Israeli troops 'move into Gaza'

[Jenska]

Newsflash from BBC news

Israeli ground troops have begun to enter the Gaza Strip, Israeli military officials say.
Palestinian witnesses said a small column of vehicles had crossed the border near the town of Beit Lahiya.
Earlier, Israeli artillery and tanks massed near the border bombarded the territory for the first time since the campaign against Hamas began last week. In one raid, at least 13 people were killed when a missile hit a crowded mosque in Beit Lahiya, medics said.

[Guerrilla22]

Unfortunately, we all knew this was coming sooner or later. :closedeyes:

[Hessian Peel]

Hopefully the Palestinian resistance claims the life of many a Zionist invader. There was a live feed from Gaza via telephone at a rally I was at earlier today outside government buildings in Dublin. Sounds like hell on Earth there. The Israeli embassy in every country should be burnt to the ground. Free Palestine.

[Kassad]

Swine. Every last one of them.

[Mister X]

I hope that this will an end to the rule of Hamas over the Palestinian people but it's unlikely this is going to happen. Probably Hamas will come out strengthened just like Sadam became a "martyr" after his death.

Also I hope that the reactionary Israeli state gets what it got when it invaded Lebanon. A strong response by the people of not just Lebanon but the whole world.

It is time that both the Israeli ruling class and Hamas get overthrown. They have proved in many occasions that they are reactionary and bankrupt.

Long live a Socialist Federation of Israel-Palestine!

[Hessian Peel]

I hope that this will an end to the rule of Hamas over the Palestinian people but it's unlikely this is going to happen. Probably Hamas will come out strengthened just like Sadam became a "martyr" after his death.

Also I hope that the reactionary Israeli state gets what it got when it invaded Lebanon. A strong response by the people of not just Lebanon but the whole world.

It is time that both the Israeli ruling class and Hamas get overthrown. They have proved in many occasions that they are reactionary and bankrupt.

Long live a Socialist Federation of Israel-Palestine!

The words socialist and Israel shouldn't be in the same sentence.

Death to Zionism!

Long Live a Socialist Palestine!

[Jesus Christ!]

The words socialist and Israel shouldn't be in the same sentence.

Death to Zionism!

Long Live a Socialist Palestine!

So all in israel are as equally guilty of what their military and government does, as those who actually perpetrate it? After your comment in the Obama topic I'm beginning to realize that you are most likely making outlandish statements like "every Israeli embassy should be burned to the ground" for attention.

[Hessian Peel]

So all in israel are as equally guilty of what their military and government does, as those who actually perpetrate it?

When did I say that? I am simply opposed to the occupation of Palestine.



After your comment in the Obama topic I'm beginning to realize that you are most likely making outlandish statements like "every Israeli embassy should be burned to the ground" for attention.http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2270/saddamhussein3wl9.jpg

[Mister X]

The words socialist and Israel shouldn't be in the same sentence.

Death to Zionism!

Long Live a Socialist Palestine!

What the fuck are you talking about?
I am of Jewish descent (a Jew as you would call me)but it happens to live in Canada. If I lived in Israel would you tell me that I couldn't fight for socialism because I am a "Zionist Jew"? Are you a fucking nazi?

Do you think that the proletarian of Israel is not oppressed as much as the proletariat of your country? Just because a lot of people are deceived (with the help of the methods of Hamas of course) to believe that the invasion is alright , there can never be a time where there is socialism in Israel?
Or do you think that we should kill the Jewish proletariat , or even send them to Madagaskar like the nazis are saying?

You don't say that the US and socialism are incompatible right? Even though the US government is equally if not more reactionary that Israel.

I think that the Israeli and Palestinian proletariats should unite under class lines and overthrow the Israeli state and the reactionary Hamas .

[Hessian Peel]

What the fuck are you talking about?
I am of Jewish descent (a Jew as you would call me)but it happens to live in Canada. If I lived in Israel would you tell me that I couldn't fight for socialism because I am a "Zionist Jew"? Are you a fucking nazi?

