The communist in russia

[Brother No. 1]

In russia and the other exsoviet countries are regreating the fall of the soviet unoin but do they want it back and if yes how will we reform the greatset weapon against the Capitalist pigs your thoughts comrades

[Q]

The working class are not longing back to the Stalinist dictatorship or any of that. However, the planned economy, be it misformed due to bureaucratic control, was able to provide a living standard impossible under capitalism. Free education and healthcare, a good public transport system, good and affordable housing, a guarantee on work and more were all traits of the system and progressive gains still remaining from the revolution of 1917.

People want that back. Yet the "communist party", with the legacy of it's Stalinist past and filled with opportunists and careerists, is not at all able to provide a clear way forward. We need to build on that again.

[Brother No. 1]

you are right comrade the russian communist party must see lenin and trosky more and move away from stalin even though he made the CCCP modern he made it with the lives lenin saved

[S.O.I]

you are right comrade the russian communist party must see lenin and trosky more and move away from stalin even though he made the CCCP modern he made it with the lives lenin saved

in recent readings i have in my derangements concluded that stalin did not ruin soviet, the nazis did.

i guess i would become pretty paranoid and messed up too if i lost 20 million people to an insane sadistic lunatic with a silly mustache from germany... although that is not a justification for agreeing with his politics

[Woland]

The working class are not longing back to the Stalinist dictatorship or any of that.

Well, lots of people are, actually. He was and is still incredibly popular in Russia. Really, hardly anyone in Russia really has a negative view on him. It can be seen as a bit silly, but especially if you had lived in Russia in the early years after the dissolution, you'd see the reasons- Order, security, guaranteed work, pay and housing, things that lots of people in Russia didnt have and still don't have.

Really, Stalin's ''legacy'' is of absolutely no concern, even if it might seem so in the West. Even though the Russian Communist party is pro-Stalin, I am more concerned of all their new methods, or then, their constant appeal to the nostalgia for the Soviet times being their only arguments. Anyway, it is the strongest real party in Russia- The number of voters might be declining, slowly, but considering that the ruling United Russia party is nothing but an umbrella group for the Russian presidents Putin and Medvedev, and all other parties are hardly important, and with the current financial crisis, which is hitting Russia pretty hard, they are still strong.

In many of the former Soviet/Warsaw Pact countries, similiar things seem to happen. This financial crisis just shows- nothing has improved. Without the illusion of freedom and democracy and prosperity, everything has just become worse. There was no ''progress'', everything just continued to decline. Now, a whole bunch of countries in the East are facing state bankruptcy and are now in talks with the IMF. Really, even if a whole bunch of voters are pensioneers (Their living conditions really are terrible) and normal workers from the Soviet age, there have been new young enthusiastic communists and people now generally see the Soviet times in a better light. The financial crisis really shows it- all these 17 years were nothing. Statistics show this too- the GDP is still lower than pre-dissolution(and even pre-dissolution was already bad, with the whole Perestroika, and by relative value, GDP is actually -declining-, and in almost all former ''communist'' countries, its the same- I think, only Croatia managed to achieve its 1990 GDP, in 2007, but then, the superior planned economy does not use GDP), industry is hanging on for its life on the Soviet-built infrastructure (nothing is being built- actually, if you look, in every town, you'd see lots and lots of closed factories. Its depressing. Things which provided work and goods, locally, now have to close because of lack of finance and because of ''competition''-they have to close because there is now foreign goods or because there is a factory in Moscow competing with them), life expectancy fell by 4 years (nowhere in the world has this ever happened), crime is rampant (from being almost nonexistant in the Soviet times), corruption is flourishing (from almost being nonexistant-really, compared to what it is now, its nothing) and people are poor, but there are lots of nouveau-riche (When in the Soviet Union, the richest people only had around, 4 times as much as an average worker). Anyway, I expect to see a resurgence of communism in these countries.

