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KC
23rd December 2008, 05:43
Considering the fact that every once in a while we get some conspiracy nuts on here that believe that WTC7 was a controlled demolition, I figured I'd post a damning refutation of this theory that I posted on another forum:

__________________________________________________

What caused these failures? From wikipedia:

"Consistent with this theory, news footage shows cracking and bowing of the building's east wall immediately before the collapse, which began at the penthouse floors.[3] In video of the collapse, taken from the north by CBS News and other news media, the first visible sign of collapse is movement in the east penthouse 8.2 seconds before the north wall began to collapse, which took at least another 7 seconds.[3][43]

The working hypothesis, released in the June 2004 progress report and reiterated in a June 2007 status update, was that an initial failure in a critical column occurred below the 13th floor, caused by damage from fire and/or debris from the collapse of the two main towers. The collapse progressed vertically up to the east mechanical penthouse. The interior structure was unable to handle the redistributed load, resulting in horizontal progression of the failure across lower floors, particularly the 5th to 7th floors. This resulted in "a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure."[40][44][3]"

There is also photographic and video evidence to back up this explanation. For example, here is a photo of the 10-story gash in the south side of the building:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4c/Abcnews-wtc7damage.jpg

Here's some information on the structural strength of steel as a result of temperature. I'm going to make the presumption right here that, since I don't know the specific type of steel or specific type of beams/trusses used in WTC7, these results aren't going to be completely accurate.

Anyways, here's a graph I actually found on a 911 truth site which actually can be used against their own claims.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/fires/docs/strengthcurve.jpg
Source (http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/fires/steel.html)



As can be seen, even if the temperature is only 500 Fahrenheit, the strength of the steel is lowered by 40 percent. This alone could be used as proof or at least validation of the running hypothesis that fires within the building that were able to run rampant due to a malfunctioning sprinkler system and the inability of fire fighters to fight the fire due to low water pressure caused the building to collapse.

Now, they make numerous claims on this site that I'll address as well, for anyone ignorant enough to attempt to present them here (I realize that they are talking about the twin towers, but I've heard identical arguments used against the collapse of WTC7).

First, they cite the following from FEMA's World Trade Center Building Performance Study:

"In the mid-1990s British Steel and the Building Research Establishment performed a series of six experiments at Cardington to investigate the behavior of steel frame buildings. These experiments were conducted in a simulated, eight-story building. Secondary steel beams were not protected. Despite the temperature of the steel beams reaching 800-900° C (1,500-1,700° F) in three of the tests (well above the traditionally assumed critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F), no collapse was observed in any of the six experiments)."

What isn't taken into consideration here is the fact that these results can vary drastically due to the design of the building. This can't apply to WTC7, for example, because of how the loads within the building were transferred to the outer load-bearing columns. Also, the buildings we are discussing were much taller than eight stories. So given the unique design and the height of the buildings, this is an ineligible criticism.


* High-rise buildings are over-engineered to have strength many times greater than would needed to survive the most extreme conditions anticipated. It may take well over a ten-fold reduction in strength to cause a structural failure.

Buildings are generally engineered to a Factor of Safety of 3, sometimes 4 and (rarely) 5. This means that they are engineered to hold 3/4/5 times the allowable load (q all = q ult / FS). Since the load was distributed evenly over these outer columns, when one of these columns fails it will cause the shifting load to redistribute to adjacent columns, which would exceed the designed load (using the FS). This would in turn cause those columns to collapse, and so on until the entire structure has been demolished.

This is also why their following bullet ("If a steel structure does experience a collapse due to extreme temperatures, the collapse tends to remain localized to the area that experienced the high temperatures.") is false. The collapse of one column is localized to the area of that column and adjacent columns, which in turn causes those columns to buckle and collapse, which is localized in the area of those columns and their respective adjacent columns, etc... This is called a progressive collapse, and can happen seemingly instantaneously.