Do you think that the proletarian of Israel is not oppressed as much as the proletariat of your country? Just because a lot of people are deceived (with the help of the methods of Hamas of course) to believe that the invasion is alright , there can never be a time where there is socialism in Israel?
Or do you think that we should kill the Jewish proletariat , or even send them to Madagaskar like the nazis are saying?

You don't say that the US and socialism are incompatible right? Even though the US government is equally if not more reactionary that Israel.

I think that the Israeli and Palestinian proletariats should unite under class lines and overthrow the Israeli state and the reactionary Hamas .

I agree.

[Mister X]

I agree.Good! Because that was a pretty fucked up comment .
EDIT: If you want read this http://www.revleft.com/vb/futility-terrorism-and-t98360/index.html

[Hessian Peel]

Good! Because that was a pretty fucked up comment .

No it wasn't, you obviously just didn't read what I said properly or misunderstood it.

[Mister X]

You said that "The words socialist and Israel shouldn't be in the same sentence."

So I shouldn't agree with this statement" for a Socialist Federation of Israel - Palestine?"Then afterwards you said that you agree with my statement that said that there is a need of unity and a socialist Israel and Palestine.
So which one is it?

[Revy]

It seems petty to take issue with the name "Socialist Federation of Israel-Palestine" because it contains the name "Israel". It's a name that respects a neutrality of peoples, as a state for both Jews and Arabs. Because of Zionism and the rise of Israel, the use of "Palestinian" referring to Jews in Palestine has dropped from use.

[Hessian Peel]

You said that "The words socialist and Israel shouldn't be in the same sentence."

So I shouldn't agree with this statement" for a Socialist Federation of Israel - Palestine?"Then afterwards you said that you agree with my statement that said that there is a need of unity and a socialist Israel and Palestine.
So which one is it?

There is a need for a socialist Palestine; the Israeli state should be destroyed. That has nothing to do with the working and poor people living in 'Israel', Jew and Arab alike, provided they support the Palestinian cause of course. Calling for unity between 'Israel' and Palestine on a socialist basis is a bit like saying 'Northern Ireland' and the 'Republic of Ireland' should have some sort of socialist confederacy. They shouldn't. Both states should be overthrown.

[Mister X]

There is a need for a socialist Palestine; the Israeli state should be destroyed. That has nothing to do with the working and poor people living in 'Israel', Jew and Arab alike, provided they support the Palestinian cause of course. Calling for unity between 'Israel' and Palestine on a socialist basis is a bit like saying 'Northern Ireland' and the 'Republic of Ireland' should have some sort of socialist confederacy. They shouldn't. Both states should be overthrown.

Why is the Republic of Ireland less of a bourgeois state than Northern Ireland.
When I say a Socialist Federation of Israel-Palestine. This does not mean Israel as a bourgeois and imperialist State.


there is a need for a socialist Palestine; the Israeli state should be destroyed.

Why shouldn't the Hamas semi-state be destroyed? Isn't it reactionary according to our socialist principles?
You are saying one thing for one state and one ting for another. You are eclectic and eclecticism is incompatible with Marxism or any revolutionary ideology.

What I am saying is clear. Overthrow Israel and Hamas. Also I am calling for working class unity under class lines and workers solidarity. I don't care if the federation is called " Socialist Federation of Bananaland " . The name I gave is of course an arbitrary name which is like that in order to emphasize working class unity. You on the other hand use an arbitrary name which has connotation of working class divide, nationalism instead of internationalism and if we go further , negative connotations against the Jewish proletariat. We both want the same thing(hopefuly ) but the way you are phrasing your slogans is ridiculus (that's a mild description).

Now go to the Israeli workers who will play an equal role with Palestinians in the struggle against Zionism and tell them your slogan. They will be hostile against you even though we have the same ideas (almost).

But this is an indication of how being absent from the struggle makes people use ridiculus slogans and make up ridiculus ideas on their minds and then debate them on a theoretical level over the internet.

Before you tell me anything else I would like to tell you that I have campaigned in my Jewish Community about the war issue(and my community is pretty Zionist), but my ideas seem do be somewhat effective and certainly less badly received than if I used the word Socialist Palestine, oust the Jews etc. Which is both theoreticaly flawed and unproductive for agitation.

