Finland expells two Somalis who had committed crime

[S. Zetor]

Finnish high court decided today that two young Somalis who have committed a series of crimes (thievery, armed robbery etc.) can be legally expelled from the country and returned to Somalia.

The men moved to Finland when they were about 10 years old, and have lived over half of their lives here. The ruling said that because the men had no existing social connections in Finland, it's better that they be expelled. A third man with the same kind of background would have been expelled as well, but it was not considered ok to expell him because he had never lived in Somalia. Talk about consideration!

If there is anything good to be had from this decision, it is the potential of the decision to reveal the rotten chauvinist elements in the so-called tolerant green-left circles.

In the main Finnish news broadcast today 20:30, the leader of the Somali league of Finland said that expelling the men is not a good decision. That is a brave statement in the prevailing atmosphere, when in the last municipal elections this autumn an out-and-out nazionalist made it to the Helsinki municipal council.

Contrary to this, the Green ex-minister for development cooperation, Pekka Haavisto, practically wished the men bon voyage back to where they came from. "They should be told that there law in Somalia, despite everything", he quipped.

I'm extremely curious to see how many "green" and "left" elements reveal a filthy chauvinist under the tolerant gloss they wear.

This racist decision brings it totally into the open that it's ok and legal to have A and B class citizens in a formal way too, like in an apartheid society. It turns out that the chauvinists' favourite saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" doesn't apply to the native population at all: the natives can rob, steal, rape, whatever, but people of foreign origin have to behave. "Our country, our way!"

EDIT: Btw this court decision was important, because it was the first of its kind in the highest administratorial court (nationally) and thus sets the precedent for people to be expelled from the country in the future, too.

[Wanted Man]

Oh yeah, sounds familiar. A lot of right-wingers here also want to deport immigrants of Moroccan origin back to Morocco if they commit a crime. At least the "green left" here still opposes it, but apparently in other countries they are not bothered by these considerations anymore.

Is there any kind of left alternative in Finland?

[Pogue]

Disgusting. No borders, no nations, stop deportations!

[S. Zetor]

Is there any kind of left alternative in Finland?

Offtopic, but here goes.. if somebody wants to continue, maybe start another thread somewhere else..

It all depends on what you mean by "left alternative" :-)

Left Alliance has 17 MPs (out of 200), they're basically a left-wing social-democratic group. There's some good people there, though as a party they're not very good. As regards this somali decision, I'm not confident that they will renounce it, though I think it's possible they do and I'm positively surprised if they do. But I suspect they will have split opinions on it, just like the Greens will (the Greens have 15 MPs).

The Communist Party of Finland (SKP) gets a steady and dwindling support of 1 % in national elections. No MPs, though several representatives in some municipal councils. I used to be a member a few years ago, though not anymore.

Also the Left Alliance has a slowly dwindling support, whereas the Greens are gaining little by little. They're taking part in a bourgeois government right now, with the conservatives and Central Party.

[Dimentio]

I sometimes feel that all violent, unrepentent criminals, no matter their origin, should be expelled to Somalia. They obviously want to live in a chaotic society where the gun is the law. Well, then they should have their shot at it.

I seriously think that if someone for example rapes women or commit armed robberies and intrusions in the apartments of people, repeated times after initial rehabilitation attempts, that they should be deprived of their citizenship.

You may think that is a swine-ish thing to say, but my sympathies lie with the working people - no matter what origin they have.

Criminals are just an example of capitalist mentality. They have the predatory instinct to exploit others, but no manipulative talent, so they resort to crime.

[bcbm]

commit armed robberies and intrusions in the apartments of people

What if its an armed robbery of a bank, or an intrusion into a bourgeois apartment?


Criminals are just an example of capitalist mentality

Some of us are just trying to get by. Not all criminality is predatory in the sense you mean.

[S. Zetor]

I think me and Serpent have a different emphasis on the national question and imperialism, as per immigrants and crime.

It is no wonder if people leave their homelands in search of a better life. They do that within Finland, as people move to the centers in the south from the withering areas of the North and East where unemployment is high and services cut down.

It is a form of imperialist privilege that their EU passport allows them to do that, but for people without it there's no such possibility. In a world defined by imperialism, citizenship and thus any deprivation of citizenship means granting or depriving a person of imperialist privilege.