[Q]

Well, lots of people are, actually. He was and is still incredibly popular in Russia. Really, hardly anyone in Russia really has a negative view on him. It can be seen as a bit silly, but especially if you had lived in Russia in the early years after the dissolution, you'd see the reasons- Order, security, guaranteed work, pay and housing, things that lots of people in Russia didnt have and still don't have.

Really, Stalin's ''legacy'' is of absolutely no concern, even if it might seem so in the West. Even though the Russian Communist party is pro-Stalin, I am more concerned of all their new methods, or then, their constant appeal to the nostalgia for the Soviet times being their only arguments. Anyway, it is the strongest real party in Russia- The number of voters might be declining, slowly, but considering that the ruling United Russia party is nothing but an umbrella group for the Russian presidents Putin and Medvedev, and all other parties are hardly important, and with the current financial crisis, which is hitting Russia pretty hard, they are still strong.

In many of the former Soviet/Warsaw Pact countries, similiar things seem to happen. This financial crisis just shows- nothing has improved. Without the illusion of freedom and democracy and prosperity, everything has just become worse. There was no ''progress'', everything just continued to decline. Now, a whole bunch of countries in the East are facing state bankruptcy. Really, even if a whole bunch of voters are pensioneers (Their living conditions really are terrible) and normal workers from the Soviet age, there have been new young enthusiastic communists and people now generally see the Soviet times in a better light. The financial crisis really shows it- all these 17 years were nothing. Statistics show this too- the GDP is still lower than pre-dissolution(and even pre-dissolution was already bad, with the whole Perestroika, and by relative value, GDP is actually -declining-, and in almost all former ''communist'' countries, its the same- I think, only Croatia managed to achieve its 1990 GDP, in 2007, but then, the superior planned economy does not use GDP), industry is hanging on for its life on the Soviet-built infrastructure (nothing is being built- actually, if you look, in every town, you'd see lots and lots of closed factories. Its depressing. Things which provided work and goods, locally, now have to close because of lack of finance and because of ''competition''-they have to close because there is now foreign goods or because there is a factory in Moscow competing with them), life expectancy fell by 4 years (nowhere in the world has this ever happened), crime is rampant (from being almost nonexistant in the Soviet times), corruption is flourishing (from almost being nonexistant-really, compared to what it is now, its nothing) and people are poor, but there are lots of nouveau-riche (When in the Soviet Union, the richest people only had around, 4 times as much as an average worker). Anyway, I expect to see a resurgence of communism in these countries. And on a side note, I really think this harsh reality of today's Russia is what also brought me to communism.
You're posting as if you're opposing what I said, while you're just repeating my point really :confused:

[Woland]

You're posting as if you're opposing what I said, while you're just repeating my point really :confused:

I....just your point on Stalin, then I rant :lol:

and ''repeating'', how insulting!

[Q]

and ''repeating'', how insulting!

Oh, you like the spanking, admit it :P

[Woland]

Oh, you like the spanking, admit it :P

XP you're getting off-topic, young man!

[revolution inaction]

In russia and the other exsoviet countries are regreating the fall of the soviet unoin but do they want it back and if yes how will we reform the greatset weapon against the Capitalist pigs your thoughts comrades

what have workers councils/anarcho-syndicalist unions to do with the ussr?

[Woland]

Well, of course the capitalist's own working class is our greatest weapon, in other terms, the USSR certainly was a good counter to U.S imperialism.

[Pogue]

The USSR was as much of an enemy to the working class as the USA.

[Woland]

^^^Care to back up that claim? In the USSR, production was under the control of workers, and no one else. They were not exploited by anyone. Really, you read too much anti-USSR propaganda and not facts.

[Brother No. 1]

well it would be hard to try and rebuild to soviet union but the poitives are that the Capitalist pigs would be frightened to death again

[Pogue]

^^^Care to back up that claim? In the USSR, production was under the control of workers, and no one else. They were not exploited by anyone. Really, you read too much anti-USSR propaganda and not facts.

It was under the control of the state. I think you should stop reading books on the USSR written by the people who benefited most from tis existence. Propoganda comes from both sides, I just accept the reality as deduced by millions of witnesses.