[DangerousMexican]

I think I agree with Mister X, while I certainly dissaprove of the incursion and my blood boild with hate when I see the images of the tanks moving in over Gaza, we certainly cannot win this through blunt violence. It didn't work this past century so why would it work now?

Hessian, I've given this much thought and it seems that humanity has only 2 ways out of this:

Iran nukes Zion. Which would lead to a U.S.-sponsored holocaust of the Arab people and drag the region further into the middle ages.
An anti-occupation group of jews grows loud and powerful enough to pull its people out of there.
And it's kind of conforting to know that at least someone agrees.

[Wanted Man]

You on the other hand use an arbitrary name which has connotation of working class divide, nationalism instead of internationalism and if we go further , negative connotations against the Jewish proletariat.
What? The name "(Socialist) Palestine" is arbitrary, divisive, nationalist and anti-Jewish? Are you kidding? (see, this is what happens when people read posts badly: they completely misunderstand the poster's intention. Still, I'm not at all sure what this is supposed to mean).

In fact, a socialist Palestine is a very clear thing to argue for. The "federation" idea is slightly less realistic. Do you know what a federation is? Explain to me what "Federation of Israel-Palestine" is supposed to mean, and I'll get back to you on that one... Oh, wait, it's just an arbitrary name, but at least it sounds "nicer" to zionists and their apologists, instead of a mean, divisive name like "Palestine"... :rolleyes:

In the meantime, as far as any socialist is concerned, it just smacks of the two-state "solution". It's actually not a solution in the slightest, because the state of Israel, even if it is made smaller (how much?) will still be a zionist settler project that is part of the global imperialist apparatus. Because of that, any equality between Israel and Palestine in a "two-state" or "federal" context is only a pipe dream.

Instead, there should be one unified Palestine, with equal rights for all who live there. That's right, Hessian Peel did not say anything like "oust the Jews", that's a figment of your imagination. In fact, speaking of anti-semitism... It's evidently wrong and reactionary. Anti-semitic demagogues will continue spreading it for their own interests, just like the Israeli upper class will spread "fortress mentality" or plain racism against Arabs. It's in their class interests, dude! The first step towards removing this would be to abolish the zionist state in its entirety.

re: your earlier posts: you and the IMT make the mistake of putting Israel and Hamas on the same level. You seem to think: "Hopefully this invasion will overthrow Hamas" (and maybe Israel will get a bit of a licking too...), as if that would change anything. Hamas is not the settler power that is invading anyone. However, they are not "good guys" either; their struggle is the last thing they've got, with far less power at their disposal. There is nothing beautiful about it. This invasion is a massacre, and anyone who relishes it for some perceived socialist-strategic advantage of "overthrowing Hamas" or "hurting Israel a bit" should get some fresh air. Why do you think Hamas were elected in the first place?

[Mister X]

At Wanted Man:

Comrade, I think that a Socialist Federation of Israel-Palestine is a realistic solution as both working classes need eachother for the overthrow of their respective governments which are reactionary although you are right, not equally reactionary. Nevertheless I am also advocating a one state solution but I use the word Israel which could be easily changed as Socialist Federation of Jewish and Arab people or whatever you please, in order to emphasize this unity of both working classes in the struggle for overthrowing capitalism and building a one state socialist society.

These are the fundamentals of our disagreement. Working class unity. And if this is not emphasized enough to both sides there are dangers of horrible crimes commited out of revenge to the Jewish people if the Palestinians ever overthrow Israel by themselves or if Hamas ever(which is unlikely) manages to defeat Israel.

As Marxists we understand that Israel is more reactionary than Hamas due to the current material conditions. If Hamas in its present state had the upper hand it would commit horrible crimes against even working class Jews.

That is why I dont support Hamas,but I am not stupid enough to put Hamas on the same level as Israel. As a Marxist though I cannot be eclectic and I criticize both.



