A form of discrimination not discussed ever!

[not_of_this_world]

When I turned 45 years old I was an overly educated unemployed male with a family to support. After getting so many job refusals I finally figured out why I was not being hired. My age of course. They wondered why I was unemployed. This was in the 70's and a national consciousness for anything discriminatory was unheard of except in state jobs or government jobs. Armed with that knowledge I narrowed my search to taking civil service tests at the local, state and federal levels of government. One day I got a letter from the department of corrections and it said they were interviewing for correctional officers. I went of course as the pay was very good and the benefits included a pension and health care for my growing family. At the interview I had to field a question by the officer in charge and when he asked me if I had ever been discriminated against I answered in the affirmative. When I told him that I was being denied positions on the basis of my age he agreed and I was hired! Today of course that form of discrimination is the hidden discriminate tool used by employers to turn away applicants who have age on their side. Most employers distrust the older employee and thinks they are harder to mold. Don't be discriminated ever if you are in your 40's the law protects you! One of the few that do by the way!

[Module]

I agree, age discrimination is a big problem. 'Older' people trying to find a job have often a much harder time, due to, besides the reasons you gave, a perceived higher risk of health issues or injury, or perceived inability to perform certain physical tasks etc., but also mentally, there does seem to be a belief that older people are 'past their prime', and so whatever skills required for a job can be found in better quality in a young person. And then, on the physical side, innumerable female news presenters have been sacked after passing 40. You're right, age discrimination is a big problem, and one which many people don't seem to notice or take seriously. :(

[Sentinel]

This is the kind of ageism we should be really concerned about -- as opposed to the laws, rules etc that can be perceived as discriminatory towards teenagers, and many voice lots of opposition against. Obviously they aren't nice either, but the problem is temporary..

And don't get me wrong, I'm firmly of the opinion that most age limits are ridiculously high, and even if lowered they'd still at times be unfair as people develop at individual paces.

But discrimination against older people on the labour market simply is a much more serious problem.

[TC]

When I turned 45 years old I was an overly educated unemployed male with a family to support. After getting so many job refusals I finally figured out why I was not being hired. My age of course. They wondered why I was unemployed. This was in the 70's and a national consciousness for anything discriminatory was unheard of except in state jobs or government jobs. Armed with that knowledge I narrowed my search to taking civil service tests at the local, state and federal levels of government. One day I got a letter from the department of corrections and it said they were interviewing for correctional officers. I went of course as the pay was very good and the benefits included a pension and health care for my growing family. At the interview I had to field a question by the officer in charge and when he asked me if I had ever been discriminated against I answered in the affirmative. When I told him that I was being denied positions on the basis of my age he agreed and I was hired! Today of course that form of discrimination is the hidden discriminate tool used by employers to turn away applicants who have age on their side. Most employers distrust the older employee and thinks they are harder to mold. Don't be discriminated ever if you are in your 40's the law protects you! One of the few that do by the way!


http://www.revleft.com/vb/../images/misc/progress.gif http://www.revleft.com/vb/../images/buttons/edit.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1313686)


I completely and totally disagree.

The fact is that 45-60 year old "overly educated" heterosexual men are the single most powerful demographic group, the single best paid, highest status, most well represented in professions. They are in most ways, the default human being in our society, its 'not ever discussed' because society is structured around their needs.

Just as people think of gender primarily in terms of women, and they think of race in terms of non-white races, people don't think of age discrimination in terms of 45 year old men precisely because they are within the range of the age when educated professional/managerial class males are at the height of their social power.

You should, frankly, be ashamed for even bringing this up in this forum, particularly given that you described fear (unfounded as it turned out) of losing the opportunity to act as the direct arm of state violence against truly oppressed people due to "discrimination." You are not a victim of discrimination you're are directly responsible for social discrimination.

[jake williams]

I completely and totally disagree.

The fact is that 45-60 year old "overly educated" heterosexual men are the single most powerful demographic group, the single best paid, highest status, most well represented in professions. They are in most ways, the default human being in our society, its 'not ever discussed' because society is structured around their needs.

Just as people think of gender primarily in terms of women, and they think of race in terms of non-white races, people don't think of age discrimination in terms of 45 year old men precisely because they are within the range of the age when educated professional/managerial class males are at the height of their social power.