Here is some more accurate/professional/sourced data regarding the strength of steel related to temperature (ironically I found this data through a link from the truther website that I got the previous graph from):

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/fig-A-5.gif



This is a typical set of stress/strain graphs. If you're a freshman in an engineering curriculum you will recognize it right away. What this graph shows is the ultimate strength for ASTM A36 steel (a common structural steel). We can determine from this graph the yield strength of the steel. For example, at 600 Celsius the yield strength of this steel is about 20 kips per square inch (20,000 pounds per square inch) (the yield strength (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_strength) is the point where deformation goes from elastic to plastic, point 4 on this graph (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Metal_yield.svg). Elastic deformation is basically the deformation of say a bar of steel where, when the load is removed, it will return to its original position, whereas plastic deformation is where it is permanently deformed. Because of this, steel design uses the yield point on top of a Factor of Safety to prevent any plastic deformation and/or buckling (failure)).

It's quite clear how significant of a role temperature plays in the yield strength of steel (and all materials). The increased temperatures caused one of the load-bearing columns to fail, which caused a progressive collapse. This is very basic structural engineering.

Since it's too late to edit my last post, I'd just like to clarify something. The first graph posted from the truther site is actually the Strength Reduction Factor vs. Temperature. Here is a graph from the same FEMA report that I got the second graph from:

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/fig-A-8.gif


This graph is used, then, to find the strength reduction factor given a temperature. You can then multiply the strength of the steel at room temperature by the strength reduction (retention) factor to get the strength at the temperature originally input.

The original stress/strain graph was labelled incorrectly as well; the first line should be at room temperature (20 C) and the second is at 200 C, as strength decreases with an increase in temperature.

Also, regarding the Alfred P. Murrah building: I haven't looked into how the building was designed, but from the photograph posted by Chanda (reposted below) I'm about 90% sure that it was designed using a mat foundation with the vertical columns seen in the photo bearing the load of the building.

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2000/04/14/image184221x.jpg


As we can see, where these columns were compromised the building collapsed. This is completely clear by just looking at the above photo; you can basically trace an outline around where the collapse is based on the remaining columns.

So why didn't a progressive collapse occur in the Alfred P. Murrah building? Assuming that I am correct about the design, the loads were transferred much more evenly over the building, meaning that each column carried much less load. Designed even just based on a FS of 3 (the smallest commonly used Factor of Safety), the collapse of these columns then transferred much smaller loads to the remaining columns, which were able to handle the additional loads and thus prevented collapse anywhere where the columns weren't directly compromised.

_________________________________________________

So next time someone tries to make this ridiculous claim, tell them they have no idea what they're talking about and are a moron, and maybe slap them in the face, then proceed to completely annihilate everything they have claimed.:laugh:

jake williams
23rd December 2008, 06:43
I support factual refutation of conspiracy theories. I think there are a substantial number of conspiracy theorists who are honestly making the best judgement they can with a limited knowledge of the specifics of science or geopolitics or whatever involved, and further that this is reinforced by no one willing to actually counter their arguments.

KC
23rd December 2008, 06:48
Some additional info:

The notion that steel-framed buildings have never collapsed due to fire is completely false. If you google "buildings that have collapsed due to fire" you get numerous examples, of which I am not going to link, but this report (http://www.haifire.com/presentations/Historical_Collapse_Survey.pdf) summarizes a few dozen examples from 1950 to the present.

Here's (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hereford/worcs/6105942.stm) another example.

And like I said, there's many more (http://www.google.com/search?q=buildings+that+have+collapsed+due+to+fire&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a).

Killfacer
23rd December 2008, 12:21
BRAVO! have some rep.

Rascolnikova
23rd December 2008, 12:46
I hesitate to get involved here for a few reasons:

-I don't care if 9/11 was an inside job. At all. I believe my government ethically capable of almost anything; if for some reason it made a lot of sense for them to do so, I wouldn't put it past them to blow up a bunch of American civilians. This is true regardless of what did or didn't happen on 9/11, reducing the importance of the matter to a single historical question of practicalities. This doesn't seem worth a lot of my time.