You seem to think: "Hopefully this invasion will overthrow Hamas" (and maybe Israel will get a bit of a licking too...), as if that would change anything. Hamas is not the settler power that is invading anyone. However, they are not "good guys" either; their struggle is the last thing they've got, with far less power at their disposal. There is nothing beautiful about it. This invasion is a massacre, and anyone who relishes it for some perceived socialist-strategic advantage of "overthrowing Hamas" or "hurting Israel a bit" should get some fresh air. Why do you think Hamas were elected in the first place?

You seem to have misunderstood my post or I poorly phrased it. I meant that I hope both the reactionary Israeli government and Hamas should be destroyed .
And let's face it Hamas as I said it before would not be any better than Israel in different material conditions. So we cannot support it unconditionaly just because its not "as evil".

[Cumannach]

Is it not true that Israel broke the ceasefire with Hamas is this instance?

Is it not true that Hamas are willing to accept a two state solution with conditions? Surely life under a reactionary Hamas wil be better for the Palestinian people than life under the boot of an Israeli soldier?

If so, socialists can support Hamas insofar as they deliver freedom from the Israeli Military, while still opposing them on a domestic political level, while using what freedoms they have to agitate, educate and organize and grow strong links with socialists in Israel.

It's easy to for us to tell the Palestinians not to use Hamas to defend themselves, as the proper course of action would be a socialist revolution so get working on that, and no dealing with Hamas. Meanwhile they are staring down tank barrels. They have a right to use any means available to them.

[BobKKKindle$]

If Hamas in its present state had the upper hand it would commit horrible crimes against even working class Jews. Do you have a single bit of evidence to support this grossly prejudiced and unsubstantiated assertion? The best indication we have of what Hamas would do in a position of power is the 1988 Charter of Hamas which sets out how the group is organized and what its aims are, and this charter clearly shows that Hamas does not aim to carry out a genocide against the Jewish people or any other ethnic group, and instead recognizes that right of Jews to live in what is currently the state of Israel, given the religious significance of Jerusalem and other historical sites in the region:


Article Thirty-One: The Members of Other Religions. Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions..[etc]Palestine Centre - The Charter of Hamas (http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html)

The main demand revolutionary socialists should raise in relation to the occupation of Palestine is a unified state which encompasses all territory currently under the control of both Israel and the Palestinian resistance movement giving equal rights including but not limited to equal access to all religious sites to both Jews and Muslims as well as all other ethnic and religious groups. The creation of an economically viable Palestinian state would be a progressive development relative to the status quo but the creation of two separate states each representing a religious group should not be the final objective of any socialist, because raising a two-state solution as our main slogan implies that Muslims and Jews would never be able to live in peace together due to entrenched cultural and political differences, which is historically untrue, given the peaceful coexistence and interaction of Muslim and Jewish communities prior to the influx of Zionist settlers.

[Coggeh]

I can't take that theirs still people who f**king defend Israel , they hide behind this cloak of oh if you don't like Israel your a Nazi and the holocaust etc. I can't take their fucking stupidity and lack of fucking logic anymore , Zionists should be beaten to a pulp with shoes !

Sorry .
Anyway , this really is the last straw for me, i used to be very center in my condemnation for Hamas and the Israeli Govt equally but its getting damn hard.

Defend the right for Palestinian armed resistance !
Support the Unity of Israeli & Palestinian workers !
For a Socialist Israel/Palestine federation with complete open borders.

[Mister X]

Defend the right for Palestinian armed resistance !
Support the Unity of Israeli & Palestinian workers !
For a Socialist Israel/Palestine federation with complete open borders.That's where I stand as well. I would be interested in your organization, can you please send me some info about it in a message? I am trying to find a new organization after being in the CPC long time ago.


Also I hope that the first remarks were not about me.



Do you have a single bit of evidence to support this grossly prejudiced and unsubstantiated assertion? The best indication we have of what Hamas would do in a position of power is the 1988 Charter of Hamas which sets out how the group is organized and what its aims are, and this charter clearly shows that Hamas does not aim to carry out a genocide against the Jewish people or any other ethnic group, and instead recognizes that right of Jews to live in what is currently the state of Israel, given the religious significance of Jerusalem and other historical sites in the region:

The killings of innocent civilians with rocket fires. They know that where they shoot their rockets only poor innocent people live but they still do it.
Also it was not long time ago where they used to kill hundreds of innocents with bombs strapped on them.
You might be too young to remember that but it is true.
Maybe the fact that I have lost a close friend of mine on one of these attacks makes me feel that way.
But I don't think its that. It is that as a Marxist I do not support terrorism.