You should, frankly, be ashamed for even bringing this up in this forum, particularly given that you described fear (unfounded as it turned out) of losing the opportunity to act as the direct arm of state violence against truly oppressed people due to "discrimination." You are not a victim of discrimination you're are directly responsible for social discrimination.
I love.

I was just going to say that a) this type of discrimination is talked about all the time and b) age discrimination against younger people (yes, Sentinel) is much, much worse in every way. But TC kind of upped and there isn't much worth for me to say.

[Sentinel]

particularly given that you described fear (unfounded as it turned out) of losing the opportunity to act as the direct arm of state violence against truly oppressed people due to "discrimination."

Wait, correctional officer=prison guard? In that case I obviously agree it's not an appropriate profession for a leftist..



b) age discrimination against younger people (yes, Sentinel) is much, much worse in every way.


And how is this now? I'm curious. Exactly how is having to wait a while before you can buy cigarettes and alcohol or get a drivers licence or whatever 'much much worse in every way' than getting chronically stuck as unemployed because you are 'too old' when you actually are only middleaged and have several years left on the labour market before retirement?

I'm sorry, but that is just ridiculous.

[Bilan]

[/right]

The fact is that 45-60 year old "overly educated" heterosexual men are the single most powerful demographic group, the single best paid, highest status, most well represented in professions. They are in most ways, the default human being in our society, its 'not ever discussed' because society is structured around their needs.

That is on average, and determined by industry, not a universal rule.
Why you'd support discrimination against people on the basis of age is just bizarre.



Just as people think of gender primarily in terms of women, and they think of race in terms of non-white races, people don't think of age discrimination in terms of 45 year old men precisely because they are within the range of the age when educated professional/managerial class males are at the height of their social power.

Are you substituting class for age? Do you not understand the nature of class or something? It is not determined by age. That is a bogus theory.



You should, frankly, be ashamed for even bringing this up in this forum, particularly given that you described fear (unfounded as it turned out) of losing the opportunity to act as the direct arm of state violence against truly oppressed people due to "discrimination." You are not a victim of discrimination you're are directly responsible for social discrimination.


He should be ashamed? Who the hell do you think you are?
Don't you dare start talking down to people because of their situation, or their age.
Fuck.

[TC]

\
And how is this now? I'm curious. Exactly how is having to wait a while before you can buy cigarettes and alcohol or get a drivers licence or whatever 'much much worse in every way' than getting chronically stuck as unemployed because you are 'too old' when you actually are only middleaged and have several years left on the labour market before retirement?

I'm sorry, but that is just ridiculous.

Lets walk through a series of scenarios then.


If I had a teenage daughter, in most US states I could:

1. hit her as long as I didn't leave bruising

-If anyone did that to me, it would be assault and battery and the state would enforce my right to bodily integrity and dignity with monetary damages and/or criminal charges.

2. Imprison her in a mental institution against her will under a theory of 'voluntary committal', or confine her to a room, or a house or apartment against her will.

-If someone did that to me, it would be false imprisonment and the state would protect my right to autonomy and freedom of movement with criminal and civil sanctions.

3. take any wages she earns and dispose of them as my own, and she'd have no recourse.

-This would, to an adult, be indentured servitude.

4. subject her to medical treatment against her will.

-To an adult, this is battery.

5. force her to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.

-Adults in the US have the right to terminate pregnancies under the federal constitution.

6. Forcibly relocate her, move her away from her friends, forbid her from contacting them, etc.

-This would be human trafficing if done to an adult.

7. Transfer her to another person's custody against her will conferring the above powers to them.

8. Order her to perform household or other tasks for me at my pleasure and impose any of the above sanctions against her if she refused.
-If this relationship existed between adults within a legal framework, we'd call it slavery.


When this relationship existed between adults, people largely didn't think it was shocking or abnormal either. It was normal and has been through most of human post-agricultural history in differing forms.

Additionally, because I'm an educated adult, I can get a job that wont demean me more than most. A teenager can't. Teenagers and children are barred from most work and only allowed the worst paid and least fulfilling, least socially and personally productive work. In the UK younger people are actually by law paid less for the same work then older people. In the US they're legally restricted from working sufficent hours to support themselves independently of their custodians.


So, if you'd like to tell me that, perhaps the fact that i'd be rejected from certain socially undesirable jobs due to age and educational level, means that I experience more social discrimination on account of my age than a teenager or child...then I'm sorry but thats ridiculous.