-9/11 conspiracy scientists annoy me deeply. I went to a physics colloquium this semester, given by one. His science looked good, but he was acting like a nut job. He should have been saying "Look. Here's evidence. Isn't that interesting?" and behaving every inch the credible scientist. Instead he was off about how he didn't see any other explanation for it than some horrible suspicious etcetera. ..

-I don't care remotely enough about this to get extensively familiar with the details, particularly in this type of debate--always "conspiracy theorists are stupid" vs. "there's a big important conspiracy." Drives me up the wall.


That said, the acceleration of the building collapse, as documented on film, was very close to gravity (9.8ish m/s^2). I haven't seen anything yet, including your little refutation, that explains why that should be the case. . . the steel would practically have to be water, and instantaneously so. Even steel the strength of silly putty wouldn't justify a free fall.


To be clear: I am not a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. I don't give a shit about their cause, at all. I do think there are some interesting science/engineering questions involved, and yes, some of them are unresolved.

*shrugs*

anyway, y'all kids have fun.

KC
23rd December 2008, 14:55
That said, the acceleration of the building collapse, as documented on film, was very close to gravity (9.8ish m/s^2). I haven't seen anything yet, including your little refutation, that explains why that should be the case. . . the steel would practically have to be water, and instantaneously so. Even steel the strength of silly putty wouldn't justify a free fall.This was, of course, the next thing that the truther that I was debating with claimed. Here is my response:

"As I have said earlier, progressive collapse can happen seemingly instantaneously, with failure spreading throughout the entire structure in seconds or even fractions of a second. This can cause collapse at near-free-fall speeds.

Now, to address the actual issue here. The WTC buildings were not unique in the sense that they collapsed at near-free-fall speeds. Many truthers also recognize this. There have been other documented cases where buildings have collapsed at such speeds, and I'm not talking about planned demolitions, either. Of course, I just have to name one to completely discount the notion that it "never happened" so I'll save myself some time and do that.

L'Ambiance Plaza was a 16 story residential project in Connecticut that collapsed in 5 seconds, 2.5 seconds slower than free-fall speeds."


Generally truthers have little to no concept of engineering knowhow. Their arguments are incredibly dumb, and can easily be refuted by first-semester engineering concepts (as I showed above).

danyboy27
23rd December 2008, 15:05
nice post. i fucking hate conspiracy tehorist.

the only conspiracy i believe in is about the kennedy shooting.

the official version just dosnt make sense, 1 guy shooting from all that angle, alone with a shitty italian carbine?

Brother No. 1
23rd December 2008, 15:40
But kennendy shooting was only one guy remember comrade that when kennedy whas hit the head some of his parts went everywhere and that happens if you shoot something like that and if the shooter was a side angle of the car then mrs Kennedy would have died as well and if the 2 shooter was in front then he would have no shot with out killing the govenor first

Skin_HeadBanger
23rd December 2008, 16:13
I personally think that conspiracy theorists that say shit like this are on (maybe not the same, but) an extremely similar level to those who deny the holocaust.

Because,you know, the government wanted to take out its own economy.:rolleyes:

Brother No. 1
23rd December 2008, 16:18
the Conspiary theroist are just always blabing becuase they dont want to face the truth like the capitalist they dont want to gace the truth that communism is better for the people

benhur
23rd December 2008, 16:20
Conspiracy theories are stupid, therefore, we must all believe the official govt. version without questioning. After all, no govt. would ever lie to the people, right? Govts. are honest, and always give a truthful account of what happened.

KC
23rd December 2008, 16:23
Conspiracy theories are stupid, therefore, we must all believe the official govt. version without questioning. After all, no govt. would ever lie to the people, right? Govts. are honest, and always give a truthful account of what happened.Yes, if you question conspiracy theorists you must be a supporter of the government.:rolleyes:

God you Trots are stupid.

