"It goes w/o saying"

[trivas7]

http://cubanology.com/cubareport/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/50th.jpg (http://cubanology.com/cubareport/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/50th.jpg)
“It goes without saying”

By Jose Reyes
No one in their right mind can possibly tell me or even attempt to convince me or anybody else, that the “Revolucion” has worked in Cuba. Nothing and I mean absolutely nothing positive has occurred in the last 50 years with this brutal, aimless Castro dictatorship. So who is to tell me or anybody else, that the Cuban people will ever be rewarded with any sort of accomplishment? 50 years of misery, is all that any “sane” individual would plainly gather after a general analysis of Cuba now, 50 years ago and every respective year in-between. This is just a general analysis, never mind a “careful” analysis. In that case you can write a book that would rival “War and Peace” in volume, just on detail. Details backed by facts which will prove without a doubt, how useless and pathetic it has been. “It goes without saying”, literally explains it all. You have to be deaf, dumb and blind to even attempt to defend the Castro regime. You have to be an immoral masochist or may I say, an outright devil worshiper, to agree with the self serving “system” there is in Cuba now and for the last 50 years. Unfortunately, there are many out there who actually support the Castro system, but one can plainly see, these individuals all have an agenda behind their sympathizing thinking. Maybe this could be where others seem to miss the point whenever they read about or hear anybody who agrees with the Castro regime. Whether if it is written by the mainstream media or preached in a classroom by a college professor, there is an agenda behind it all. Whether the agenda is a political reason, hatred towards the Cuban Exiles or hatred towards America, these words that are written and these words that are spoken always irresponsibly forget to mention many very important factors. These words are meaningless because there is nothing to back them up. The reason is very obvious but these self-righteous, mislead, controlled, ignorant individuals always steer around the real issues in Cuba. Their Utopian ideals, which govern their thought process, always deny taking into consideration the basic concept of “Human Nature.” Human nature is where Communism always staggers and falls on its face. So for this reason, Cuba only stands for Fidel and “his” revolucion, the Cuban people do not really exist, how could they? The average Cuban in Cuba has no opinion at all, that right is not in the vocabulary. Neither are they allowed to leave the country, no visa. They cannot demonstrate against the Castro regime, long prison terms. So it goes without saying, the Castro regime has done nothing for the Cuban people in the last 50 years that would justify and be considered as positive progress.

http://cubanology.com/cubareport/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/50th2.jpg (http://cubanology.com/cubareport/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/50th2.jpg)
What has the Castro regime done for its citizens? Besides, brainwashing them with false promises and enslaving them like dogs, tell me, what good have they done for them. When the average wage of a Cuban citizen is $20 and all their food is rationed. Someone tell me, what have the Cuban people achieved now that their identity has been taken away from them and what will their future be? It is insult to humanity, what is happening in Cuba now and for the last 50 years. A country that competed head to head with the rest of the world, this is an insult to anybody’s intelligence. So honestly ask yourself if you doubt me, what in the world is this 50th annual celebration all about?

http://cubanology.com/cubareport/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/fidel1959.jpg (http://cubanology.com/cubareport/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/fidel1959.jpg)
Also, can someone please tell me, where is Fidel? He’s the one who started this atrocity. He’s the one that deprives and has deprived for 50 years, the very people of Cuba who he supposedly represents. He along with his brother Raul have deprived the Cuban citizens of their dignity and of all their human rights. It goes without saying, this has been the biggest debacle in modern history.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

It goes without saying that this guy is talking rubbish, whoever he is.

"He along with his brother Raul have deprived the Cuban citizens of their dignity and of all their human rights."

That's right. All of them. Including the right to life, because he killed every single Cuban, and then resurrected them so he could continue to enslave them. I mean, that just goes without saying.

[KC]

I don't get it. Why would you post this? It offers nothing to discuss. It's just an unsubstantiated rant.

[Dr Mindbender]

http://www.cubatruthproject.org/bolgas.jpg

http://www.cubatruthproject.org/


statistics

Literacy and life expectancy (http://www.cubatruthproject.org/baa.html)

Infant mortality (http://www.cubatruthproject.org/infmort.html)

Literacy (http://www.cubatruthproject.org/literacy.html)

Poverty (http://www.cubatruthproject.org/poverty.html)

Patients per Doctor (http://www.cubatruthproject.org/doctors.html)

Patients per Hospital bed (http://www.cubatruthproject.org/hospitals.html)

Attended births (http://www.cubatruthproject.org/abirths.html)

Unemployment (http://www.cubatruthproject.org/unemployment.html)

Inflation (http://www.cubatruthproject.org/inflations.html)

Sanitation (http://www.cubatruthproject.org/sanitation.html)

Women in government (http://www.cubatruthproject.org/women.html)

Women's gains (http://www.cubatruthproject.org/womens.html)

Other facts (http://www.cubatruthproject.org/other.html)


OP=massive fail.

[#FF0000]

The average wage is $20? I wish I worked in Cuba!

[Dr Mindbender]

what the author of the above point completely ignores, is that capitalist economies like India, Indonesia and the Phillipines think nothing of paying their workers a few cents a day. I dont see the anti cuba brigade decrying these states.