[MarxSchmarx]

Where I come from age discrimination is legal, and you see it all the time. In wanted ads, for example, people routinely say: restricted to those under 40,35,50, etc...

Of course, there are some progressive employers who are trying to change this by not putting age limits, and there are blips here and there in the legislature to make this kind of crap illegal.

The fact of the matter is young employees are easier to train and put up with a lot more shit from management. I`m not saying young people have it easy. Only that people looking for jobs have absolutely no control over their age, just as they have absolutely no control over their race or gender. There is no justification for not hiring someone based on age alone.

[Module]

Are you substituting class for age? Do you not understand the nature of class or something? It is not determined by age. That is a bogus theory. Where on earth did she say class is determined by age?
She said that "45-60 year old "overly educated" heterosexual men" are a socially dominant group. That is true.
However, I don't agree with all that she has said;
It is often the case that working people find it a lot harder to get a job once they become 'old'. Many employers do not want to hire an older person as opposed to a younger person. Whilst no doubt the majority of ageist discrimination occours towards young people, that does not mean that older people do not suffer age discrimination, I think they can suffer a great deal.
But yes, I do agree with TC that age discrimination towards young people is greater. You said that younger people are paid less for the same work in the UK, that is the same here. In my old job the boss decided wages on the basis of age, and basically whatever he could get away with, (including charging the statistically most productive worker, who was about 30 years old, 10 dollars an hour, the wage of the 16 year olds there, because she was also mentally challenged and they knew she wouldn't complain). I don't think I've ever met any teenagers around here that got paid the same rate as their adult coworkers.
Younger people are directly discriminated against in the workplace, and without a doubt face more discrimination than older people.
That doesn't mean that people can't face age discrimination for something other than being young. Other forms of age discrimination are, for instance, many employers make it private policy not to hire women of 'child bearing age' ... I can't think of any other examples :p

[Bilan]

Where on earth did she say class is determined by age?

She implied it through her poor analysis.


The fact is that 45-60 year old "overly educated" heterosexual men are the single most powerful demographic group, the single best paid, highest status, most well represented in professions. They are in most ways, the default human being in our society, its 'not ever discussed' because society is structured around their needs.


For example. This discounts the nature of class in favour of a social analysis.



She said that "45-60 year old "overly educated" heterosexual men" are a socially dominant group. That is true.

They are a dominant group in terms of social power, not economic power - that is class, not age. But being part of a socially dominant group does not mean your above discrimination.
Which really reiterates the point that her theory is ridiculous, useless, and stupid.



But yes, I do agree with TC that age discrimination towards young people is greater. You said that younger people are paid less for the same work in the UK, that is the same here. In my old job the boss decided wages on the basis of age, and basically whatever he could get away with, (including charging the statistically most productive worker, who was about 30 years old, 10 dollars an hour, the wage of the 16 year olds there, because she was also mentally challenged and they knew she wouldn't complain). I don't think I've ever met any teenagers around here that got paid the same rate as their adult coworkers.
Younger people are directly discriminated against in the workplace, and without a doubt face more discrimination than older people.
That doesn't mean that people can't face age discrimination for something other than being young. Other forms of age discrimination are, for instance, many employers make it private policy not to hire women of 'child bearing age'.


They're not discriminated against in terms of wages, like young people are. That is the main basis for discrimination against young people in the workplace - wages. It is just different for people of an older age bracket.

[Module]

For example. This discounts the nature of class in favour of a social analysis. Well given that we're talking about a specific form of social discrimination, a social analysis is probably rather fitting.

They are a dominant group in terms of social power, not economic power - that is class, not age. But being part of a socially dominant group does not mean your above discrimination.
Which really reiterates the point that her theory is ridiculous, useless, and stupid.They are a socially dominant group, that is, they are not socially vulnerable. The only form of discrimination this group would be vulnerable to is class discrimination. We're talking about age discrimination, and her point is that the OP is not a part of a social group susceptible to age discrimination. It would be like the OP complaining that white people are discriminated against (I don't agree with this, I don't agree with TC's view on this, but that is the point she is making).

They're not discriminated against in terms of wages, like young people are. That is the main basis for discrimination against young people in the workplace - wages. It is just different for people of an older age bracket.Yes, what's your point?

