punishement and laws

[danyboy27]

i recently made a topic about obligatory work, and some of you seem to think common sense alone will make people working.

the current state system is composed of many regulation and obligation that it citizen must do : pay taxes income, send your children to school, join the arrmy (in certain countries.) etc etc.

personally, i think some things such has obligatory work have to be instaured to make communism work, and people should be forced to give a education to their children, hell, i even think 30 min of physical activity per day should be obligatory.

[PigmerikanMao]

I think that people should be encouraged, never forced. If you don't have a job, you aren't contributing to the community, so people shun you. People don't like being shunned. :rolleyes:

[RGacky3]

hell, i even think 30 min of physical activity per day should be obligatory.

Justify that, you don't stand a chance.

To make things obligatory, you need a person, or group of people that have the authority to make things obligatory and the means to enforce those things, if you have that you hav'nt accomplished real freedom.

The reason those things are obligatory now, is because there is no real incentive to do them otherwise, the State is'nt interested in the well being of the common man (for the most part, they are when they or the ruling class is threatend by them), so in order to keep the citizenry doing what they deam they are supposed to do they have to back it up by law and back that up with guns.

Its natural for parents to want to give their children an education, the only logic reason they would'nt would be because the children need to work to help support the family, (that happends A LOT).

Now you've said what you think, but you don't say why you think it, why its nessesary, and what justification there is for it.

[danyboy27]

Justify that, you don't stand a chance.

To make things obligatory, you need a person, or group of people that have the authority to make things obligatory and the means to enforce those things, if you have that you hav'nt accomplished real freedom.

The reason those things are obligatory now, is because there is no real incentive to do them otherwise, the State is'nt interested in the well being of the common man (for the most part, they are when they or the ruling class is threatend by them), so in order to keep the citizenry doing what they deam they are supposed to do they have to back it up by law and back that up with guns.

Its natural for parents to want to give their children an education, the only logic reason they would'nt would be because the children need to work to help support the family, (that happends A LOT).

Now you've said what you think, but you don't say why you think it, why its nessesary, and what justification there is for it.


i think incentives dont work good enough, and beside i dont trust peoples at all, not on a large scale. unfortunatly, even if its not really ethical, i think it will always be necessary that some sort of authority to force peoples, and if it what it take to help the people to work together and feed the ethiopian, i dont see why i shouldnt support that.

of course, this is a form of opression, but i rather prefers that than freedom imposed by summary execution and kangoroo courts.

[RGacky3]

i think incentives dont work good enough

WHY? its not incentives, its self-preservation, for a guy who has a garden, he does'nt need "incentives" to mow his lawn. Why will it be necessary? What are the incentives for people NOT to work? Why would they do that, considering that the type of work and the power structure will be compleatly different than Capitalism as has been explained.

The ethiopian is'nt being fed because people arn't feeding him, he does'nt NEED people to feed him, he's not being fed because people are exporting his food, controlling his resources, and using them for their own profit, and have been doing so for centuries.

By the way, you did'nt acually respond to what I said, you just reiterated your opinion, nor did you add anything to back it up.

I don't know where you get summary executions and kangaroo courts from.

[danyboy27]

By the way, you did'nt acually respond to what I said, you just reiterated your opinion, nor did you add anything to back it up.
.

arguments about incentives not working or arguments about the importances of laws?

[RGacky3]

arguments about incentives not working or arguments about the importances of laws?

Both, my argument that incentives are irrelivent, not needed. Read my post.

[danyboy27]

but the way you say people would have to work for their survival rather than being forced to do it, isnt some kind of threat, a way to force people to do something? isnt what capitalism is actually offering to people? work or starve?

there is no advantages for people not to work but people are doing it anyway in a lot of capitalist countries, what make you think that it will be different under a communist society.

incentives are just another open backdoors that peoples are using to cheat, being the son of parents on welfares i just know too good how easy it is to work your ass off in a system riddled with incentives.

[RGacky3]

but the way you say people would have to work for their survival rather than being forced to do it, isnt some kind of threat, a way to force people to do something? isnt what capitalism is actually offering to people? work or starve?

