I don't ever remember hearing about anything good about the protests in Greece, or any of the ones here in the US.


Not if some self-proclaimed revolutionaries shoot a cop. That will create a bad image as I said before.

And again as I have explained, it frankly doesn't matter.

[optimist]

in greece communists,kke syriza and smaller parties,are about 20% of the voters,so noone mix them with the anarchists.after alexis killing the majority of the people were with the demonstrators even when they destroy banks or attacking police stations,after all their kids were amongst them.the "peacefull"citizens ,after a media brainwash,disagreed only with shop burning and looting.the president of pireas merchants union was proud of the citys youth because they"naturally" destroyed 12 police cars and attack the police headquarters,but they didnt break any shops.this was good publicity of the demonstrations among the greeks.even traffic policemen were cursed on the streets by old people.but todays media was shown the citizens,grandfathers etc, of injured cop village saying what good kid he was and he was young and innocent.the same people who cursed them for alexis murder will easily sympathized them after the propaganda that will come.

[Annie K.]

Your logic is so flawed so there is no point to argue with you.
You obviously don't understand that by killing a cop, the majority of society views it as immoral and will stand behind the right wing government when it starts repressing the Greek workers movement.You didn't bother to argue from the start.
Yes, the majority of society view it as immoral. And this conservative majority, as expected from any conservative group, support the state no matter what it does. It supported it when it started to repress the movement. And if the government change its repressive tactics after this shooting, it will do it on its own, not on the base of a democratic consultation.

And you overrate our importance. The police would not bother provocate anyone here. I'm not a cop, but i'll let you judge for yourself if i'm an idiot, since your judgements don't matter.

[OneNamedNameLess]

We don't need some glorious leader to lead us.

Successful revolutions have been led not only by the people but by a movement. What I was saying is, if you read the appropriate part of my post, that an organised vanguard if revolution did come about would enhance the chances of it succeeding. Otherwise, if a whole range of people seized power, they would not be able to agree on which direction to go afterwards.

By showing them working examples of how it will be better.


Do you really think conservative supporters will agree with, for instance, anarchist proposals? I mentioned the UK's working class the other day in another post and what I said was that people, even if they are discontented with the situation, look to another bourgeois party as the answer to their troubles. I dont imagine conservatives in Greece will be any different. Saying "look, our ideas are the answer and I can prove it", will not make a difference. Could you be converted by rightist examples of how things can be better?

[OneNamedNameLess]

Fuck. That was meant to be a quote from freakazoid. :blushing:

I tried deleting stuff and the quote never worked. Sorry.

[JohnnyC]

We don't need some glorious leader to lead us.

So far in every leftist revolution there were those who were more intelligent, charismatic and dedicated to the cause than others.In Russia there was Lenin, in anarchist Catalonia Durruti, in Ukraine Nestor Makhno, in Germany Luxemburg and Liebknecht...
I'm not saying that we need leaders after revolution succeeds, but historically in almost every revolution so far there were those who were more class aware than others.Of course, maybe in the next revolution we will not have that kind of people to "lead" us, but I'm just saying that it will not damage our cause to have such persons on our side. ;)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_Makhno)

[F9]

So far in every leftist revolution there were those who were more intelligent, charismatic and dedicated to the cause than others.In Russia there was Lenin, in anarchist Catalonia Durruti, in Ukraine Nestor Makhno, in Germany Luxemburg and Liebknecht...
I'm not saying that we need leaders after revolution succeeds, but historically in almost every revolution so far there were those who were more class aware than others.Of course, maybe in the next revolution we will not have that kind of people to "lead" us, but I'm just saying that it will not damage our cause to have such persons on our side. ;)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_Makhno)

And the results of having those "leaders"?Nothing
So its time to change that tactic!

Fuserg9:star:

[JohnnyC]

And the results of having those "leaders"?Nothing
So its time to change that tactic!

Fuserg9:star:
Lenin definitely did something because Russian revolution succeeded, as we know.But, as I said, I don't think we need "leaders" even though I wouldn't mind having that kind of comrade with us.

[freakazoid]

While someone who can inspire the people is definitely a good thing. But how does the saying go, If they can be lead to freedom they can be lead out.

[freakazoid]

While someone who can inspire the people is definitely a good thing. But how does the saying go, If they can be lead to freedom they can be lead out.

[Enragé]

3 words: Strategy of Tension

what idiot on the left would shoot a riot cop and then retreat to a neighborhood pretty much occupied by riot cops?

This was, most likely, an attack orchestrated by the state (or groups within the state, or possibly fascists), to give the state an excuse to crack down on people in Exarchia, and sway public opinion against the movement.

If this isnt the case, the fuck who did this should get his head kicked in (in fact, in any case, he should get his head kicked in).