[ifeelyou]

[/RIGHT]


I completely and totally disagree.

The fact is that 45-60 year old "overly educated" heterosexual men are the single most powerful demographic group, the single best paid, highest status, most well represented in professions. They are in most ways, the default human being in our society, its 'not ever discussed' because society is structured around their needs.

Just as people think of gender primarily in terms of women, and they think of race in terms of non-white races, people don't think of age discrimination in terms of 45 year old men precisely because they are within the range of the age when educated professional/managerial class males are at the height of their social power.

You should, frankly, be ashamed for even bringing this up in this forum, particularly given that you described fear (unfounded as it turned out) of losing the opportunity to act as the direct arm of state violence against truly oppressed people due to "discrimination." You are not a victim of discrimination you're are directly responsible for social discrimination.

loves u!

[Demogorgon]

[/RIGHT]


I completely and totally disagree.

The fact is that 45-60 year old "overly educated" heterosexual men are the single most powerful demographic group, the single best paid, highest status, most well represented in professions. They are in most ways, the default human being in our society, its 'not ever discussed' because society is structured around their needs.

Just as people think of gender primarily in terms of women, and they think of race in terms of non-white races, people don't think of age discrimination in terms of 45 year old men precisely because they are within the range of the age when educated professional/managerial class males are at the height of their social power.

You should, frankly, be ashamed for even bringing this up in this forum, particularly given that you described fear (unfounded as it turned out) of losing the opportunity to act as the direct arm of state violence against truly oppressed people due to "discrimination." You are not a victim of discrimination you're are directly responsible for social discrimination.
What is it with you and your support for every form of discrimination that does not affect you directly? Discrimination against older people is fast becoming one of the worst forms of discrimination out there. People over fifty struggle terribly to find employment. Pensioners find themselves pushed around by the Government, offered wholly inadequate benefits. More and more people find themselves pushed into early retirement they cannot really afford because employers do not want people of their age.

Safe inside the bubble you have built around yourself, discrimination has become an abstract thing you have applied to your pet causes and willfully ignore, or even support, when it comes to other things. It is long past the point where I should bother to say you ought to be ashamed of yourself, because you seem to wallow in your prejudices, but perhaps it is still worth asking you to take a look at the real world rather than your insulated middle class bubble and actually see the extremes of the discrimination you do not believe exist.

[Demogorgon]

Incidentally, I think this thread in many ways proves that discrimination does exist against older people. We get constant whining here about the way teenagers are treated. To be sure, some of the treatment is unacceptable and amounts to discrimination, but a lot of it is entirely justifiable protection for people who are not yet adults. Claiming that asking teenagers to do their share of tasks around the house amounts to slavery is absurd and I can only wonder what kind of brats people claiming that must have been to their parents. If kids really are treated like slaves they have plenty of recourse, the social services for one tend to be very interested in that kind of thing.

Anyway we get plenty of complaints regarding every inconvenience leveled on teenagers, but when an older gentleman tells us of the considerable discrimination he has suffered, he gets shouted down. This is the very definition of prejudice and discrimination.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

[/right]


I completely and totally disagree.

The fact is that 45-60 year old "overly educated" heterosexual men are the single most powerful demographic group, the single best paid, highest status, most well represented in professions. They are in most ways, the default human being in our society, its 'not ever discussed' because society is structured around their needs.

Just as people think of gender primarily in terms of women, and they think of race in terms of non-white races, people don't think of age discrimination in terms of 45 year old men precisely because they are within the range of the age when educated professional/managerial class males are at the height of their social power.

You should, frankly, be ashamed for even bringing this up in this forum, particularly given that you described fear (unfounded as it turned out) of losing the opportunity to act as the direct arm of state violence against truly oppressed people due to "discrimination." You are not a victim of discrimination you're are directly responsible for social discrimination.

To be frank, this post I quoted was probably one of the worst non-OI replies I've read on this forum in quite sometime. Your response took the topic completely out of context just to amount an attack against white (middle-aged) heterosexual males, which is just as barbaric as racism towards African Americans and sexism towards women. There is no "group" that gets beat up the most, nor is it all that important to identify as groups when discussing such subjects (nor did the OP submit any cause to believe that they were being discriminated against the most). Individuals are all treated disrespectfully through capitalism, including white males.

