gaza strip smackdown

[danyboy27]

lets discuss about that.

israel overreacted again...

now in that particular case israel is presumably doing this in order to stop the quassam, but it take no rocket scientist to understand that the massives bombing of the last 3 day wont change nothing, and the small contigent of 6500 reservist will not do much, they will kill probably a buch of militant, go away and the qssam gonna rain all over again.

its just painful to watch, that stupid circle going again and again and again.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

And what do you think the realitives of the dead palastinains are going to

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

and what do you think the friends and family of those killed by isreal are going to do.

[Forward Union]

I think this is an absolutely terrible conflict brought about by a mixture of Western Imperialist Apirations and Religious Fundementalism on both sides.

[Socialist Scum]

"Gaza strip smackdown?" Sounds like a cheap porn film.

This is a issue that will continue well into the second half of the 21st century. No borders can be made which will please everyone, and so this happens. Israel could solve it by giving up the Gaza strip, but what will Israelite nationalists response be to this? It would probably lead to a even more hard-line government being elected in and once again occupation. What are the Israelites views on this, their peoples?

[RGacky3]

Isreal did'nt "overeact" They did exactly waht they wanted to do, terrorize the palestinians into submission. Thats the tactic, Palestinians shoot some missles, the Isrealis smash Palestinian territory to the ground and make sure the palestinians know whos in control.

Its not as simple as just action and reaction. Isreal is doing what the United States does, when someone they want to control acts up, they terrorise and bang them up so bad that next time (they hope) they'll think twice, thats the mentality.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

The bottle rocket attacks on Israel aside, armed Palestinian resistance is a joke. Only a week ago Hamas was talking about how they weren't going to resume the ceasefire and how they were ready for IDF aggression

Bunch of idiots. Israel doesn't have a conscience. Israel wins.

That said, the blind support our government is giving to Israel at he moment is disgusting, both on humanitarian grounds and for those of us who wish our government to be a more honest broker (or at the very least, not so obviously biased towards Israel).

[ZeroNowhere]

The bottle rocket attacks on Israel aside, armed Palestinian resistance is a joke. Only a week ago Hamas was talking about how they weren't going to resume the ceasefire and how they were ready for IDF aggression
Correct, some Palestinians killed one Israeli, so now the Israeli leaders can kill 300 or so Palestinians?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Correct, some Palestinians killed one Israeli, so now the Israeli leaders can kill 300 or so Palestinians?

Well, obviously, yes, Israel can. In fact, they already have.

And Hamas has shown how incompetent it really is defending Palestinians from Israeli aggression. In fact, both sides seem completely unable to curtail the others actions. Hamas has launched more rockets and killed 4 Israelis since the bombings began, while Israel has killed scores from above.

With all those wealthy oil-rich backers, I thought fighting gazans would surely have some Stingers and other anti-aircraft weapons which can easily take out helicopters and thereby force the Israelis to dramatically shift strategy. It remains to be seen if they are capable of creating ground resistance, as Israel has yet to invade.

Once again, not that I agree with what Israel is doing or that I want them to continue, I'm just not suprised.

[danyboy27]

The bottle rocket attacks on Israel aside, armed Palestinian resistance is a joke. Only a week ago Hamas was talking about how they weren't going to resume the ceasefire and how they were ready for IDF aggression

Bunch of idiots. Israel doesn't have a conscience. Israel wins.

That said, the blind support our government is giving to Israel at he moment is disgusting, both on humanitarian grounds and for those of us who wish our government to be a more honest broker (or at the very least, not so obviously biased towards Israel).

militarly speaking, israel will not achieve anything at all, and this bombing campaign is just useless, probably the decision of some stupid generals or maybe the idea of a stupid politician who decided to make a stunt out of it. sending 6500 reservist is also a joke in tern of efectiveness on the ground.

they should have sent a group of 40 000 soldier and cancel the air campaign, and reoccupy the sector instead, taking control of the hamas on the ground, and lift the blockade.

israel used to have some military thinker, but the 3 last year tend to make me think its not the case anymore.

[danyboy27]

Well, obviously, yes, Israel can. In fact, they already have.

And Hamas has shown how incompetent it really is defending Palestinians from Israeli aggression. In fact, both sides seem completely unable to curtail the others actions. Hamas has launched more rockets and killed 4 Israelis since the bombings began, while Israel has killed scores from above.