When Serpent says "no matter their origin", I think he (depending on which tradition he comes from) falls into the classic Luxemburgian / Bukharinist / ultraleft denial of the national question, and fails to see the imperialist privilege of Finnishness/whiteness that is obvious in the case at hand.

A Finnish citizen will never be expelled from the country, no matter what punishment he/she has been given or what the crime has been he/she has been found guilty of. But a person without the protection of Finnish citizenship, even if they have lived in the country more than half of their lives, does not have this privilege.

It is a fact that the most likely person to commit murder in Finland is an unemployed man of 35-45 years of age with a working class background (i.e. manual labour, little education etc.) But I haven't heard demands that they should be put under special surveillance (of the police type) so that they can be stopped from murdering.

Kids who get their secondary education in vocational schools are much more likely to commit more crime than their peers who are heading for higher education.

Immigrants of Finnish background from Sweden are three times as likely to commit crime as the general Finnish population.

But it seems only the social group "immigrants" are targeted for police type measures, very much like "civilised" bourgeoisie tried to stop cripples, insane and poor people from having too much children with all kinds of eugenic policies. (The last sterilisations in Finland on eugenic grounds were in the 70s, over a hundred people.)

It is my contention that the Finnishness of these working class murderers and other criminals protects them from the same kind of treatment that is reserved for immigrants, in the prevailing nationalist atmosphere. The former get targeted with social policies and rehabilitation, whereas immigrants are just seen as a bottomless well that will swallow the honest taxpayers' money, our money. It never enters the picture that most immigrants never commit any crime, it is enough that they are more likely to do it than "the average population".. and of course these two populations are not comparable in terms of age, gender, socioeconomic position division etc.

Crime is an issue that calls for more humane social policies, though it does call for punishment too (and, lest it be forgotten, a socialist revolution and work for everybody :-). But measures tailored on a discriminatory basis such as this fresh court verdict, to defend imperialist privilege, are something that must not be tolerated.

It is no wonder that people leave their homelands in search of a better life. It is good for several reasons if people are not made to feel forced to leave, but if they do leave, they have all the right to do so. The prevailing gaps in living standards in the world are upheld by economic and military imperialism, and these immigrants from poorer, oppressed countries are trying to break through that barrier. We should defend them.

[dso79]

I don't think expelling these criminals is such a bad idea. Only a small number of immigrants commit crimes, but they make the whole community look bad. Their behaviour leads to tensions between immigrants and the native population, and increased support for right-wing anti-immigrant parties.

Removing the rotten apples can bring the different communities closer together.

[OneNamedNameLess]

Hmm, thievery and armed robbery.

"Our country, our way." Yes, no fucking armed robbery or thievery for the stability of society.

Thanks for your attack on the green left :)

[Dimentio]

What if its an armed robbery of a bank, or an intrusion into a bourgeois apartment?



Some of us are just trying to get by. Not all criminality is predatory in the sense you mean.

No I know. But the thing in Sweden (I don't know in Finland) is that no one really need to commit any crime to survive. There is social aid, and there is guaranteed housing. The only social group which is entirely outside of the system is the mentally sick people who were thrown out on the street and given old apartment when Persson screwed the psychiatric care system.

The rationale behind organised crime is often perpetuated by persons who want to gain capital in order to become capitalists. Many former drug lords and bank robberers in the 80;s and 90;s nowadays own night clubs and pubs, as well as companies. They are not anti-capitalist per definition.

I think that the glorification of crime is as stupid as glorification of individual terrorism. Especially as those who are most affected by crime are the working class who are living at crime-ridden low-income areas.

One of the reasons that even lots of Non-European immigrants are voting for racist parties(!) in some nations is because of organised crime. And now we are not talking wealthy people, but ordinary workers and unemployed, who just want to secure their own life and the lives of their children.

I became really upset when a Croatian girl who lived here in Sweden with her abusive father and had got a protected apartment suddenly was to be deported back to Croatia with her father.

The same with the Palestinian ten-year old, who was to be deported to the West Bank.

That enraged me a lot.

But I have a hard time bringing up any feelings of sympathy towards the plight of killers.

It reminds me of the Mehdi Tayeb case. He was a guy who had tried to infect hundreds of women from several countries with HIV. He was a Swedish and Iranian citizen, and first hunted in Sweden.

