An internationalist voice in Israel

[Leo]

An attempt to present an internationalist perspective on the current situation in the West Bank, following Israel's attack on the Gaza Strip.

http://libcom.org/news/whats-flag-03012009

http://libcom.org/files/imagecache/article/Israel_Palestine_Flag%5B1%5D.png

Most people in Israel will remember one thing about the protest later today (Sat 3/1/2009): that the organizers went to the Supreme Court in order to make sure they are allowed to present a Palestinian flag.

Now, I am in favor of anyone being able to present any kind of flag or no flag at any time. But one should ask what purpose a Palestinian (former PLO) flag would serve.

This protest is allegedly aimed at stopping the attack on Gaza. What does the Palestinian flag have to do with that? One would reply: "well, it represents support for the Palestinian resistance." To that I would have to further ask: what Palestinian resistance? Most sensible Palestinians in Gaza would like to get the hell out of the bombing area, not resist being bombed. What does it even mean to resist being bombed? Wave your hand against the incoming fighters?

This flag represents Palestinian nationalism, in the same way that the Israeli flag represents Israeli nationalism. Now, most readers of this website would probably associate Israeli nationalism with violence, oppression, and a thin veil covering up the rule of capitalists over our country. Why doesn't the same apply to Palestinian nationalism?

As we speak, Palestinians in the West Bank are being brutally oppressed and restrained, Palestinians who wish to protest against this same war. Why? Because the Palestinian Authority will not hear criticism, and will not step away from its only raison d'etre, being a subcontractor of Israeli control over the Occupied Territories.

Just months ago, these same Hamas leaders who are now hiding in bunkers and safehouses and recording messages of resistance to "their" people were refusing pay to teachers, wrecking Palestinian trade unions, killing innocent Palestinians in the streets as they fought their Fatah competitors, and shooting rockets at random civilian targets, in lieu of actual attempts at bettering the lives of hard-working and unemployed Palestinians.
While we are protesting the brutal bombing of Gaza by Israeli nationalism, we have to remember that Palestinian nationalism is merely less powerful, not less brutal. Unfortunately, this flag incident just plays into the hand of nationalism as an ideal, making it easier to dismiss dissent against the government as automatic support for "the enemy".

Of course, to be cynical, there is a very good reason why this fiasco came about. This protest, organized by the Israeli Communist Party's front Hadash, comes a day before the official launching of this party's election campaign. And Hadash needs to pander to its Palestinian nationalist base inside the Green Line in order to maintain its electoral power in the next elections against the Secular Nationalists (Al-Tajmua3) and the Muslim Movement. And this, again, plays into nationalism's hand, and ultimately, into the capitalists` hand.

This will only result in repeating cycles of violence, that will not end until it is realized that these nationalisms are there to cloud our judgment and to prevent us from focusing on the real issue, namely, that we are being sent to kill and die, and compete in the service of people who do not serve our interests, but their own. And that goes for both Israelis and Palestinians. Untie the Gordian knot of nationalism, and we will be on our way to have better lives for all.

[il Commie]

1. This article is very petty. The accusations directed at Hadash seems very unffair to me.

2. Raising the palestinian flag is not "nationalism". It is a sign of solidarity with an occupied nation.

3. Many flags were raised in the Tel Aviv demonstration yesterday:
Some of the demonstrators raised the palestinian flag, as a sign of solidarity with the people of Gaza.
Some of the demonstrators raised the israeli flag, as a symbol of their belief that being an israeli patriot is supporting peace.
Many of the demonstrators (including myself) raised the red flag, as a symbol of peace and internationalist solidarity.
I think that's beautiful. It shows that there's pluralism inside the left.

4. There was a big dilemma among the organizers of the demonstration.
The police didn't want to approve the demonstration,
unless the organizers would sign a document saying the palestinian flag wouldn't be raised.
They knew it would look bad in the israeli media,
but they still went to the Supreme Court,
because they couldn't approve suce a drastic and evil damage to freedom of speech.
If they would sign this document,
tommorow the police would demand we won't raise the red flag.
Does that make Hadash "nationalist"?
Not at all.
It just makes us supporters of democracy and freedom.