With all those wealthy oil-rich backers, I thought fighting gazans would surely have some Stingers and other anti-aircraft weapons which can easily take out helicopters and thereby force the Israelis to dramatically shift strategy. It remains to be seen if they are capable of creating ground resistance, as Israel has yet to invade.

Once again, not that I agree with what Israel is doing or that I want them to continue, I'm just not suprised.

i seriopusly think iran could have helped hamas but didnt do shit for political reasons, or maybe the logistics of sending weapon trought the middle east and pass them by egypt was just too much complicated.

[RGacky3]

militarly speaking, israel will not achieve anything at all, and this bombing campaign is just useless, probably the decision of some stupid generals or maybe the idea of a stupid politician who decided to make a stunt out of it. sending 6500 reservist is also a joke in tern of efectiveness on the ground.


Militarily it scared the hell out of palestinians, which is what Isreal wants.

[danyboy27]

Militarily it scared the hell out of palestinians, which is what Isreal wants.

but it will not achieve nothing positive on the military side, lebannon got the same treatement and it didnt really weakened the hezbollah or the will for them.

and for all that bad press, its really not worth it.

[Glenn Beck]

With all those wealthy oil-rich backers, I thought fighting gazans would surely have some Stingers and other anti-aircraft weapons which can easily take out helicopters and thereby force the Israelis to dramatically shift strategy.

The amount of foreign support received by Hamas, and the extent to which the various Arab nations are united against Israel is greatly exaggerated. For one thing, Egypt is going along with all this, they have Israel's back. Remember the border crossing incident earlier this year? The ruling classes of the various Middle Eastern nations seem more interested in using the Palestinians as an easy way to earn populist cred without having to really commit to anything.

Anyone recall that scene in the film Charlie Wilson's War when the leader/ambassador/whatever from Pakistan told Senator Wilson that "nobody must know that these weapons are coming from Israel!"?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

"Gaza strip smackdown?" Sounds like a cheap porn film.

Sounds like a wrestling event to me.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

The ruling classes of the various Middle Eastern nations seem more interested in using the Palestinians as an easy way to earn populist cred without having to really commit to anything.

Exactly.


Anyone recall that scene in the film Charlie Wilson's War when the leader/ambassador/whatever from Pakistan told Senator Wilson that "nobody must know that these weapons are coming from Israel!"?Haven't seen it, is it good?


i seriopusly think iran could have helped hamas but didnt do shit for political reasons, or maybe the logistics of sending weapon trought the middle east and pass them by egypt was just too much complicated.I think that there are many, many very wealthy middle eastern nations and individuals which, like Gonzeau said, use Palestine for propaganda but in the end are probably happy with the force Israel is using, which will just be turned into populist support.



but it will not achieve nothing positive on the military side, lebannon got the same treatement and it didnt really weakened the hezbollah or the will for them.

and for all that bad press, its really not worth it. Define "positive," do you mean in humanitarian or IDF terms?

Also, I don't know if one can compare the independent nation of lebanon with the besieged Gaza strip.

Lastly, if bad press was a concern for Israelis they wouldn't be around anymore.

One thing to add, Israel has nukes and no amount of smuggled guns is going to shift the balance nor solve the problem. The only answer for Palestinians is with complete non-violent resistance based on the teachings of Gandhi and MLK.

[danyboy27]

Define "positive," do you mean in humanitarian or IDF terms?

Also, I don't know if one can compare the independent nation of lebanon with the besieged Gaza strip.

Lastly, if bad press was a concern for Israelis they wouldn't be around anymore.

One thing to add, Israel has nukes and no amount of smuggled guns is going to shift the balance nor solve the problem. The only answer for Palestinians is with complete non-violent resistance based on the teachings of Gandhi and MLK.
militarly its bad, economicly its bad, and ethicly its bad.

no matter how bombed the zone is, you need ground forces to take the guys down and hold the ground, and i doubt 6500 reservist will do the trick.
in order to really cease the rocket attack, you would need to occupy the zone that are used to fire the rocket and install a functionnal security force inside the region, wether it is a palestinian friendly force or a israeli one.

much of the potential usable infrastructures are being destroyed right now, infrastructures that fatah would have needed anyway, wich mean israel gonna have to spend million repuilding police station, rebuilding jail, governement offices etc. with a huge ground contingent, those building could be taken, with a minimum of damages and an acceptable number of military casualities. this is the IDF for god sake.

to me, this bombing campaign sound like some politician and drunk air force genral get together and where saying something like this:

politician-we need to stop the rocket but how?
air force general-man! we gonna scare the shit out of them! they will stop
politician-for sure! you do that man you do that!