[Led Zeppelin]

It goes without saying, this has been the biggest debacle in modern history.
Nazism? Fascism? Invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan?

No, clearly the Cuban revolution.

The author is a moron, and you are too for reposting it.

[Mindtoaster]

You have to be pretty fucking thick to still be farting out this shit after 1,100 posts. Im not saying you should be a communist by now, but holy fucking shit.

Ulster Socialist pretty much covered all the statistics needed for any kind of reasonable analysis of cuba. I doubt its anything new to you :rolleyes:

I would love to see some capitalist prove that conditions haven't improved in Cuba since the revolution. All the OP provided was a rant based in absolutely no evidence or critical analysis whatsoever

[GPDP]

You have to be pretty fucking thick to still be farting out this shit after 1,100 posts. Im not saying you should be a communist by now, but holy fucking shit.

Get this: he used to be a commie until, like, two months ago.

[Plagueround]

Did Trivas get hacked...or lobotomized? I don't expect everyone to be a hardcore communist all their lives, I accept that some people may change their minds, but to go from well thought out and written arguments to...this...I call foul.

[GPDP]

Indeed. And people called LSD's transition into left-liberalism/social-democracy a "political 180".

[Pogue]

You do tend to notice, after a while, that the articles on Cuba which are critical never quote any statistics at all.

[Dr Mindbender]

You do tend to notice, after a while, that the articles on Cuba which are critical never quote any statistics at all.
nope just the usual tired hackneyed non substantiated claims that ''che guevara was a coward who begged for his life'' and various other shit.

[Hammer_Sickle_Revolution]

It is insult to humanity, what is happening in Cuba now.

Yes, the American blockade is an insult to humanity.

1,836 people in the US dead from Hurricane Katrina. Venezuela and Cuba offered help, but the help was refused. That is an insult to humanity.

[bawbag]

i was waiting for the statistics and facts to appear somewhere in that bollocks but they were no where to be seen, anyone who

says there are no facts to back up supporters of castro but yet this person doesn't use them either

hypocrite

[Mister X]

This ongoing rant by the author of the article made me want to punch my screen.
I can listen and argue with social-democrats or intelligent progressive people that don't believe in socialism. But to have a bunch of bullshit presented to me with no facts and evidence is an insult to my intelligence and i bet an insult to other peoples intelligence here.

What is the point of this thread really ? To restate bourgeois propaganda that gets repeated every now and then on the media?
If the OP wants to argue his ideas he should present them with an intelligent article, copy pasted from another source rather than FOX news.



Get this: he used to be a commie until, like, two months ago.

it happens a lot with petit-bourgeois kids who pretend to be revolutionary and come up with all these "radical" ideas. They even criticize others for not being "radical enough. Once they have wasted peoples time with their little games they return to their petit-bourgeois world, wasting peoples times with bourgeois shit this time.

That's why I don't take seriously any kid that thinks that I am not revolutionary enough just because I don't use violence, or because I have participated in bourgeois elections with the CPC , or because I would participate in bourgeois elections right now with a suitable party. Because those kids will grow out of it and realize that their ideas are ridiculus. Prcisely because they had idealist/utopian ideas, or due to the material conditions surrounding them.

[mykittyhasaboner]

At least the OP has some nice pics.

[Dr Mindbender]

At least the OP has some nice pics.

What a shame for the OP they do nothing in proving his point. Maybe if they were showing the 'evil oppressive commie state' they'd have greater leverage but none of the individuals shown seem to be having a bad time.

[Pogue]

What a shame for the OP they do nothing in proving his point. Maybe if they were showing the 'evil oppressive commie state' they'd have greater leverage but none of the individuals shown seem to be having a bad time.

LOL Its true, they all seem to be having something of a good time actually. It slike this guardian article i've seen today which slags off cuba, and all the pictures are just normal pictures which reveal nothing. I could go to any UK town, take similar pictures and write an article with 'First hand accounts' of how bad life is there (it isn't). Such bollocks.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

The average wage is $20? I wish I worked in Cuba!

That's $20 a month.



What a shame for the OP they do nothing in proving his point. Maybe if they were showing the 'evil oppressive commie state' they'd have greater leverage but none of the individuals shown seem to be having a bad time.Ever talk to a Cuban exile?

I have spoken to a few, and I hope I none of them are considered the brightest. No facts, just hatred of everything Castro and how horrible he is. You try to have a debate like, say, "Well, compared to Haiti Cuba seems to have done a-"

"No No No Castro killed everyone and raped the women and eats brains!!!"

I exxagerate, but not by much. When I talk to Pakistani's who hated Musharraf at least they're willing to listen to and debate your points.

Octobox, of course, is an exception and I'm sure there are very many who can eloquently state their beliefs on Cuba as opposed to screaming gibberish.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

So tell me trivas7, when did you start believing things without doing even the most rudimentary fact check?

[Jazzratt]

It's all the usual gusano exile bullshit packaged up with empty grandstanding language. What a waste of time.

[Dean]

Is Cuba perfect? Is it a workers' paradise? Has the 'revolution' freed the people?