Well its not a pweron forcing people to work, its nature. Its as simple as that.


there is no advantages for people not to work but people are doing it anyway in a lot of capitalist countries, what make you think that it will be different under a communist society.


Yes there are, first of all, in Capitalist countries the vast majority of the people will never work for their own good, ever, so the work incentive is lowered right there, also, for many, not working, or at least not legally working (doing it illigally instead like drug trade) is actually more logical. Yet in a Capitalist society a large amount of workers still take pride in their work, even though its for the good of someone else

Under a communist society, as said before, your working for yourself, ultimately.

Btw, I'd like to ask you, whos giving these incentives in your vision of a communist society?

[danyboy27]

Btw, I'd like to ask you, whos giving these incentives in your vision of a communist society?

the state, or at least anything similar to it, in your case, my dear anarchist, it would be the organizational body of society, call it the way you want.

basicly, i am completly opposed to that views people have that incentives will resolve everything and that no authoritarian power will be needed at all.

[RGacky3]

call it the way you want.

No no no, big difference, in an Anarchist society no one has the right to force anyone to do anything, nor will they have the ability.

You say your opposed to that idea, but you hav'nt responded to my points.

[danyboy27]

hoo no...not again...crap

i dont see people working together without a structure similar to a state, and those structures require that you need to force people to do stuff trought laws, and sometimes incentives, but mainly laws.

why i believe in the notion of state? well, it worked since the world exist, it mean giving to people comfort, its functionnal, it avoid chaos and disorder, and make people that would usually each other work together despite their racial, religious belief or anything related to that.

i love the concept of anarchism, but its just not achievable at all on a wide scale and when i say wide scale, i mean a lot larget than catalonia, the state is on the other hand possible to achieve.

[RGacky3]

i dont see people working together without a structure similar to a state, and those structures require that you need to force people to do stuff trought laws, and sometimes incentives, but mainly laws.

Ok, you don't see it happening, but I just explained to you how it 100% is achievable, it has been achieved in the past, and infact its even MORE motivational than having a State or Capitalism.


well, it worked since the world exist, it mean giving to people comfort, its functionnal, it avoid chaos and disorder, and make people that would usually each other work together despite their racial, religious belief or anything related to that.


No it has'nt, its caused chaos and disorder its upheld and defended tyrannical class systems, its made people work FOR other people, many times it is the cause of racism. The state has'nt worked ever, when it was tied in with Socialism it made a system just as if not more tyrannical than Capitalism.

You say its somehow needed, but what it does is do the opposite o what you think its supposed to do, and infact not having coercion or hyarchies actually does more to motivate.

Also how would a much wider scale be needed than catolina, catolina was'nt one big anarchist society, it was a lot of smaller anarchist societies, a lot of workplaces a lot of neighborhood councils, really the size is irrelivent after that.

I'll take another example, the Zapatista territories, crime there, (violent crime, theft, drug dealing/use) is much lower, percentage wise than the rest of Mexico, significantly. The Zapatista justice system does'nt have prisons, does'nt have the death penatly or any other type of corporal punishment, nor does it have a state. The Zapatista justice system is 100% community service with varying degrees, for example a small crime you might have to work overtime, or do a public project, for murder you have to provide for hte victoms family for the rest of your life.

They don't have a state to enforce it, only the community, the criminal of coarse has the option of leaving to the Mexican state :P.

Guess what, it works.

[danyboy27]

Ok, you don't see it happening, but I just explained to you how it 100% is achievable, it has been achieved in the past, and infact its even MORE motivational than having a State or Capitalism.



No it has'nt, its caused chaos and disorder its upheld and defended tyrannical class systems, its made people work FOR other people, many times it is the cause of racism. The state has'nt worked ever, when it was tied in with Socialism it made a system just as if not more tyrannical than Capitalism.

You say its somehow needed, but what it does is do the opposite o what you think its supposed to do, and infact not having coercion or hyarchies actually does more to motivate.

Also how would a much wider scale be needed than catolina, catolina was'nt one big anarchist society, it was a lot of smaller anarchist societies, a lot of workplaces a lot of neighborhood councils, really the size is irrelivent after that.