[hajduk]

Isreal did'nt "overeact" They did exactly waht they wanted to do, terrorize the palestinians into submission. Thats the tactic, Palestinians shoot some missles, the Isrealis smash Palestinian territory to the ground and make sure the palestinians know whos in control.

Its not as simple as just action and reaction. Isreal is doing what the United States does, when someone they want to control acts up, they terrorise and bang them up so bad that next time (they hope) they'll think twice, thats the mentality.one question

who came on a land first,Palestinians or Israels?

[danyboy27]

one question, who came?

not me..

[RGacky3]

who came on a land first,Palestinians or Israels?

Cannanites.

[Demogorgon]

So many people seem to miss the fact that Israel has a vested interest in keeping the conflict going. Peace means the end of military rule in Palestine and the crashing down of the apartheid system. It is just like in South Africa where the Government knew that if they sought peace they would have to dismantle the structures that kept apartheid in peace.

So just as the South African Government deliberately antagonised the liberation struggle, forcing them to defend themselves more and more, so does Israel force the palestinians to use ever more desperate attempts to defend themselves. Israel has better weapons and better trained fighters and can be confident that no serious damage can be afflicted on it, meanwhile it can inflict enough that it will be impossible for Palestinians to roll over and offer terms of "peace" so outrageous that no palestinian can ever accept it. Any move from the status quo will hurt Israel and it knows it, so it maintains the status quo, even if that means that a few Israelis have to die each year in addition to the hundreds of Palestinians who are killed.

[RedKnight]

Here is what the Israeli Communist Party has to say about it. http://www.maki.org.il/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1921&Itemid=106

[hajduk]

not me..escape to the void?

[hajduk]

So many people seem to miss the fact that Israel has a vested interest in keeping the conflict going. Peace means the end of military rule in Palestine and the crashing down of the apartheid system. It is just like in South Africa where the Government knew that if they sought peace they would have to dismantle the structures that kept apartheid in peace.

So just as the South African Government deliberately antagonised the liberation struggle, forcing them to defend themselves more and more, so does Israel force the palestinians to use ever more desperate attempts to defend themselves. Israel has better weapons and better trained fighters and can be confident that no serious damage can be afflicted on it, meanwhile it can inflict enough that it will be impossible for Palestinians to roll over and offer terms of "peace" so outrageous that no palestinian can ever accept it. Any move from the status quo will hurt Israel and it knows it, so it maintains the status quo, even if that means that a few Israelis have to die each year in addition to the hundreds of Palestinians who are killed.same shit we have in bosnia Yugoslav army transformed in Chetnicks Army and they have all weapons from EX-YU army arsenal,plains,tanks,guns etc. and the paradox is that people who been killed by that weapons,before during all that years of Yugoslavia state rules and some after Tito die,are paying the bills for Yugoslav army in the manner that from own salary, one part of the money they earned, by the state law, must give to Yugoslav army budget and EX-YU have 25 million citizens in that time (you do the math),so in the manner of speaking they paying the bills for own death,creepy

[hajduk]

Cannanites.but what about dinos

[Forward Union]

This is what happens when you found a Jewish Theocracy on top of an Islamic one.

Who could have foreseen anyone having a problem with that?

[Bilan]

That sort of crap has happened for thousands of years, this isn't a particularly exceptional case.
Hell, it's the basis for how many countries?
The Judaism and Islam thing is a cloak for the National tensions, and the National tensions are a cloak for the clash of bourgeois interests.

[Pawn Power]

This is what happens when you found a Jewish Theocracy on top of an Islamic one.

Who could have foreseen anyone having a problem with that?

That is somewhat of a shortsighted analysis. :glare:

The history of Israeli-Palestinian conflict is rooted in occupation, expansion, and imperialism. We cannot view it as a "clash of cultures" or "religions." Conflicts arise in all cases of conquest, regardless of the religions or cultures involved.