Eventually, the Iranian police arrested him, and he was about to be sentenced to hanging in Iran. The Swedish government wanted him back to Sweden to sit off his sentence here, which was about 15 years in jail. There were people who thought it was inhumane to let him await the sentence in Iran, and wanted to "save" him by taking him to Sweden.

I don't believe in death sentences, but I don't pity people who are ready to infect and rape women, no matter their nationality.

[Dimentio]

I don't think expelling these criminals is such a bad idea. Only a small number of immigrants commit crimes, but they make the whole community look bad. Their behaviour leads to tensions between immigrants and the native population, and increased support for right-wing anti-immigrant parties.

Removing the rotten apples can bring the different communities closer together.

I think that repeated armed robberies and thieveries should mean automatic expulsion, form wherever you are.

[butterfly]

I think that repeated armed robberies and thieveries should mean automatic expulsion, form wherever you are.:confused: Really?

[Dimentio]

:confused: Really?

Yes. I don't discriminate at least.

As I earlier stated, the goal of criminality tend to be to either gain respect by your friends or to gain capital. Neither of those aspects sounds very progressive.

I have always seen organised crime as "the capitalism of the lumpens".

[butterfly]

The goal of robberies and thefts though, in particular, and only through my own experience do I come to this conclusion, are usually and indication of an incredibly poor social and economic environment.
I see people who resort to commiting these crimes as the lumpen victims of capitalism.

[Killfacer]

What would you have the government do?

[bcbm]

I think that repeated armed robberies and thieveries should mean automatic expulsion, form wherever you are.

So Swedes would be expelled to... Sweden? :confused:


The rationale behind organised crime is often perpetuated by persons who want to gain capital in order to become capitalists. Many former drug lords and bank robberers in the 80;s and 90;s nowadays own night clubs and pubs, as well as companies. They are not anti-capitalist per definition.

And nobody else works to become capitalists themselves? That's the "dream" of capitalist society, after all.


I think that the glorification of crime is as stupid as glorification of individual terrorism. Especially as those who are most affected by crime are the working class who are living at crime-ridden low-income areas.

Nobody is glorifying crime. Living off of crime sucks in many ways. But you're also ignoring why crime occurs and seem to believe that simply punishing people will be enough?

[S. Zetor]

What would you have the government do?

(In case this question is addressed to me, I'll answer. If not, sorry.)

Concerning these individuals, they should be treated the same as Finnish criminals (how Finland treats criminals in general is a different question which I can't answer for lack of knowledge) . If they keep committing crime after doing time - like many people do - they should be punished accordingly, just like Finnish criminals are.

I'm no expert on rehabilitation or social policies concerning inmates, so I have to pass judgement on that. Some people may indeed be totally wicked even, ones that will never "mend their ways". I don't have good answers for what to do with them. What I do know though is that at the moment these Somali men are selected for unequal treatment based on their not having a Finnish citizenship.

It is their bourgeois democratic right to be treated like other people here. They're right inside Finnish jurisdiction, so IMO there can be no other than chauvinistic excuses for not granting them this equal treatment.

Someone brought in the question of organised crime etc. As regards these two Somalis, a reprentative selection of their recurring crime is:
- petty theft, shoplifting (or attempts)
- robberies (some of them using a knife to threaten, which makes it "armed robbery" and "violent crime")
- drug abuse
- assaults
- resisting police
- violating public order

My verdict is that this is not a laundry list of crimes committed by a person who has been successful in life (or in crime, for that matter). Quite the contrary. The typical robbery where an immigrant is the robber (might also apply to natives) happens on the street, where the loot is typically whatever money the victims had on them, plus a mobile telephone. The assaults are most often connected to brawls in restaurants or other public places (quite likely sparked off by racist abuse).

This is not "organised crime", but more likely an attampt to make ends meet when you're unemployed, young, perhaps using drugs and feel discriminated against. If these guys were leaders of the Finnish branch of some international criminal organisation, the issue would be totally different.

[Luís Henrique]

I sometimes feel that all violent, unrepentent criminals, no matter their origin, should be expelled to Somalia.

What a colonialist thing to say. So you do think that Somalia is some kind of human garbage basket for First World criminals? What would you think if other countries decided to export their criminals to Sweden? And do you believe that Somalia became what it became with absolutely no involvement from First World countries?

Sheesh.

Luís Henrique

[Killfacer]

What a colonialist thing to say. So you do think that Somalia is some kind of human garbage basket for First World criminals? What would you think if other countries decided to export their criminals to Sweden? And do you believe that Somalia became what it became with absolutely no involvement from First World countries?