[Honggweilo]

Urgent: Occupation begins ground invasion of Gaza, resistance committed to victory

http://www.pflp.ps/english/files/images/fireingaza.jpg (http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=node/1382)
The occupation forces began their ground invasion of Gaza on January 3, 2008. The occupation forces entered Gaza in several places at approximately 9 PM, while continuing their shelling and targeting of Palestinians from air and sea, killing and wounding still more of our people while their ground forces prevent ambulances and medical personnel from reaching the victims. All Israeli (and US-made) weapons are being used in this invasion, including massive bombs. The occupation forces have bombed the small remaining oil supply used for power in Gaza, cutting 85% of electricity in Gaza and creating massive clouds of thick, toxic smoke.

This oil has been used to power hospitals, ambulances and other emergency services for our people. The criminality of the occupier knows no bounds and is continuing and escalating after a week of onslaught against our besieged people in Gaza.

The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the entire Palestinian resistance and the whole of the Palestinian people is committed to confront the occupier in the face of the Israeli massacres, ground invasions and crimes. We are calling upon people around the world to occupy and take over Israeli, U.S. and Egyptian embassies and consulates around the world. We are confident of the steadfastness of our resistance and the masses of our people. Not one single Palestinian will be defeated in Gaza. We are all in this fight together, men, women, elderly, children, youth, popular resistance, medical workers, fighters, and leaders - we all stand together in fierce, defiant and confident confrontation of the occupier and its crimes, and certain that we are on the march to victory.
http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=urgent-occupation-begins-ground-invasion-gaza-resi


Resistance confirms casualties to Israeli occupation soldiers in the first hour of the invasion

http://www.pflp.ps/english/files/images/tank.jpg (http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=node/1384)
PFLP sources confirmed on January 3, 2009 that in the first hour of the ground invasion of Gaza, Israeli occupation soldiers have already suffered a number of casualties due to the courageous fighting of the resistance forces in Gaza.

The Israeli forces as they continue their ground invasion have been targeting largely women and children. Doctors and medical personnel at Palestinian hospitals are reporting severe injuries and bodies are coming with the kinds of injuries seen from cluster bombs or other types of severely destructive weapons that target human flesh, the so-called anti-personnel weapons. Also, the occupier's targeting of gas resources are causing large gas fires that are poisoning our people and causing an environmental catastrophe.

In the face of these continuing horrific crimes of the occupier, the resistance is continuing to confront the occupier and prevent it from eliminating our resistance. We are continuing to launch missiles into the heart of the occupation and will continue to do so. A roadside explosive device has exploded an occupation tank as it attempted to advance into Gaza and occupation soldiers have suffered serious casualties at the hands of resistance fighters in three sections of Gaza where they are attempting to invade.

The PFLP further warned against attempts at psychological warfare by the enemy in order to demoralize our steadfast people.

Towards victory!


http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=resistance-confirms-casualties-israeli-occupation-

[Honggweilo]

They know that where they shoot their rockets only poor innocent people live but they still do it.

Before you say "innocent civilians", i suggest you read this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

[Mister X]

Before you say "innocent civilians", i suggest you read this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement)

Yes I know what are the Israeli settlements. I was 11 years old when the 6 day war took place , I remember it.
The point is though that the current inhabitants are not Israeli military targets.
With the same logic, there are no innocent American civilians in the US and the natives have the right to wipe them off. It is absurd to think so.

[Honggweilo]

Yes I know what are the Israeli settlements. I was 11 years old when the 6 day war took place , I remember it.
The point is though that the current inhabitants are not Israeli military targets.
With the same logic, there are no innocent American civilians in the US and the natives have the right to wipe them off. It is absurd to think so.