[Phalanx]

I agree, it's not only shortsighted but a lazy answer as well. Many Israelis are by most definitions, secular. The conflict has been one of conquest, religion/ethnicity are tools in which ruling classes can further breed hatred. Bush used the term 'crusade' to describe the invasion of Iraq, yet most realize that the Iraq War isn't about religion or ethnicity at all.

[Forward Union]

That is somewhat of a shortsighted analysis. :glare:

The history of Israeli-Palestinian conflict is rooted in occupation, expansion, and imperialism. We cannot view it as a "clash of cultures" or "religions." Conflicts arise in all cases of conquest, regardless of the religions or cultures involved.

I wasn't being entirely serious. I recognise the Imperialist nature of Israel.

[graffic]

I think Israel's actions in Gaza will create more hostility, more anger, more resentment and ultimately more psychotic anti-semites who will support extremist terror.

But I also understand Israel's position. Israel has no other option when rockets are raining down daily on Israeli towns. And ofcourse the terroists will win the propaganda war because the Israeli attacks will always result in civilian casualties due to the Hamas tactic of hiding amongst civilians. Using civilian shields, which is a war crime.

However, I think the thing to remember is this...

Hamas rockets are aimed at Jewish civilians. Note the fact that they are aimed at a race of people. Arab Israelis are called martyrs when they are hit by rockets, Jewish children and grandmothers get cheers from Hamas when they die. Hamas rockets are fired with a racist agenda, they are also intended to kill innocents.

Now lets compare that to Israel. Israel does not wish to kill innocents. Israel does not have a hatred of a certain race of people. Israel aims its attacks against combatants in order to deter death. Israel only fights when it is provoked.

As a liberal who believes in social progression and democracy I know exactly who I support in this conflict.

[RGacky3]

Now lets compare that to Israel. Israel does not wish to kill innocents. Israel does not have a hatred of a certain race of people. Israel aims its attacks against combatants in order to deter death. Israel only fights when it is provoked.

Thats complete Bull, Isreal attacks "terrorist targets" which includes a wide wide range of things, mosques, police stations, really anything, remember Hamas is the government in Gaza, so Isreals definition of "terrorist targets" is extreamly wide.

Hamas does'nt "hide behind" civilians, Hamas is both a military organization AND a civilian organization and a political one.

Talking about racism, your forgetting the whole basis of Isreals existance, which was Zionism, which is pretty borderline racism, (just replace jewish with ayrian in all of their rhetoric, see how it sounds).

The mistake that many people make, is the assumption that one side is level headed and honorable and the otherside is not, which is compleatly untrue, the only difference is, one side is being funded by the US, billions of dolars of weaponry, a fairly wealthy economy, and the other steeped in extreme poverty and has relatively primative weapons.

[danyboy27]

Thats complete Bull, Isreal attacks "terrorist targets" which includes a wide wide range of things, mosques, police stations, really anything, remember Hamas is the government in Gaza, so Isreals definition of "terrorist targets" is extreamly wide.

Hamas does'nt "hide behind" civilians, Hamas is both a military organization AND a civilian organization and a political one.

Talking about racism, your forgetting the whole basis of Isreals existance, which was Zionism, which is pretty borderline racism, (just replace jewish with ayrian in all of their rhetoric, see how it sounds).

The mistake that many people make, is the assumption that one side is level headed and honorable and the otherside is not, which is compleatly untrue, the only difference is, one side is being funded by the US, billions of dolars of weaponry, a fairly wealthy economy, and the other steeped in extreme poverty and has relatively primative weapons.

if i was a hamas leader i would hid stockpiles of missiles in civilian building, mosques and all that, mainly beccause it would be my only way to avoid my stockpile to be derstroyed, and potentially accuse the other side of targetting civilians. hezbollah did that, and it was succesfull.

i sortof agree with gacky here, there is no real good side in that story.

I got my personnal issues of how this is handled by the israeli, and its militarly verry disappointing to see one of the most well trainined army of the middle east failing to preserve the infrastructure and to apply the most rudimentary principles of the art of war.

-capture the state intact
-never trap another army against the wall
-dont encourage bloodshed

[graffic]

Thats complete Bull, Isreal attacks "terrorist targets" which includes a wide wide range of things, mosques, police stations, really anything, remember Hamas is the government in Gaza, so Isreals definition of "terrorist targets" is extreamly wide.

Hamas does'nt "hide behind" civilians, Hamas is both a military organization AND a civilian organization and a political one.