Sheesh.

Luís Henrique

I think he was joking...

[bcbm]

But he went on to elaborate and defend those remarks.

[Dimentio]

So Swedes would be expelled to... Sweden? :confused:



And nobody else works to become capitalists themselves? That's the "dream" of capitalist society, after all.



Nobody is glorifying crime. Living off of crime sucks in many ways. But you're also ignoring why crime occurs and seem to believe that simply punishing people will be enough?

No, to Devil's Island. :D

I believe that most crime is caused by a poor social environment, but there is a certain variant of crime which is anti-social and rather caused by genetical variations or mental diseases like psychopathy.

[MarxSchmarx]

Concerning these individuals, they should be treated the same as Finnish criminals (how Finland treats criminals in general is a different question which I can't answer for lack of knowledge) . If they keep committing crime after doing time - like many people do - they should be punished accordingly, just like Finnish criminals are.

I'm no expert on rehabilitation or social policies concerning inmates, so I have to pass judgement on that. Some people may indeed be totally wicked even, ones that will never "mend their ways". I don't have good answers for what to do with them. What I do know though is that at the moment these Somali men are selected for unequal treatment based on their not having a Finnish citizenship.

It is their bourgeois democratic right to be treated like other people here. They're right inside Finnish jurisdiction, so IMO there can be no other than chauvinistic excuses for not granting them this equal treatment.
As I read your posts, essentially what you are saying is that we should do away with citizenship and immigration laws.

Which is all well and good. I think appealing to other bourgeois rights, though, has its limits.

The difficulty with this analysis is that citizenship per se is also a very unique and sacrosanct right within bourgeois society - indeed, the notion is not coincidentally as old as capitalist society itself.

There will always be close calls within a bourgeois framework, like how to allow for naturalization, who can bequeath citizenship to their kids, why these people. Including this case.

I don't think it would be such an issue if, for example, a Ukranian came to Finland on a sight-seeing tour, stole a lot of money, and got deported. Nobody will raise much of a fuss about that. I think that is just as unjust, but as of now, most people believe citizenship is something special and countries have a right to decide who can and can't live within their borders.

The real issue here is that despite being in Finland since the age of 10, these people didn't acquire Finnish citizenship. They probably didn't get naturalized because I imagine Finland has onerous laws in that department. But, if not and Finland has very generous naturalization laws, then their omission is unfortunate but this is one of the consequences of their carelessness. Not that I endorse it, only that it's harder to get people riled up about it. In any event, the difficulty of obtaining citizenship for someone who is effectively a Finn, and not citizenship or nationality laws per se, should be the focus of activism around the court decision. Once you clear that hurdle, you can start going after nationality laws.

[Akim]

I dont see any problem with this. You cant just come here and do whatever you want , no matter how miserable and poor your background is. If these guys were just junkies , then it would have been wrong to deport them.

but since they commited violent crimes frequently as I understood , they dont have much to complain. I am pretty sure the goverment paid them some wellfare or atleast for the education since they were living in Finland since the age of 10.
All this care and what do they do rob! Wheres the respect? Damn right they deserved to be exported back to Somalia.

[butterfly]

They bloody well have the same rights as anyone else would in such a situation, regardless of where they were born. Get over yourself.

[Revolutionary Pseudonym]

Lol at the Stormfront thread on this thread. :blink:

[Calmwinds]

Being poor is not the only reason crime is done. There are many poor people that manage to live good honest lives without robbing people. There seems that there is a romantic view of crime that leads to an apologism and victimization among the left. Robbing banks and such should still be considered crime because of the extreme risk presented to other civilians.

Socialists are against crime too.

[the last donut of the night]

I sometimes feel that all violent, unrepentent criminals, no matter their origin, should be expelled to Somalia. They obviously want to live in a chaotic society where the gun is the law. Well, then they should have their shot at it.

I seriously think that if someone for example rapes women or commit armed robberies and intrusions in the apartments of people, repeated times after initial rehabilitation attempts, that they should be deprived of their citizenship.

You may think that is a swine-ish thing to say, but my sympathies lie with the working people - no matter what origin they have.

Criminals are just an example of capitalist mentality. They have the predatory instinct to exploit others, but no manipulative talent, so they resort to crime.

Uhm....what?