It's undeniable that there are instances where such people are discriminated against in the workforce, whether through ageism or affirmative action. A socialist wrought with enough intellect to hate all forms of discrimination should not be complaining because someone brought up that it's under emphasized. Just as I previously pointed out in some thread awhile back that sexism towards males is just as bad as sexism towards females, if not_of_this_world can't get a job because of his religion/sex/age/race, it's no better than a 20 year old lesbian having the same problem.

Rhetoric such as this does no good for the left.

[Dean]

The "scorecard" notion of discrimination is truly offensive to me. Being "white" or male doesn't make a person privileged or otherwise free from discrimination, and most "white" males are in the lower class, making their "privilege" rather meaningless.

[Dr Mindbender]

[/right]


I completely and totally disagree.

The fact is that 45-60 year old "overly educated" heterosexual men are the single most powerful demographic group, the single best paid, highest status, most well represented in professions. They are in most ways, the default human being in our society, its 'not ever discussed' because society is structured around their needs.

Just as people think of gender primarily in terms of women, and they think of race in terms of non-white races, people don't think of age discrimination in terms of 45 year old men precisely because they are within the range of the age when educated professional/managerial class males are at the height of their social power.

You should, frankly, be ashamed for even bringing this up in this forum, particularly given that you described fear (unfounded as it turned out) of losing the opportunity to act as the direct arm of state violence against truly oppressed people due to "discrimination." You are not a victim of discrimination you're are directly responsible for social discrimination.


I think the point the OP was making is that people in this age band are at risk of discrimination if they happen to be unemployed. That being the case, i completely understand where he is coming from, i could imagine it being extremely awkward being sat in a job interview waiting room with about 10 fresh faced 21 year old spring chickens who are ready to be moulded the way the prospective employer wants them (old dogs and new tricks and all that).

Obviously the likes of Donald Trump and Richard Branson who are in the same bracket have nothing to fear from such vulnerability because they already hold positions of influence. I guess when you're 50 and clawing your way through vacancy cards at the dole office its a much different proposition.

[Sentinel]

Like I have already pointed out, I think age limits should be radically lowered. There also seem to be some differences in teenagers rights between Sweden and the US -- especially the forced pregnancy and violence things stick out as utterly despicable and should be viciously fought against by progressives.

I do however generally agree with the sentiment of Demogorgon's post, and remain of the opinion that discrimination against older people on the labor market is a large problem. And at least in Sweden, much more so than ageism against teenagers.

I also feel like I have to point out here that there is a reason 'teenagers and children are barred from most kinds of work', and that is successful class struggle over the decades. Without a prohibition on child labor parents would force -- due to in turn being economically forced by the bourgeoisie -- their kids to work on the expense of schoolwork and leisure time.

That is how it used to be, and we certainly don't wish to return to those days.

[TC]

The "scorecard" notion of discrimination is truly offensive to me. Being "white" or male doesn't make a person privileged or otherwise free from discrimination, and most "white" males are in the lower class, making their "privilege" rather meaningless.

No actually i'm afraid being a white male is actually a privileged status, its not privileged against white males of superior class status but they do enjoy privileges not available to say, black female children. To pretend otherwise because it makes you feel better is unmaterialist and unmarxist.

If you're a white male, you have many privileges that you don't recognize as such because you just assume them. You can for instance walk down a street at night without being arrested or harassed. It doesn't occur to them that this constitutes a privilege because they've never been arrested or sexually assaulted for walking on a street while black and/or female.

The amount of privileges any adult, apart from one incarcerated, has compared to any child however, is on a vastly greater scale.

[Die Neue Zeit]

What is it with you and your support for every form of discrimination that does not affect you directly? Discrimination against older people is fast becoming one of the worst forms of discrimination out there. People over fifty struggle terribly to find employment. Pensioners find themselves pushed around by the Government, offered wholly inadequate benefits. More and more people find themselves pushed into early retirement they cannot really afford because employers do not want people of their age.

Safe inside the bubble you have built around yourself, discrimination has become an abstract thing you have applied to your pet causes and willfully ignore, or even support, when it comes to other things. It is long past the point where I should bother to say you ought to be ashamed of yourself, because you seem to wallow in your prejudices, but perhaps it is still worth asking you to take a look at the real world rather than your insulated middle class bubble and actually see the extremes of the discrimination you do not believe exist.