Brother No. 1
23rd December 2008, 16:27
well that is not really true for we all know that the USA goverment has lied to its people like saying it does not own china trilloions of dollars or the causlties of the Iraq war and lets not forget they dont tell them why a lot of forineers come to america for Vaction it is because it is very cheap to go there

Jazzratt
23rd December 2008, 16:50
Conspiracy theories are stupid, therefore, we must all believe the official govt. version without questioning. After all, no govt. would ever lie to the people, right? Govts. are honest, and always give a truthful account of what happened.

The government's conspiracy was one of deliberate negligence. They knew various groups were targeting america and they knew this would give them an excuse to engage in some military imperialism; all they had to do was sit tight, wait and just let an attack like this happen. Governments are malicious liars but they aren't fucking stupid - and you'd have to be a goddamned moron to give yourself a punch in the nuts like this.

So, no, one shouldn't accept without question the accounts of governments but no one is suggesting that - but as you can see a few moments of thinking critically about the events proves that government accounts of what physically happened are true. Whether you wish to believe they wished to or were trying to prevent it is another matter of course.

Conspiracy theories are always needlessly complex and add too many variables and entities to events. I suspect the theorists would make particularly crap governmental leaders as they seem to have no idea how to work a proper conspiracy; here's a hint, you don't need back room deals when it can all be done in the open in the boardrooms.

Rascolnikova
23rd December 2008, 20:56
L'Ambiance Plaza was a 16 story residential project in Connecticut that collapsed in 5 seconds, 2.5 seconds slower than free-fall speeds."

Speaking of engineering knowhow, the quantity in question is acceleration, not speed, and 2.5 seconds in the case you just cited seems to represent a doubling of the time in question, no?


Let's first look at the case of free fall. I'll make s(initial) the top of the building and down (+). I'm assuming an initial velocity of 0, so the v=gt, and the s=(gt^2)/2+s(0). I'm also presuming that collapse time represents the time it takes the otherwise un-accelerated top of the building to hit the pile of rubble, which I'm approximating with the ground.

If the collapse in free fall takes 2.5 seconds, the height of the building is (9.8*2.5^2)/2=(9.8*6.25)/2=61.25/2=30.625 meters. A collapse time of 5 seconds, presuming free fall, indicates a building four times this height, over 120 meters.


I have no problem with you debunking 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Have at it. I believe there could be other building collapses as fast--you may well be right.


But if you are going to do this, get some fucking numeracy. Please. And if there are good arguments out there (a possibility I'm not even slightly adverse to), kindly use them.




Generally truthers have little to no concept of engineering knowhow.Especially if you're going to make lovely little ad-hominems like this. I don't see how your response above demonstrated any grasp of first semester engineering concepts.

Bear in mind also that as nutjob as most of these folks behave, there are half a dozen papers out there in mainstream peer-reviewed journals on these topics. That means there are a very decent number of people out there who see these as interesting problems who do, in fact, have a substantive grasp of engineering.

TheCultofAbeLincoln
23rd December 2008, 22:40
But kennendy shooting was only one guy remember comrade that when kennedy whas hit the head some of his parts went everywhere and that happens if you shoot something like that and if the shooter was a side angle of the car then mrs Kennedy would have died as well and if the 2 shooter was in front then he would have no shot with out killing the govenor first

So you're saying that Lee fired off two shots in the 4 second he would have had (one of which hit both the President and the Governor) with a bolt-action rifle?

Brother No. 1
23rd December 2008, 22:53
yes for if you look at the 2 posisions and reanacted it from all the angles that those 2 consiproisy ones would be inacure it and cause something to not happen but my point still stands that the consiracy of Jhon F kennedy is false and even the comrades from the soviet union came to his funerals but did they come to ours no they did not

revolution inaction
23rd December 2008, 23:28
Speaking of engineering knowhow, the quantity in question is acceleration, not speed, and 2.5 seconds in the case you just cited seems to represent a doubling of the time in question, no?