[Woland]

It was under the control of the state. I think you should stop reading books on the USSR written by the people who benefited most from tis existence. Propoganda comes from both sides, I just accept the reality as deduced by millions of witnesses.

State= Workers control. It wasnt owned by the party chiefs or managers. The state is no real entity here. If it is not, under law, collective property, what other method of ''worker control'' do you have? Actually keep in line with realism here, too.

You certainly do not have the information on the ''reality as deduced by millions of witnesses'' either. Try to back up your claims with some real information and not your opinion or other imaginary opinion. But this is getting off-topic, this is about the Russian Communist party. Being Russian, I have a lot of information on the Soviet Union which is probably completely missing in the West and some grasp on the reality of life there, and I do not have to ''read books written by people who benefited most from its existence'' really, the only people benefiting from its existence were the workers. Have you ever been to today's Russia, even?

[Brother No. 1]

now russia has 2 governing powers the goverment and the Red mod aka Russian Mafia and the mob members get 10 if not 20 times as much money as a citizen and the vodka the citizens love the mob now creates fake vodka for cash and this is capitalism fault for this happening

[Pogue]

State= Workers control. It wasnt owned by the party chiefs or managers. The state is no real entity here. If it is not, under law, collective property, what other method of ''worker control'' do you have? Actually keep in line with realism here, too.

You certainly do not have the information on the ''reality as deduced by millions of witnesses'' either. Try to back up your claims with some real information and not your opinion or other imaginary opinion. But this is getting off-topic, this is about the Russian Communist party. Being Russian, I have a lot of information on the Soviet Union which is probably completely missing in the West and some grasp on the reality of life there, and I do not have to ''read books written by people who benefited most from its existence'' really, the only people benefiting from its existence were the workers. Have you ever been to today's Russia, even?

So its your personal experience versus popular perception and facts. OK.

Perhaps in the debate section we could talk about how the USSR state ownership = being run by the people. I understand worker control to be the workers actually making the decisions in the industries, being the ones actually in charge through soviets. I think you've confused workers control with nationalisation.

[Woland]

So its your personal experience versus popular perception and facts. OK.

No. Its my personal experience and popular perception AND facts. Have you even read my first post in this thread? You yourself have provided NO facts at all, you have -no- experience or any sort, really, and where are your claims of knowledge of the popular perception? Before completely refuting any of my claims, please provide accurate information.

And to the last part of your post, that was the system in the USSR, as you have described it. Once again, this is off topic, you can quote and reply to my first post in this topic, but if you have anything else, we can settle it in the general USSR topic or somewhere. My thoughts on the USSR are complex and Im not exactly seeking to completely refute all of the arguments made against it, but atleast I have a more accurate viewpoint.

[Pogue]

No. Its my personal experience and popular perception AND facts. Have you even read my first post in this thread? You yourself have provided NO facts at all, you have -no- experience or any sort, really, and where are your claims of knowledge of the popular perception? Before completely refuting any of my claims, please provide accurate information.

And to the last part of your post, that was the system in the USSR, as you have described it. Once again, this is off topic, you can quote and reply to my first post in this topic, but if you have anything else, we can settle it in the general USSR topic or somewhere. My thoughts on the USSR are complex and Im not exactly seeking to completely refute all of the arguments made against it, but atleast I have an accurate viewpoint.

OK fair enough comrade lets continue this some other time.

[Woland]

OK fair enough comrade lets continue this some other time.

Alright. I want to make discussion as friendly as possible, and Im never for having any denial and ignorance. As Marx said, everything should be doubted. I admit there were some serious faults in the Soviet Union, but people should be more accurate and accepting.

[Pogue]

I understand, thats a viewpoint many people on this forum share, but i am very sceptical of the USSR. I too want it to remain friendly.

[Q]

^^^Care to back up that claim? In the USSR, production was under the control of workers, and no one else. They were not exploited by anyone. Really, you read too much anti-USSR propaganda and not facts.

How about this smear campaign completely not based on any facts (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/)?