Yes, but Israel's mission is to kill those who are firing rockets. Anyone who uses a home or a school, or a mosque to fire rockets are using human shields.

The thing to note is that these people are religious fanatics, brainwashed supremacists. They don't see human life the way we educated people see it. For them the 500 or so innocents that have died so far in Gaza have gone straight to God as martyrs.

[hajduk]

Thats complete Bull, Isreal attacks "terrorist targets" which includes a wide wide range of things, mosques, police stations, really anything, remember Hamas is the government in Gaza, so Isreals definition of "terrorist targets" is extreamly wide.

Hamas does'nt "hide behind" civilians, Hamas is both a military organization AND a civilian organization and a political one.

Talking about racism, your forgetting the whole basis of Isreals existance, which was Zionism, which is pretty borderline racism, (just replace jewish with ayrian in all of their rhetoric, see how it sounds).

The mistake that many people make, is the assumption that one side is level headed and honorable and the otherside is not, which is compleatly untrue, the only difference is, one side is being funded by the US, billions of dolars of weaponry, a fairly wealthy economy, and the other steeped in extreme poverty and has relatively primative weapons.yes fucking Zionacis

[RGacky3]

Yes, but Israel's mission is to kill those who are firing rockets. Anyone who uses a home or a school, or a mosque to fire rockets are using human shields.


Based on their actions their message is to send the message "We are in control don't screw with us."


The thing to note is that these people are religious fanatics, brainwashed supremacists. They don't see human life the way we educated people see it.

Really? So they arn't upset about the Isrealis killing 500 or so of their people. "We educated people," this is the attitude that I'm takling about, the idea that somehow the Palestinians are simply less rational than everyone else, given theier situation, their response is perfectly understandable, you pull a dog by its ear for so long and its gonna bite.

They are no more supremist or fanatical than Zionists that believe that Isreal "Belongs" to the Jewish people, regardles of who lives there.

When you do what has been done to the Palestinian people for so long, terrorism can be expected, I don't condone it, but I"m not suprised. Thats also expected from an imperialist power trying to keep control over a region.


I got my personnal issues of how this is handled by the israeli, and its militarly verry disappointing to see one of the most well trainined army of the middle east failing to preserve the infrastructure and to apply the most rudimentary principles of the art of war.


Depends on what the goals are, what Isreal is doing is essencially a form of terrorism.

[Pawn Power]

I wasn't being entirely serious. I recognise the Imperialist nature of Israel.

Indeed. Though the position that the roots of the conflict are in the cultural or religious differences between people is fairly common. Similar arguments are made domestically on racial grounds. That is, there is urban violence because the differences between blacks and whites, latinos and asians, etc. The argument is based in racism.

[Hiero]

The religious position is a superficial one. Alot of atheist organisation point the Israel Palestinian conflict as a reason why religion is bad. As if these didn't have religion they wouldn't have anything against each other. Well is alot more complicated than that. I think religion is just the out layer, the conduit for struggle between two nations of people. Then at the centre of that is the class contradiction.

It is usually militant anti-theist who take a moral stance against religion who dwell into idealist positions when religion is involved. And that is what it is, idealist because then you are looking out how each individual is motivated by their emotions, or duped into "hating each other". Then we get the despicable and pathetic line about "loving thy neighbour", as if the whole conflict is about personal hate against each other.

Religion only gives gives the rationale to the conflict. I think you can pretty much disregard religion completly. Unless you are study and want to show the various ways conflict and violence is expressed and controlled via culture, then you can look at religion in this case as a conduit of violence.

[danyboy27]

Depends on what the goals are, what Isreal is doing is essencially a form of terrorism.

or botched decision from politician, or even worst, bad military thinker.

i mean come on! there must be more subtile way to stop the rocket attack.

drones with 5 lb explosive missiles (way weaker than the actual hellfire) would blow any rocket launching sites in a matter of minutes, israel just need a lot of them, and its not like they lack of funding for that.

but yea gacky, i again agree with you, this must be politicly motivated and controlled to be that botched.

[RGacky3]

or botched decision from politician, or even worst, bad military thinker.


First of all, what military/political experience do you have? Not much I presume, so its interesting that your judging them from that angle. Second you ahve no idea what their goals are (which I think are more psychological warfare), so its impossible for you to say if they failed or not.