Let's first look at the case of free fall. I'll make s(initial) the top of the building and down (+). I'm assuming an initial velocity of 0, so the v=gt, and the s=(gt^2)/2+s(0). I'm also presuming that collapse time represents the time it takes the otherwise un-accelerated top of the building to hit the pile of rubble, which I'm approximating with the ground.

If the collapse in free fall takes 2.5 seconds, the height of the building is (9.8*2.5^2)/2=(9.8*6.25)/2=61.25/2=30.625 meters. A collapse time of 5 seconds, presuming free fall, indicates a building four times this height, over 120 meters.


what the fuck are you talking about?
the building did not collapse in free fall



Especially if you're going to make lovely little ad-hominems like this. I don't see how your response above demonstrated any grasp of first semester engineering concepts.

how is is ad-hominem?

Rascolnikova
24th December 2008, 01:11
what the fuck are you talking about?
the building did not collapse in free fall

see, there we go. This is an articulate, empirical, and persuasive argument that I can clearly take much more seriously than the film footage that was presented to me in my university classroom.


. . .ok, so it's unsubstantiated, but at least it's coherent.



how is is ad-hominem?

Quote:
Generally truthers have little to no concept of engineering knowhow.

How is it not?

Yes, I get it. Most of the people who defend conspiracy theories are stupid people on the internet who have no clue what they're talking about. However, in this particular case, there is a strong core of "truthers" who definitely have a "concept of engineering knowhow"--and merely act like they're stupid people on the internet who have no clue what they're talking about.

But the fact that this particular ad hominem isn't even true is neither here nor there. It's an attack against the makers of the arguments, not against the arguments.* Normally I wouldn't care, but it's indicative of a particularly egregious stupidity in this case, as it immediately follows an example of a building that naturally collapsed "close to free fall.":rolleyes:


By the way, if you were going for one of the good arguments about this, you might try considering that impact force travels through these materials around the speed of sound (I'm pretty sure, would have to look it up--that may just be steel), which might do a better job of explaining building 7's rapid fall than simply saying it didn't happen. . . but I dunno. I'm not an engineer. . . And clearly, neither is anyone else on this thread.


*I'm also aware that it's not technically ad-hominem unless that criticism of the argument makers is used as an attack against the argument, but that seems fairly implicit here . . . and also, I don't really give a fuck.

Kassad
24th December 2008, 01:21
Conspiracy theories are stupid, therefore, we must all believe the official govt. version without questioning. After all, no govt. would ever lie to the people, right? Govts. are honest, and always give a truthful account of what happened.

No one said that. You're putting on a puppet show for yourself, kid.

revolution inaction
24th December 2008, 01:40
see, there we go. This is an articulate, empirical, and persuasive argument that I can clearly take much more seriously than the film footage that was presented to me in my university classroom.


u said


If the collapse in free fall takes 2.5 seconds, the height of the building is (9.8*2.5^2)/2=(9.8*6.25)/2=61.25/2=30.625 meters. A collapse time of 5 seconds, presuming free fall, indicates a building four times this height, over 120 meters.

so i repeat what the fuck are you talking about?

KC posts about a building that takes 2.5 seconds longer to collapse than an object in free fall from the top of the building would take to reach the ground, so you start talking about the hight of the building being different then what he said?


By the way, if you were going for one of the good arguments about this, you might try considering that impact force travels through these materials around the speed of sound (I'm pretty sure, would have to look it up--that may just be steel), which might do a better job of explaining building 7's rapid fall than simply saying it didn't happen. . . but I dunno. I'm not an engineer. . . And clearly, neither is anyone else on this thread.