5. Hadash doesn't represent "arab nationalism" at all.
I'm a jew, and more than that - I'm a communist and an internationalist.
I'm very proud to take part in Hadash (and in the Israeli Communist Party),
the only significant political movement in Israel which brings jews and arabs together, and fights for peace, social justice and the enviroment.

6. Yes, there is an elections campaign going on in Israel at the moment.
No, Hadash doesn't need to pretend it's "nationalist" in order to fight Tajamoua for arab voters.
All we have to do in order to win arab votes,
is to show them that our jewish-arab partnership is the best way to fight racism of all sorts.
Actually, that's exactly what we did in the municipal elections in Haifa,
and it gave us a big success.

[Bilan]

It's not really the best piece on the Internationalist position on the conflict, but the core ideas are spot on.

[PRC-UTE]

It says if you get rid of nationalism the violence will end.


This will only result in repeating cycles of violence, that will not end until it is realized that these nationalisms are there to cloud our judgment and to prevent us from focusing on the real issue, namely, that we are being sent to kill and die, and compete in the service of people who do not serve our interests, but their own. And that goes for both Israelis and Palestinians. Untie the Gordian knot of nationalism, and we will be on our way to have better lives for all.

Doesn't seem the writer understands how the world works- ideas are a product of material conditions, not the other way around. End imperialism and Palestinian nationalism, which was basically a reaction to an occupation, will diminish.



Because the Palestinian Authority will not hear criticism, and will not step away from its only raison d'etre, being a subcontractor of Israeli control over the Occupied Territories.

this bit is pretty accurate



Just months ago, these same Hamas leaders who are now hiding in bunkers and safehouses and recording messages of resistance to "their" people were refusing pay to teachers, wrecking Palestinian trade unions, killing innocent Palestinians in the streets as they fought their Fatah competitors, and shooting rockets at random civilian targets, in lieu of actual attempts at bettering the lives of hard-working and unemployed Palestinians.


if I remember correctly, the flow of nearly all funds to Palestine was cut off to punish the people there for voting Hamas. So I think saying "refusing" to pay teachers isn't quite accurate.


While we are protesting the brutal bombing of Gaza by Israeli nationalism, we have to remember that Palestinian nationalism is merely less powerful, not less brutal.

this is counter factual.

[Internationalist from IL]

1. This article is very petty. The accusations directed at Hadash seems very unffair to me.

Had I been aware of the background and the police spin, I might have not been as snarky. Unfortunately, I was only informed of the actual situation in person after I have written and published the piece, and an hour before the demo. I would have expected Hadash to have released an explanation to the broad public, at the very least using the relevant Facebook event venue.


2. Raising the palestinian flag is not "nationalism". It is a sign of solidarity with an occupied nation.

Solidarity with a nation is nationalism. It doesn't matter if it's occupied or not.


3. Many flags were raised in the Tel Aviv demonstration yesterday:
Some of the demonstrators raised the palestinian flag, as a sign of solidarity with the people of Gaza.

.. thus foolishly ignoring a very pertinent fact: this flag was originally the PLO flag, which is the same organization that is now stifling dissent against the war inside the West Bank.


Some of the demonstrators raised the israeli flag, as a symbol of their belief that being an israeli patriot is supporting peace.

Do you believe that being an Israeli patriot is supporting peace? Is that a position that your party adhers to?


Many of the demonstrators (including myself) raised the red flag, as a symbol of peace and internationalist solidarity.
I think that's beautiful. It shows that there's pluralism inside the left.

I think it's ridiculous, and shows the complete incoherence of the Israeli left towards the national question, which undermines its ability to affect lasting change in the region.


4. There was a big dilemma among the organizers of the demonstration.
The police didn't want to approve the demonstration,
unless the organizers would sign a document saying the palestinian flag wouldn't be raised.
They knew it would look bad in the israeli media,
but they still went to the Supreme Court,
because they couldn't approve suce a drastic and evil damage to freedom of speech.
If they would sign this document,
tommorow the police would demand we won't raise the red flag.
Does that make Hadash "nationalist"?
Not at all.
It just makes us supporters of democracy and freedom.