[Sky]

The Zionists are solely responsible for the crisis in Gaza as shown by their treacherous violation of the ceasefire agreement. In just one November airstrike, four Gazans were murdered. For the past 18 months the Zionists have kept a crippling blockade on Gaza, causing serious hardships for Palestinians. The Zionists never left Gaza, for they maintained control of its airspace and borders. This premeditated aggression against Gaza is part of the Zionists' "final solution" against the Palestinian people. With this futile effort to wipe out Hamas, the Zionists seek to cut off the head of the Palestinian people.

The United States regime bears a special responsibility for these massacres, whether through collusion or incitement. Just compare the response of Washington towards this situation to the Mumbai incident. Equally condemnable is the inaction and even collusion by reactionary Arab regimes, particularly those of Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Progressive forces must render unconditional support to the Palestinians and their political organizations in this just war against aggression.

[RGacky3]

This premeditated aggression against Gaza is part of the Zionists' "final solution" against the Palestinian people.

Nice wording, way to keep the discussion on a high rational level without throwing in dumb ass emotionally charged rhetoric.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

I think Israel's actions in Gaza will create more hostility, more anger, more resentment and ultimately more psychotic anti-semites who will support extremist terror.

But I also understand Israel's position. Israel has no other option when rockets are raining down daily on Israeli towns. And ofcourse the terroists will win the propaganda war because the Israeli attacks will always result in civilian casualties due to the Hamas tactic of hiding amongst civilians. Using civilian shields, which is a war crime.

However, I think the thing to remember is this...

Hamas rockets are aimed at Jewish civilians. Note the fact that they are aimed at a race of people. Arab Israelis are called martyrs when they are hit by rockets, Jewish children and grandmothers get cheers from Hamas when they die. Hamas rockets are fired with a racist agenda, they are also intended to kill innocents.

Now lets compare that to Israel. Israel does not wish to kill innocents. Israel does not have a hatred of a certain race of people. Israel aims its attacks against combatants in order to deter death. Israel only fights when it is provoked.

As a liberal who believes in social progression and democracy I know exactly who I support in this conflict.
I was watching the news today and they were reporting from the ruins of a school that had been struck by an Israeli bomb. I'm not usually a violent person but listening to someone try to defend that makes me want to punch them.

[danyboy27]

First of all, what military/political experience do you have? Not much I presume, so its interesting that your judging them from that angle. Second you ahve no idea what their goals are (which I think are more psychological warfare), so its impossible for you to say if they failed or not.

i dont have any military or political experience, you dont have any military/political experience, we both have no clue of what going on inside the israeli governement, or even in the hamas, all we can do is presume, suppose or give statement backed by highly biaised sources.

i dont see how my opinion is less significant than yours.

[RGacky3]

I'm not judging their military tactics, or any of that, my opinion is simply judging them morally, by pointing out what they are doing.

What your doing is presuming goals and then judging tactics.

To be frank, I could care less about the tactics, what I'm interested in is that this is a manifestation of Imperialism and how it can be stopped.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I was watching the news today and they were reporting from the ruins of a school that had been struck by an Israeli bomb. I'm not usually a violent person but listening to someone try to defend that makes me want to punch them.

The same thing happened to me after that particular bombing (or shelling, whatever it was). It was some Israeli diplomat and all he did for me was make me, for the first time in my life, curse the jews. I quickly recanted as it was a stupid, childish thing to say but goddamn that diplomat I saw trying to explain that bombing got under my skin.

Why is it so hard just to say "We made a horrible mistake which we deeply regret. We are, however, going to continue the fight and do everything possible to avoid this type of horrific event from occuring again."

I still would have disagreed with his statement, but at least then he wouldn't have sounded like a demon sent from hell.

[spice756]

The fighting will not stop to the fundamental religious are gone .A ceasefire will only work so long and the fighting will start again .

The only way is the fundamental religious to be killed and UN inspectors to make sure no military build up.All borders to and from Palestine monitored .The fundamental religious people go around brainwashing kids to be fighters to fight in a crusade.

Has for Israel they should try keep the collateral damage down .Has for Iran giving Palestine rockets to be used on Israel and supporting the fight , this is turning into big mess.

Most Arab countries want peace it is fundamental religious in Palestine and Iran that want go to war.