I don't think thats relevant.
I don't think KC's example of L'Ambiance Plaza is not a vary good argument to explain the speed either.
I would have based my argument on the fact that the building (WT7), didn't collapse in free fall and that it collapsed as fast as it did because the building was designed to hold up thousands of tones of steel, not the impact of thousands of tones falling on it from above, which is what the top did to the lower parts of the building once the collapse started.

Plagueround
24th December 2008, 05:53
I never understood why people feel the need to cling to these kind of things. The real conspiracy is right in front of our faces every single day. They hide it about as well as a kid hiding behind curtains with their feet sticking out.

jake williams
24th December 2008, 06:00
I never understood why people feel the need to cling to these kind of things. The real conspiracy is right in front of our faces every single day. They hide it about as well as a kid hiding behind curtains with their feet sticking out.
I think it's precisely because there's so much conspiring both that the more ridiculous conspiracy theories are made up and believed and that they're held in such contempt.

TheCultofAbeLincoln
24th December 2008, 06:41
yes for if you look at the 2 posisions and reanacted it from all the angles that those 2 consiproisy ones would be inacure it and cause something to not happen but my point still stands that the consiracy of Jhon F kennedy is false and even the comrades from the soviet union came to his funerals but did they come to ours no they did not

I'm not trying to suggest the Soviet Union had anything to do with it. But you have to say the whole thing is a little bizarre, to say the least. Oswald was a Marine, but he wasn't a sniper and to get off 2 perfectly aimed shots on a moving target with a 4 second window is, at the very least, extremely impressive.

If I had been alive and Jack Ruby not shot him, I would have volunteered to represent Oswald in court to tear the official story to threads.

Brother No. 1
24th December 2008, 15:37
well the assasssionation's of other presidents never worked but JFK when they captured the Killer the American People were bafled that one man did this and the where dumb to clean the Crime secen and thus created this conspoirsy theroy but you have your own answer so tell me how do you think the JFK assassanation was held

TheCultofAbeLincoln
25th December 2008, 02:34
well the assasssionation's of other presidents never worked but JFK when they captured the Killer the American People were bafled that one man did this and the where dumb to clean the Crime secen and thus created this conspoirsy theroy but you have your own answer so tell me how do you think the JFK assassanation was held

Well, I don't know how it happened at all. I'm just saying you couldn't convict Oswald with the evidence at hand. But unlike OJ, it'd be perfectly normal to believe he didn't do it and a major investigation would have to go into it.

The Magic-Bullet theory, the final explanation on the Warren Commission, is nothing but a load of bullshit in my opinion. The one thing that gives it believability is the fact that it's so outlandish, the fact that the authorities would surely have made a much better explanation if it were scripted. But hey, Oswald was dead and they were stuck to him.

KC
25th December 2008, 22:29
see, there we go. This is an articulate, empirical, and persuasive argument that I can clearly take much more seriously than the film footage that was presented to me in my university classroom.


. . .ok, so it's unsubstantiated, but at least it's coherent.

You're correct. I spent so much time on the previous argument that I got super lazy with this one and just googled an example without even thinking about it. The fact is that the buildings didn't actually fall at free-fall speeds, and once I looked into that after reading your posts I realized that was a much easier argument than attempting to find examples of buildings that have fallen at such speeds.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention.


Yes, I get it. Most of the people who defend conspiracy theories are stupid people on the internet who have no clue what they're talking about. However, in this particular case, there is a strong core of "truthers" who definitely have a "concept of engineering knowhow"--and merely act like they're stupid people on the internet who have no clue what they're talking about.

But the fact that this particular ad hominem isn't even true is neither here nor there. It's an attack against the makers of the arguments, not against the arguments.* Normally I wouldn't care, but it's indicative of a particularly egregious stupidity in this case, as it immediately follows an example of a building that naturally collapsed "close to free fall."

Which truthers have engineering knowhow?

And the comment was valid considering the fact that most truthers that argue from these positions have no idea what the hell they're talking about.