I would say "no" resoundingly on all counts. As the goal of communism (clause 3), sure, the revolution has failed to bring about necessary changes.

Is it better there now than before? Damn right it is. Was it just because the USSR aid was more humanitarian than anything the U.S. would have offered the state? Is the central-economy's socialization coupled with fairly liberal attitudes about small businesses what keeps them going? Or has the propaganda - saturated media filled with nationalist and anti-Imperial messages simply maintained a tight community on the island?

Who the fuck knows? I do know that the Batista regime was brutal, exploitative and materially useless to the Cuban people. The Communist Party has managed to do away with those relations on a number of fronts, while creating and maintaining sensible notions of collectivization. The Cuban Revolution has undoubtedly failed to put into motion fundamental, revolutionary change in Cuba, but it has managed to do a number of things, perhaps the most important being the fertilization of the notion that the Cuban people have a right to enjoy the prosperity their labour helps to create.

[JimmyJazz]

From a liberal perspective, it does go without saying. We are not going to change anyone's view on Cuba except by first spreading radical ideas such as, primarily, the LToV and the idea of labor self-management.

Btw the article inspired me to change my user title.

[trivas7]

From a liberal perspective, it does go without saying. We are not going to change anyone's view on Cuba except by first spreading radical ideas such as, primarily, the LToV and the idea of labor self-management.

Indeed, Cuba hardly qualifies as a poster boy for labor self-management, you devil, you.

[Hit The North]

*sigh*

trivas7 whatever happened to you?

[KC]

Wow he really turned into a troll.

[Dr Mindbender]

Btw the article inspired me to change my user title.


Did you even bother to read the stats i provided? Look, I know that Cuba is no paragon of communism and wealth redistribution (i'm not even a Castro sympathiser or anything) but when you consider that across the board, Cubans have the best standard of living in certainly the Caribbean, and possibly all of Latin America, it tells you that the Cuba bashers are bang wrong on this one.


I mean Jesus Christ, they have fewer patients per doctor than the US. I think some people ought to be doing less stone-throwing-in glass houses.

[Reclaimed Dasein]

I'm just horrified horrified at Castro, Che, and Cuba. Didn't you know that before they came around Cuba was the most technologically advanced, industrially forward, liberal, progressive democracy in the history of the world? EVER. Did you know that? It's not like Cuba was a small banana republic dominated by American agriculture, gambling, and mobsters all headed up by a brutal and corrupt dictator. What a shame we lost such a shining example of democracy to thugs like Castro and Che. Clearly communism has been detremental to Cuba. Just compare it to the United States, Canada, Western Europe or any other country that comes within the reasonable scope of comparison. Given it's vast natural resources it's horrifying that it's only marginally better than Hati, Mexico, Guatamala, Ecuador, and really just about every other Latin American country.

Oh well.

[GPDP]

Did you even bother to read the stats i provided? Look, I know that Cuba is no paragon of communism and wealth redistribution (i'm not even a Castro sympathiser or anything) but when you consider that across the board, Cubans have the best standard of living in certainly the Caribbean, and possibly all of Latin America, it tells you that the Cuba bashers are bang wrong on this one.


I mean Jesus Christ, they have fewer patients per doctor than the US. I think some people ought to be doing less stone-throwing-in glass houses.

I think he was being sarcastic.

[Dr Mindbender]

I think he was being sarcastic.

was he? Oh well, it was more or less intended as a final general response to any remaining iota of anti-cuba sentiment.

[JimmyJazz]

Ulster and GPDP:

The OP article says that Cuba supporters are "outright devil worshipers". I was being ironic, but not sarcastic.

trivas:

I in no way believe that Marxist/socialist rhetoric qualifies a country as actually being socialist. I'm perfectly willing to admit that most regimes that have called themselves Marxist have done a much better job at expropriating the expropriaters than they have of implementing workers' control. I'm also willing to admit that there is a huge range of management styles within the countries that retain capitalist ownership, from the Taylorism/"scientific management" style pioneered in the U.S., to the modern Japanese style which is quite cooperative and participatiory.

My support for Cuba's economic structure has to do with the relatively unbiased information I've come across about them, not with Fidel's rhetoric. I obviously don't think it's a perfect system that could not be improved upon, but I do think that it's a better and more democratic model than the U.S., and that if Cuba enjoyed good trade relations with the whole world and wasn't targeted by an extensive U.S. embargo, it would be doing as well in a macroeconomic sense as its workers are doing individually.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Cubans have the best standard of living in certainly the Caribbean, and possibly all of Latin America,

Really? Better than Puerto Rico? I've never been, but at least they can buy a plane ticket here as opposed to building a raft.

[JimmyJazz]

Out of all the countries in the Carribean, Cuba has the best standing in quality-of-life measures versus its own standing in measures of national output. And that is the relevant statistic.

[Dr Mindbender]

Really? Better than Puerto Rico? I've never been, but at least they can buy a plane ticket here as opposed to building a raft.

Puerto Rico is the exception because it's a US satellite. Even then, theres fewer doctors in PR per person.

What about Mexicans? They have capitalism but they still want to leave. Not that they can because of your border controls.

At least all cubans have literacy and access to medical treatment.