[danyboy27]

you did pretty well of presuming stuff you didnt have any info, acting like you where holding the complete truth on how israel handle this.
i speculate, but you declare stuff like you where holding ultra secret information on the topic

Isreal did'nt "overeact" They did exactly waht they wanted to do, terrorize the palestinians into submission. Thats the tactic, Palestinians shoot some missles, the Isrealis smash Palestinian territory to the ground and make sure the palestinians know whos in control.


how can you be so sure of that? any official info or ultra secret document in your possesion?


Militarily it scared the hell out of palestinians, which is what Isreal wants.
then again, how can you be so confident of what israel want? you had a meeting with israeli general recently?

dont judge me on my speculation when you are basicly doing the same.

[Andy Bowden]

RGacky3 is right, in terms of where the evidence lies for a plan of deliberately targeting the Palestinian civilian population, a few months ago Israel approved what was called "The Dahiya Strategy".

This refers to a suburb of Beirut which was basically carpet bombed in the 2006 war, where the entire suburb was treated as a Hezbollah base. The Dahiya strategy basically expands that to all areas of Lebanon with a Hezbollah prescence, and naturally the entirety of Gaza.

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3605863,00.html


We shall pulverize the 160 Shiite villages that have turned into Shiite army bases, and we shall not show mercy when it comes to hitting the national infrastructure of a state that, in practice, is controlled by Hizbullah. This strategy is not a threat uttered by an impassioned officer, but rather, an approved plan.

[One Empire]

An Atomic bomb, detonated right over the Arabs and the Israelis.

World would be better off without those two.

[RGacky3]

how can you be so sure of that? any official info or ultra secret document in your possesion?


Based on what they are doing, how they are doing it, and historical actions, also basic logic.

[lombas]

Just in: the Red Cross went in a couple of houses that were heavily under fire, and found four (wounded) children next to their dead mothers. The Israeli army had prevented them from going in and offer help although they knew there were civilian casualties and no militants in the neighbourhood.

Because of the Red Cross' usual neutrality, this message has a heavy impact internationally. The answer of the Israeli defense ministry was that the Red Cross can lay down charges against it, otherwise the complaint won't be treated.

WTF is wrong with these people? Hamas dudes: stop sending shitty rockets to stupid meaningless Israeli villages. Israel: stop being such a fucking lowlife country.

I don't get this. Preventing the Red Cross from treating wounded children whos mothers have been killed.

[Phalanx]

The same thing happened to me after that particular bombing (or shelling, whatever it was). It was some Israeli diplomat and all he did for me was make me, for the first time in my life, curse the jews. I quickly recanted as it was a stupid, childish thing to say but goddamn that diplomat I saw trying to explain that bombing got under my skin.

Why is it so hard just to say "We made a horrible mistake which we deeply regret. We are, however, going to continue the fight and do everything possible to avoid this type of horrific event from occuring again."

I still would have disagreed with his statement, but at least then he wouldn't have sounded like a demon sent from hell.

Didn't you join the navy? If so, how can you feel like you've got a right to criticize Israel with the happenings in Iraq and Afghanistan?

[Wanted Man]

And ofcourse the terroists will win the propaganda war because the Israeli attacks will always result in civilian casualties due to the Hamas tactic of hiding amongst civilians. Using civilian shields, which is a war crime.


Lie #3) Hamas is using human shields, a war crime.
There has been no evidence that Hamas has used human shields. The fact is, as previously noted, Gaza is a small piece of property that is densely populated. Israel engages in indiscriminate warfare such as the assassination of Nizar Rayan, in which members of his family were also murdered. It is victims like his dead children that Israel defines as “human shields” in its propaganda. There is no legitimacy for this interpretation under international law. In circumstances such as these, Hamas is not using human shields, Israel is committing war crimes in violation of the Geneva Conventions and other applicable international law.


http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/top-5-lies-about-israel%E2%80%99s-assault-on-gaza/

[danyboy27]

its just a fucking shame that nobody care about the civilians.

anyway, if somebody interrested there is a protest organized in quebec city saturday 1 :00 pm

dont worry i wont be there, since its more a pro-hamas thing rather than a pro peace manifestation.

[danyboy27]

Didn't you join the navy? If so, how can you feel like you've got a right to criticize Israel with the happenings in Iraq and Afghanistan?

people dont necessarly join militaryorganization beccause they are brainwashed assole that weant to defend freedom and all that stuff, like people dont necessarly work in a grocery beccause they love that.

he got all right to ctriticize his military if he want to.

beside, you dont have any clue of his job in the navy, he could be a mechanic or a non combattant personnel.