Well, on the other hand some of this discrimination MAY be attributable to an opposite tendency: "boomers" staying longer in the workforce or re-entering it, thereby depriving youths of the specific jobs that they want.

[BTW, I'm in agreement with your statement condemning the bourgeois feminism and petit-bourgeois "youth-ism" in this thread.]

[Schrödinger's Cat]

If you're a white male, you have many privileges that you don't recognize as such because you just assume them.

Discriminatory bullshit on your part.

If a white male grows up in a predominantly minority neighborhood, they experience discrimination like a black man would in a white community. I've had my experiences with the former and latter.

[Pawn Power]

Discriminatory bullshit on your part.

If a white male grows up in a predominantly minority neighborhood, they experience discrimination like a black man would in a white community. I've had my experiences with the former and latter.




What? Your joking right?

First off, white men are "privileged" not because of the makeup of neighborhoods but because of a system of white supremacist capitalist patriarchy. Certainly, there are always individual instances of oppression, no body is denying that, but the discrimination of women and people of color is a systemic oppression that is supported by those in power and a racist and sexist society. It is much different then one being called "whitey" in a black community. There is no structure which is denying white men jobs, safety, equal pay, health care access, and other rights because they are white men. Saying that systemic anti-black racism is the same as a particular case of anti-white racism denies a history that has oppressed one group and privileged another. This history continues today and all people are still carrying with them (in a material sense) a history on oppression and privilege (or a combination of both). This is seen through segregated communities, through a disparity in accumulated family resources, in class power, etc.

[Rascolnikova]

Discriminatory bullshit on your part.

If a white male grows up in a predominantly minority neighborhood, they experience discrimination like a black man would in a white community. I've had my experiences with the former and latter.


Being discriminated against in a minority neighborhood, providing one survives the experience intact, isn't remotely as damaging to one's freedom as being discriminated against . . . I don't know. . . everywhere else.


As far as the question of bourgeois youth-ism and feminism, I can't disagree that the way these issues are presented often run counter to class struggle. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean the points made in that way are always wrong. Simply because these devisions have been created to stop us from uniting to our common cause doesn't mean that people don't suffer or benefit from where they fall within those devisions.

Being white and male doesn't render one immune to ageism, but it should be remembered that (for example) black females face the same issues of ageism, along with a very significant burden of discrimination for their gender and skin color.

Are the differences between what a white man faces and what a black woman faces large in comparison to the vast differences of privilege created by class? Of course not. Is it counterproductive to be caught up in these smaller differences at the expense of uniting the proletariat as a class? Of course.

This in mind, it doesn't do (on all sorts of levels) to belittle the suffering of others. Therefore, a good revolutionary white male expresses substantial respect for the significant cost people of other gender/s and skin colors pay for their "otherness"; a good revolutionary black female makes a point of articulating her racial and gender oppression in terms of class struggle.

[DesertShark]

I would think that most discrimination against older people would be due to health care. Older people are more likely to have existing health conditions and/or are more likely to get sick, which could be a burden on the employer because they have to provide health care. Perhaps this form of discrimination would not exist in places where everyone has access to free health care? Anyone from countries with socialized medicine have a comment on this?

[Dr Mindbender]

No actually i'm afraid being a white male is actually a privileged status, its not privileged against white males of superior class status but they do enjoy privileges not available to say, black female children. To pretend otherwise because it makes you feel better is unmaterialist and unmarxist.

Perhaps but equally it's a symptom of the capitalist hegemony. I think the class authors who instigate this are the ones we need to concentrate on. Saying that 'white' workers are better off is divisive and not worth dwelling on. White privilege and male privilege will die with the death of class society.

[Pawn Power]

Perhaps but equally it's a symptom of the capitalist hegemony. I think the class authors who instigate this are the ones we need to concentrate on. Saying that 'white' workers are better off is divisive and not worth dwelling on. White privilege and male privilege will die with the death of class society.

What you are basically saying is that only "scholars" and "intellectuals" should dwell on inequality and oppression. Workers shouldn't think of these things.

Just thought I should restate that.

Maybe when it is worded this way people can see what you are saying is ridiculous.

[Pogue]

Discrimination agaisnt youth is appalling. Theres no way we should ignore it. We get paid less, we get treated like shit. And then conservative and respectable law abiding people get shocked when people get annoyed and start something.