What about the armed militia's, the anti-arab pogroms, the recent Palestinian confiscated lands where settlers completely aware of the blood spilled in retaing their real estate and settle there. I'm not talking about all jewish civilians, i'm talking about occupied territory as a result of the 1967 war and the recently confiscated during the Al-aqsa intifada.

[Mister X]

What about the armed militia's, the anti-arab pogroms, the recent Palestinian confiscated lands where settlers completely aware of their blood spilled in retaing their real estate go and settle. I'm not talking about all jewish civilians, i'm talking about occupied territory as a result of the 1967 war and the recent confiscation during the Al-aqsa intifadah.

I have been to Israel in order to visit some family, not long time ago.
I have visited these areas and in particular the areas that seem to be the target of the rockets fired by Hamas. They are inhabited by poor working class Jews that had no choice but to move there because the land is very cheap due to its position.

If you think that these Jews represent all the evils of the Israeli state and should be killed, just because they moved to lands that the reactionary Israeli state annexed by force then I rest my case.

The enemy is the Israeli state not the Israeli proletariat. As revolutionary leftists we should always draw class lines in our analysis and have in mind working class unity.

It is a treason to revolutionary socialism , if you justify the killings of innocent working class people, whatever their race and whatever the bourgeois state they live under has done, when those workers are unarmed.

[DangerousMexican]

Hey, X, mayhaps I'm being crazy here but...Do you think it could all be a conspiracy? maybe a plot by high-ranking right-winging Zealots to pitch two working classes against each other? Kind of like Pearl Harbor, only 60 years longer.

[Mister X]

Hey, X, mayhaps I'm being crazy here but...Do you think it could all be a conspiracy? maybe a plot by high-ranking right-winging Zealots to pitch two working classes against each other? Kind of like Pearl Harbor, only 60 years longer.

Probably not. I am not a fan of conspiracy theories.
Hamas just doesn't have the correct ideas, methods and tactics.

[DangerousMexican]

Probably not. I am not a fan of conspiracy theories.
Hamas just doesn't have the correct ideas, methods and tactics.

well, think about it. Just as right-wingin' political parties all over the world find excuses like religion and tradition to lull The People into a false sense of patriotism, the whole occupation might just be a way to gather palestine under the wing of Islam.
Maybe 1950's Shieks saw what'd happened in china and Russia and didn't want to risk an uprising of the opressed.
Think About It.

Anyway, in that case, the vast right wing conspiracy should be renamed to the VAST Right Wing Conspiracy

[PRC-UTE]

What the fuck are you talking about?
I am of Jewish descent (a Jew as you would call me)but it happens to live in Canada. If I lived in Israel would you tell me that I couldn't fight for socialism because I am a "Zionist Jew"? Are you a fucking nazi?

No one is interested in what you are. Stop playing that card.

Israel must be destroyed and replaced with a unitary state that transcends identity politics. Identity politics are a poison to the health of self-determination.

And everyone should go back and read WantedMan's post. Or else. :lol:

[peaccenicked]

Depleted Uranium is a genocidal weapon, an attack on human DNA.
This story has to come out.
http://inthesenewtimes.com/2009/01/05/depleted-uranium-found-in-gaza-victims/
How can Israel claim it is merely defending itself even if we make stupid allowances for so-called collateral damage.
Now that there is a ground war, the defence of Gaza is a universal duty.
Terrorism from Gaza is a side issue, but not the State terror which is wholly disproportionate. Supporting rocket fire or not, Hamas is only part of the target.
The UN say 25% of the dead are innocent. They only counted women and children. Men have been declared guilty for being male.
This article from the Guardian 2006 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jul/06/israel.guardiancolumnists)has much resonance today

[Josef Balin]

I think Wanted Man sees the name "Israel" as the Zionist name of the Jewish State that exists their. Which it is. But no doubt there is a large grouping of people within that area that thinks of themselves as "Israeli", and it doesn't matter what it was called before these people were there, a large number of people were born there and deserve the same rights to self-determination as the Palestinians; a socialist Israeli-Palestinian Federation would best fit the needs of the people living in that area.