[redguard2009]

Israel has bombed one school and apparently shelled another in Gaza. They've also shelled and bombs UN aid convoys which has forced the UN to halt aid work in Gaza temporarily. Like in Lebanon they are going after the economic and political infastructure of the entire Gaza Strip, hitting electricity and water works, depriving millions of water and electricity, have hit bridges, schools, government offices.

And the majority of people in the West don't give a damn. At all.

[danyboy27]

Israel has bombed one school and apparently shelled another in Gaza. They've also shelled and bombs UN aid convoys which has forced the UN to halt aid work in Gaza temporarily. Like in Lebanon they are going after the economic and political infastructure of the entire Gaza Strip, hitting electricity and water works, depriving millions of water and electricity, have hit bridges, schools, government offices.

And the majority of people in the West don't give a damn. At all.


well, i do, that a start

[RGacky3]

And the majority of people in the West don't give a damn. At all.

And thats absolutely fine, as long as they don't give a damn about suicide bombers in Isreal either.

One of the mindsets I hate the most is hypocracy and double standards, which is, unfortunately abundunt in the west when it comes to the Isreali-palestinian conflict.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Didn't you join the navy? If so, how can you feel like you've got a right to criticize Israel with the happenings in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Don't you pay taxes? How can you criticize Israel when your dollars prop up the imperial power?

Seriously, though, I joined the navy to avoid both of those shitholes.

And just to go a step further, the US has already agreed to have every soldier out of Iraq by 2012, so that's nothing like the occupation under Israel which has lasted for 50 years.

As for Afghanistan, well, in case you don't recall, they attacked civilian targets over here and I don't mind the US making sure anybody who joins AQ or the Taliban is dead. My biggest complaint is where not doing a good enough job at it.

edit: one other thing. If you're living in the US and you're not Native American, the land you are living is available to you because we butchered, raped, robbed, and generally removed the original inhabitants. With that in mind, how can someone living in the US criticize Israel? Compared to what our 'forefathers' did I'd say the Israeli's look rather humanitarian.

[RGacky3]

As for Afghanistan, well, in case you don't recall, they attacked civilian targets over here and I don't mind the US making sure anybody who joins AQ or the Taliban is dead.

Most of the attackers were Saudi Nationals, also with that mindset Cuba has the perfect right to bomb and attack the united states (for harboring terrorists).

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Most of the attackers were Saudi Nationals, also with that mindset Cuba has the perfect right to bomb and attack the united states (for harboring terrorists).

You're right that's a very good point, though I wouldn't recommend it. Might is Right. Not to say that I support a never-ending war or killing everyone in the region, but a policy which results in an anti-Extremist government being in place (I could care less if they grow poppys or not).

[RGacky3]

Might is Right.

Might is might, Right is right. Moral consistancy is right.

[Phalanx]

Don't you pay taxes? How can you criticize Israel when your dollars prop up the imperial power?

Seriously, though, I joined the navy to avoid both of those shitholes.

And just to go a step further, the US has already agreed to have every soldier out of Iraq by 2012, so that's nothing like the occupation under Israel which has lasted for 50 years.

As for Afghanistan, well, in case you don't recall, they attacked civilian targets over here and I don't mind the US making sure anybody who joins AQ or the Taliban is dead. My biggest complaint is where not doing a good enough job at it.

edit: one other thing. If you're living in the US and you're not Native American, the land you are living is available to you because we butchered, raped, robbed, and generally removed the original inhabitants. With that in mind, how can someone living in the US criticize Israel? Compared to what our 'forefathers' did I'd say the Israeli's look rather humanitarian.

The difference is I don't actively support imperialist powers. By joining the navy, you directly support the edge of the sword. And also, Israel hasn't been responsible for 1+ million Palestinian dead, while the US managed that in six years in Iraq.

As for Afghanistan, yeah, the Taliban needs to be destroyed.

And you could make the Native American argument for most countries on earth, eg England with the Celts vs. Anglo-Saxons, the Japanese against the Ainu, Maori in New Zealand, blah blah blah.

And I remain neutral on the Mideast conflict. While I do have opinions, it's a joke to declare solidarity with a cause online.