I'll take another example, the Zapatista territories, crime there, (violent crime, theft, drug dealing/use) is much lower, percentage wise than the rest of Mexico, significantly. The Zapatista justice system does'nt have prisons, does'nt have the death penatly or any other type of corporal punishment, nor does it have a state. The Zapatista justice system is 100% community service with varying degrees, for example a small crime you might have to work overtime, or do a public project, for murder you have to provide for hte victoms family for the rest of your life.

They don't have a state to enforce it, only the community, the criminal of coarse has the option of leaving to the Mexican state :P.

Guess what, it works.

but you cant compare the crime rate with mexico, there is just a too big disparity of the number of population and also mexico is awfully overcrowded, thereis much more mexican per km/2 than there is mexican per km2 in the zapatista region.

never said anarchy cant work, but i dont see that coming in an overcrowded region.

[RGacky3]

but you cant compare the crime rate with mexico, there is just a too big disparity of the number of population and also mexico is awfully overcrowded, thereis much more mexican per km/2 than there is mexican per km2 in the zapatista region.


I'm talking about Chiapas that is Zapatista, and the part that is not, both are pretty rural, and have similar circumstances, except for one.


never said anarchy cant work, but i dont see that coming in an overcrowded region.

Barcelona is pretty overcrouded, and I just explained how it can and will work, you did'nt refute it, you just reiterated your statement, why not actually address my points.

[danyboy27]

Barcelona is pretty overcrouded, and I just explained how it can and will work, you did'nt refute it, you just reiterated your statement, why not actually address my points.

wich one?

[RGacky3]

These ones


Yes there are, first of all, in Capitalist countries the vast majority of the people will never work for their own good, ever, so the work incentive is lowered right there, also, for many, not working, or at least not legally working (doing it illigally instead like drug trade) is actually more logical. Yet in a Capitalist society a large amount of workers still take pride in their work, even though its for the good of someone else

Under a communist society, as said before, your working for yourself, ultimately.

Btw, I'd like to ask you, whos giving these incentives in your vision of a communist society?


No it has'nt, its caused chaos and disorder its upheld and defended tyrannical class systems, its made people work FOR other people, many times it is the cause of racism. The state has'nt worked ever, when it was tied in with Socialism it made a system just as if not more tyrannical than Capitalism.


The ethiopian is'nt being fed because people arn't feeding him, he does'nt NEED people to feed him, he's not being fed because people are exporting his food, controlling his resources, and using them for their own profit, and have been doing so for centuries.

[ZeroNowhere]

and people should be forced to give a education to their children
I'm hoping that you're not arguing for the bullshit that is compulsory schooling?
Compulsory education is... Human nature, one could say. :)


hell, i even think 30 min of physical activity per day should be obligatory.
...Wait, what?
No, you're not going to get me doing 30 minutes of physical activity per day, thank you very much.
How the hell does one monitor that anyways? Do we have to call people to watch us excercise, or what?

As for compulsory work, what does your silly little government give as punishment for not working?

[danyboy27]

Quote:
Yes there are, first of all, in Capitalist countries the vast majority of the people will never work for their own good, ever, so the work incentive is lowered right there, also, for many, not working, or at least not legally working (doing it illigally instead like drug trade) is actually more logical. Yet in a Capitalist society a large amount of workers still take pride in their work, even though its for the good of someone else

Under a communist society, as said before, your working for yourself, ultimately.


i was thinking that in a communist society we would work together rather than for ourselves?
i dont see how working for the people will actually add more incentive. if tomorow, the buisness i work for would be owned by the people instead, it would change actually nothing at all in term of incentive, even if i had decisional power. i mean, i have no fucking time for this, decision and all that stuff, i already got many thing to do without having to bother to take decision for all the little things happening in the buisness, and chances are that my vote wont change nothing anyway, i always see thing differenrtly.