[Dr Mindbender]

What you are basically saying is that only "scholars" and "intellectuals" should dwell on inequality and oppression. Workers shouldn't think of these things.

Just thought I should restate that.

Maybe when it is worded this way people can see what you are saying is ridiculous.

No, what i'm saying is that discrimination and whatever else are awful, we should organise against it yes, but at the same time we shouldnt lose sight of the bigger picture which is the end of the capitalist class system.

I think it's unproductive and reactionary to allow sexism and racism to become single issue debates when in fact we need to 'join the dots' with other issues.

[apathy maybe]

Age discrimination against both young people (especially below the age of 18 in most places, when children are still the "property" in many respects of their parents) and older people is a problem.

TragicClown has given good examples of discrimination against young people, but I can't agree with her argument that there is no discrimination against older people.

The fact is, that often companies don't want to employ older men and women, especially the long term unemployed. It makes it harder for folks to change jobs or careers etc.

Wikipedia says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageism#Forms_and_manifestations_of_ageism

Age discrimination in hiring has been shown to exist in the United States. Joanna Lahey, economics professor at Texas A&M University, found that firms are more than 40% more likely to interview a younger job applicant than an older job applicant.[18] (The link given doesn't appear to work...)

[Dr Mindbender]

Lol I wonder why white heterosexual males post here everyone hates you :D
You are worth nothing according to this people. It's the same as a black man joining the klan

I'll see in a few years when you are old geezers if you think ageism is not a problem.

Fucking lunatics, thank god intelligent people despise you, disgusting hateful reds

Go start some riot and kill white males somewhere

See you fuckers! If you want to be free of this capitalist society, there are flies to Cuba from here, you might enjoy it there and leave everyone alone.


Whats that i hear? Oh its the banhammer.

[jake williams]

There is plenty of discrimination against, at least the elderly if not the middle aged. It's both personal and systemic, and it's not good. It's just less significant than discrimination against young people, generally, in severity and certainly in extent.

This whole discussion really should be taking place properly situated within at least a negotiated larger context. I think that might clear up a lot of the squabbling. When one talks about sexism, one can say that wealthier women to some extent do have to deal with sexism, but it's relatively minimal, and relative to working class men they enjoy substantial privilege. Similarly, I think younger people are oppressed relative to older people, and I think illegitimately, but upper class young people both have less oppression to deal with along this axis and enjoy substantial privilege over older workers. Intersections and all that.

I don't think age works the same way. I think with age in particular, older people have their oppression or their privilege exacerbated, depending on their place in society. I think wealthier individuals gain more privilege as they age whereas poorer people have at least less economic power as they age. This is greatly simplified, and it also doesn't suggest that there are no social contexts in which older people have power regardless.

This isn't all there is to it or all we could talk about, it's not even perfectly accurate or articulated, but it's a start I think.

[Decolonize The Left]

Age discrimination, like all forms of discrimination, deserves our attention and action as leftists.

What we must do is combat these forms of discrimination all-the-while raising class consciousness through the communicated understanding that socio-cultural differences are surpassed through a class analysis.

- August

[ifeelyou]

Age discrimination, like all forms of discrimination, deserves our attention and action as leftists.

What we must do is combat these forms of discrimination all-the-while raising class consciousness through the communicated understanding that socio-cultural differences are surpassed through a class analysis.

- August

Please explain to me how "socio-cultural differences are surpassed through a class analysis."

[TC]

Age discrimination, like all forms of discrimination, deserves our attention and action as leftists.

What we must do is combat these forms of discrimination all-the-while raising class consciousness through the communicated understanding that socio-cultural differences are surpassed through a class analysis.

- August


I'm sure that makes sense to you but you're just spouting vulgar economist dogma. An in depth study of Marxism shows that it doesn't collapse all class and power relations to two uniform dueling antagonistic classes; in fact class relations have complicated internal dynamics and there are competing interests within larger class categories. Classes are not metaphysical entities that have a reality beyond people's actual relationship to money and power and those relationships are clearly much more diverse than you seem to recognize.

[Lynx]

What you are basically saying is that only "scholars" and "intellectuals" should dwell on inequality and oppression. Workers shouldn't think of these things.
I doubt that workers would relate to the kind of intellectual dismissal put forth in this thread.