Like I said, had I known the facts at the time I would probably have written my piece differently. Unfortunately, Hadash did not make any attempt at publishing these facts at all. And the result was as I had expected: most media publicized these Palestinian flags well beyond their actual appearance, making the whole episode into an expression of nationalist struggle, thus presumably defeating the purpose of the excersize.


5. Hadash doesn't represent "arab nationalism" at all.

I did not say "represent." I said "pander." Would you be willing to state that you are opposed to all nationalisms, including the Palestinian one? Of course not. You think it would alienate Israeli Palestinians, and you know your biggest source of votes is there.


I'm a jew, and more than that - I'm a communist and an internationalist.
I'm very proud to take part in Hadash (and in the Israeli Communist Party),
the only significant political movement in Israel which brings jews and arabs together, and fights for peace, social justice and the enviroment.

Well, a few years ago I argued with your then General Secretary, Issam Makhoul, which was presenting two diametrically opposite positions: that Palestinians in Israel should oppose the establishment of a Palestinian autonomy inside of the Green Line, and that Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza should not give up on the Two-State solution. He was not amenable to argument, instead starting on a diatribe of how he is an Israeli citizen etc. etc. Supporting a Two-State solution is the opposite of bringing Jews and Arabs together, but because you are tied down to it for some reason, you are merely promoting a pie in the sky that the Israeli government is using in order to distract Palestinians from the fact that their policy has made it utterly impossible in practice. Most non-48 Palestinians are not fooled.


6. Yes, there is an elections campaign going on in Israel at the moment.
No, Hadash doesn't need to pretend it's "nationalist" in order to fight Tajamoua for arab voters.
All we have to do in order to win arab votes,
is to show them that our jewish-arab partnership is the best way to fight racism of all sorts.
Actually, that's exactly what we did in the municipal elections in Haifa,
and it gave us a big success.

Good luck with that. The freshest political analyst will tell you that, at least as far as Israel goes, municipal success is no guarantee in the national sphere, and vice versa. Although, if you are willing to put your politics where your mouth is, you might want to start by rejecting nationalism openly, and a good start would be a position against raising Palestinian flags in demos.

To reiterate, what I predicted in my article came to pass: this "freedom of speech" issue just fueled the automatic connection made between opposition to the war and support for the "enemy". The fire is rising. And your position, which in many ways is representative of the entire Israeli left, is dubious on the national question and ultimately conforms to it and perpetuates it. The two-state solution depends on nationalism, which is anathema to working-class unity and, ultimately, revolution.

[Internationalist from IL]

It says if you get rid of nationalism the violence will end.

No. The violence will not end unless nationalism is sidelined. It is the counter-factual.



Doesn't seem the writer understands how the world works- ideas are a product of material conditions, not the other way around. End imperialism and Palestinian nationalism, which was basically a reaction to an occupation, will diminish.

How's that working out in Algeria? Or Zimbabwe? Or any other former occupied nation? Has their nationalism diminished? Or is it simply used again and again to pit working-class people against each other?



if I remember correctly, the flow of nearly all funds to Palestine was cut off to punish the people there for voting Hamas. So I think saying "refusing" to pay teachers isn't quite accurate.


The teachers seemed to think it was accurate enough to stage a strike. The Hamas government responded by tearing down the Trade Union center. They did have enough funds to keep arming themselves, especially once the Iranians got involved.


this (that Palestinian nationalism is just as brutal as the Israeli one) is counter factual.
Oh, is it? Are we forgetting the PLO's actions before it became a sub-contractor for the Israeli occupation? Are we ignoring the PLO's actions currently as a de-facto representative of Palestinian nationalism? Or Hamas's, for that matter? Suicide bombings, torture, rocket fire, takeovers of civilian planes, repression of dissent, those thing are not brutal? Sure, Israel can top all of them off in terms of sheer bodycount, but it is better funded and organized, after all, plus it has consistent backing by what is currently the most powerful imperialist player in the world stage. It's just a matter of scale.