Quote:
No it has'nt, its caused chaos and disorder its upheld and defended tyrannical class systems, its made people work FOR other people, many times it is the cause of racism. The state has'nt worked ever, when it was tied in with Socialism it made a system just as if not more tyrannical than Capitalism.


the whole idea of state was created to actually stop chaos and disorder.
before the state system existed, you could have your house burned beccause the neighboring tribe didnt liked your religion/race. the state was created in a certain arttempt of avoiding such things to happen. now i wont denies war still exist, and its horrible, and you certainly have less right than a person that would live in a stateless society, but you dont have to worry about ragtag people coming to your house and killing you in the middle of the night.
most of the problems poor countries have reside in the fact that they cant make their state system working efficiently. we should help them to be self sufficent, having their own states, own school and food etc, but for stuff like hurricanes and bad harvest, effieicnt international help could really work out.

[RGacky3]

i was thinking that in a communist society we would work together rather than for ourselves?

Ultimately your working for yourself, you and your families well being, but to do that, you work together with other people, mutual aid.


i dont see how working for the people will actually add more incentive. if tomorow, the buisness i work for would be owned by the people instead, it would change actually nothing at all in term of incentive, even if i had decisional power. i mean, i have no fucking time for this, decision and all that stuff, i already got many thing to do without having to bother to take decision for all the little things happening in the buisness, and chances are that my vote wont change nothing anyway, i always see thing differenrtly.


The incentive is that now, you are working for your own good, rather than a bosses, under Capitalism your working for a paycheck and to keep your job. Under Communism, your working to improve your situation, along with everyone elses (everyone elses comes with it, because to improove your situation you have to work with other people). What it will cut back on, is work that does'nt need to be done, so yeah the incentive will be there for stuff that is worthwhile doing.


the whole idea of state was created to actually stop chaos and disorder.

No it was'nt. Look at history, states came about as a means of controling people, a formal structure of class rule.

Just compare European history with North America before the 1600s, what was more civilized, the contenant with strong central governments or the one without.

Not once not never was a state created for the purpose of stopping chaos and disorder, it was always, about power.

Your concept of the State is utopian/theoretical at best, it compleatly ignores history, empirical evidence and human nature (PEOPLE control States).

[danyboy27]

Ultimately your working for yourself, you and your families well being, but to do that, you work together with other people, mutual aid.
.

hoo right :D




The incentive is that now, you are working for your own good, rather than a bosses, under Capitalism your working for a paycheck and to keep your job. Under Communism, your working to improve your situation, along with everyone elses (everyone elses comes with it, because to improove your situation you have to work with other people). What it will cut back on, is work that does'nt need to be done, so yeah the incentive will be there for stuff that is worthwhile doing.

i live in a capitalist system and i always work for my own good. do you think i actually care about my buisness? i am a mercenary man, i go where it pay. i will remain loyal to the one who pay and treat me the best, ultimatly, i work in order to get better life condition, and will always do that no matter the system, having commie in power wont change my mentality about that.


No it was'nt. Look at history, states came about as a means of controling people, a formal structure of class rule.

sure, with the main goal of reducing chaos. everything have a price.



Just compare European history with North America before the 1600s, what was more civilized, the contenant with strong central governments or the one without.

what the indian/incans achieved? they fough eachother regulary only difference was that they fough with spear and we fought with gun.

[RGacky3]

i live in a capitalist system and i always work for my own good. do you think i actually care about my buisness? i am a mercenary man, i go where it pay. i will remain loyal to the one who pay and treat me the best, ultimatly, i work in order to get better life condition, and will always do that no matter the system, having commie in power wont change my mentality about that.


You go where it pays yes, but ultimately who's paying you, your boss, you have to work FOR HIM. First of all there is no such thing as having "commie in power" communism is a form of social organization (i.e. free and equal).

The change in mentality will be, your not producing for pay, your not working for a paycheck, which your getting from a dude that is using what your making to make more money for himself, your working for yourself, and your community, there is no money, no profit, your job, is to make yourlife, and your communities life more comfortable.

Under Capitalism, your job is to make sure your boss is getting a profit fromryour work, if not, you loose your job.


sure, with the main goal of reducing chaos. everything have a price.

No, where are you getting this main goal? Was there way more chaos before states? Controlling people is'nt a price to pay, its teh goal, don't be naive.


what the indian/incans achieved? they fough eachother regulary only difference was that they fough with spear and we fought with gun.

I said North American indians, most indian tribes to the south had well developed and tyrannical states already.