KC posts about a building that takes 2.5 seconds longer to collapse than an object in free fall from the top of the building would take to reach the ground, so you start talking about the hight of the building being different then what he said?

She was proving that the building actually didn't fall at free-fall speeds, about which she was correct. Of course, nobody was claiming that it fell at such speeds, but close to such speeds; this was false as well, though.


I never understood why people feel the need to cling to these kind of things. The real conspiracy is right in front of our faces every single day. They hide it about as well as a kid hiding behind curtains with their feet sticking out.

The truthers here recently held a demo in front of our University; that night I came home and posted on a political discussion forum which I regularly do, and found a truther thread. I was bored so I decided to demolish it, which I did. If I'm bored again sometime soon perhaps I'll take on Rascolnikova's valid point about the speed of the WTC building collapses.

Rascolnikova
26th December 2008, 08:03
Which truthers have engineering knowhow?

These ones.

http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCIEJ/2008/00000002/00000001/35TOCIEJ.SGM

http://www.springerlink.com/content/f67q6272583h86n4/



And the comment was valid considering the fact that most truthers that argue from these positions have no idea what the hell they're talking about.Some of us think it's better to present evidence for our claims than to make vague general statements that have little to do with any actual argument. We call it science. :P :lol:




She was proving that the building actually didn't fall at free-fall speeds, about which she was correct. Of course, nobody was claiming that it fell at such speeds, but close to such speeds; this was false as well, though.

The truthers here recently held a demo in front of our University; that night I came home and posted on a political discussion forum which I regularly do, and found a truther thread. I was bored so I decided to demolish it, which I did. If I'm bored again sometime soon perhaps I'll take on Rascolnikova's valid point about the speed of the WTC building collapses.Awe, thanks.:)


Radicalgraffiti:

The extrapolation I made--how tall the building would have to be for a 5 second collapse time to represent free fall--was one way of demonstrating how far from free fall it is. Perhaps it would have been more intuitive to you for me to calculate the average of the actual acceleration, and compare that to the average acceleration of free fall (gravity, which is 9.8 meters per second squared), but there's no reason to presume that a non-demolition building collapse would have a constant acceleration, so I went with this.

The speed of impact moving through the materials is relevant because in order for the building to fall as fast as it did, something has to have caused substantive damage to the building before the collapse began--meaning very rapidly. This possible explanation was suggested to me by a physicist with an engineering credential who agrees with me on (the more coherent) 9/11 truthers--they are probably on to something, but they strain at gnats while swallowing camels.

KC
26th December 2008, 08:13
These ones.

http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/co...1/35TOCIEJ.SGM (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCIEJ/2008/00000002/00000001/35TOCIEJ.SGM)

http://www.springerlink.com/content/f67q6272583h86n4/ (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.springerlink.com/content/f67q6272583h86n4/)Interesting; I'll have to look into these more. The same people wrote these, though.

EDIT:

Rascolnikova, here's something to consider, since I know you like math so much. :P

g = 9.81 m/s/s
s = 186 m (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wtc7))

s = 0.5gt^2
t = (2s/g)^0.5
t = (2*186/9.81)^0.5
t = 6.16s

Now, if you watch most of the videos of the collapse, this seems about how long it took for the building to collapse. Take this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD06SAf0p9A), for example.The reality of this collapse, though, is that this video doesn't show the entire collapse, and only showcases the end of the collapse. The reality is that the north face was actually the last part of the building to collapse, and based on seismograph data, and video footage itself (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLHwvwJCmgk) of the time from the collapse of the penthouse to the complete collapse of the building, it actually took around 20 seconds for the whole thing to completely collapse start to finish.

It can also be shown from the following two images that the building did not actually collapse in on itself completely but actually fell to the side, something that does not happen during a controlled demolition (and which is precisely what they get paid to do).

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc7pile.jpg

http://www.debunking911.com/b7debris.jpg