[progressive_lefty]

I guess I would want to have a Palestinian flag just beacause it is illegal, and I understand the persecution they suffer, but not because I support radical nationalism.

[Internationalist from IL]

I guess I would want to have a Palestinian flag just beacause it is illegal, and I understand the persecution they suffer, but not because I support radical nationalism.
First of all, it's not in general illegal to present this flag, though the police keeps trying to get people to remove it in protests. As for understanding the persecution they suffer, why would you want to raise a flag that represents a portion of that suffering?

[revolution inaction]

This is a good statement, its important to remember to side with the working class not with whichever nation is weaker.

[Revy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT3AJ_n89no

this is the protest in Tel Aviv. I see many red flags.

[Leo]

Point being?

[Bilan]

Red flags is the point, damnit!

[Leo]

Well it was already stated that there were some red flags in the demos, I think what was being discussed now is the Palestinian flags and also apparently the Israeli flags waved.

[Ramachandra]

There wre "some"red flags?
I feel that the red flags "lead"the protest

[JohnnyC]

I agree with Leo on this.Palestinian nationalism is just as bad as Israelian, and we shouldn't support it just because they are being oppressed.Nationalism is what got us in this situation in the first place, and we need to get rid of it if we want peace, imo.

[BobKKKindle$]

Nationalism is what got us in this situation in the first place

This is an anti-materialist view of the situation. Marxists acknowledge that ideas are always the product of material conditions, although one they have come into existence, ideas influence the way people behave and can even result in changes in our conditions. The crimes committed against the Palestinian people by the Israeli state have occurred because Israel is supported militarily and financially by the most powerful military giant in the entire world and exists in order to safeguard the interests of the imperialist bloc in the Middle East, an area of profound strategic importance during the imperialist epoch. Zionism is a nationalist ideology which has been used to justify these crimes, and bind the Israeli working class to the state. The Palestinian people are guided by their own form of nationalism which seeks to establish an independent Palestinian state. Palestinian nationalism is also reactionary in the same way as Zionism insofar as it has the potential to obscure the fundamental importance of class antagonisms in the interests of the aspirant Palestinian bourgeoisie. However, in a situation of national oppression, the nationalism of the oppressed population can have a progressive role, as a motivating force behind anti-imperialist struggles, which undermine the ideological legitimacy of the oppressor nation, and, given that imperialism is a stage in the development of capitalism and a means by which the bourgeoisie attempts to avoid periodic crises of profitability, strike at the heart of the capitalist system.

[JohnnyC]

This is an anti-materialist view of the situation. Marxists acknowledge that ideas are always the product of material conditions, although one they have come into existence, ideas influence the way people behave and can even resulting in changes in our conditions. The crimes committed against the Palestinian people by the Israeli state have occurred because Israel is supported militarily and financially by the most powerful military giant in the entire world and exists in order to safeguard the interests of the imperialist bloc in the Middle East, an area of profound strategic importance during the imperialist epoch. Zionism is a nationalist ideology which has been used to justify these crimes, and bind the Israeli working class to the state. The Palestinian people are guided by their own form of nationalism which seeks to establish an independent Palestinian state. Palestinian nationalism is also reactionary in the same way as Zionism insofar as it has the potential to obscure the fundamental importance of class antagonisms in the interests of the aspirant Palestinian bourgeoisie. However, in a situation of national oppression, the nationalism of the oppressed population can have a progressive role, as a motivating force behind anti-imperialist struggles, which undermine the ideological legitimacy of the oppressor nation, and, given that imperialism is a stage in the development of capitalism and a means by which the bourgeoisie attempts to avoid periodic crises of profitability, strike at the heart of the capitalist system.
I agree with you that both nationalism's are just a reaction to a material conditions, and that Palestinian nationalism is playing the more progressive role, but I still think that is not the best solution.Also, I don't think that support for Palestinian nationalism is going to help them become more class aware, it's just going to make the whole conflict between them harder to get rid of.