:) i like this place.

[casper]

hey, call me Casper

I'm young and still in school, but from a young age I've hated the system I've been born into. i want to change it. A classless society, where man is truly free, sounds like utopia, and i believe it will possibly happen naturally as modes of production advance. i consider communism to be a state where man and his labor is neither owned nor rented. Athens, often considered one of the worlds first "democracy", was built off the backs of slaves. Sparta had their helots. later in time, kings and lords had their surfs. Before capitalism, man and his labor was owned. Now is the time of capitalism, where technically man owns himself, but he must rent out his time and labor, his skill in order to survive. His time and labor are now objects on the market, and what is a man's life and experience besides his time and labor? Man is de jure free, but de facto still a slave. its just that the freedom of movement given to him by his chains has increased, his prison yard is larger, so large that some don't even see the walls, however there are still those of use who knows our chains all to well, for our minds have not yet been made a prison, our minds are still open and our greatest wish is to one day walk into the forbidden land called freedom. the forbidden land scoffed at by those fools who have grown accustomed to their own chains, and would feel lost without them. there is truth in that sentiment though, man and society is not yet ready. those who are ahead of the herd must pay for the others' slowness, but those ahead, are the ones that can be looked to as leaders, and if lead properly, there will no longer be a herd. the direction i believe we must go, is the improvement of technology. for it is technology and automation that increases efficiency and frees man from being a pack mule. technology is the infrastructure for freedom. Technology help made slaves inefficient, technology will make wage work inefficient, we're just not there yet. china, Russia, they were never communist, i believe that a relatively long period of capitalism is necessary for the development of infrastructure that allows for communism or anarchy. societys most developed in their modes of production.This will happen naturally as the demands of the market is that some one gets more for less, and the ones that can sastify the market, with out exhausting themselves, are the ones that get the benfits. technology increases efficency, allowing for better satisfaction of the market. naturally, modes of production will increase, intill eventually, the infrastrucure will be there, and people will take advantage of the infrastrucure and capitilisim will have defeated itself, i believe it is only a matter of time. the west and Europe, will likely naturally be the first classless societies. do my ideas seem to hold water?

[JimmyJazz]

First of all, welcome. You're quite a few years ahead of me--I was still a free-market libertarian when I was in high school.


the direction i believe we must go, is the improvement of technology. for it is technology and automation that increases efficiency and frees man from being a pack mule. technology is the infrastructure for freedom. Technology help made slaves inefficient, technology will make wage work inefficient, we're just not there yet... do my ideas seem to hold water?

Well, I was right there with you up until this point.

Check out this book (http://www.amazon.com/Progress-Without-People-Defense-Luddism/dp/1896357008/ref=cm_lmf_tit_24) and this one (http://www.amazon.com/Labor-Monopoly-Capital-Degradation-Twentieth/dp/0853459401/ref=ed_oe_p). And maybe this one (http://www.amazon.com/Our-Own-Time-American-Haymarket/dp/0860919633/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229663869&sr=1-1) as well.

Technological improvement without class struggle is worthless, and often results in increased oppression and immiseration of the working class. Technological improvement is the method by which we move away from scarcity; class struggle is the method by which we move away from capitalist ownership and exploitation. Without class struggle, no matter how productive technological improvement makes the individual worker, the working class will not share in the wealth that its own labor creates.


Editing to add a quote from the Manifesto:


Owing to the extensive use of machinery, and to the division of labour, the work of the proletarians has lost all individual character, and, consequently, all charm for the workman. He becomes an appendage of the machine, and it is only the most simple, most monotonous, and most easily acquired knack, that is required of him. Hence, the cost of production of a workman is restricted, almost entirely, to the means of subsistence that he requires for maintenance, and for the propagation of his race. But the price of a commodity, and therefore also of labour, is equal to its cost of production. In proportion, therefore, as the repulsiveness of the work increases, the wage decreases. Nay more, in proportion as the use of machinery and division of labour increases, in the same proportion the burden of toil also increases, whether by prolongation of the working hours, by the increase of the work exacted in a given time or by increased speed of machinery, etc.

Obviously it isn't true just because Charlie said it, but I'm making you aware of his view (and hence, to some degree, the traditional leftist view) in case you were curious.

[Drace]

Hey bro :)

Im still in school too.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Out of curiousity, how old are you?

fyi, you're probably ahead of me. I'm seventeen and in my last year of high school and just got interested in the radical left last year. I thank my anti-Communist history teacher for that one. :)

[Q]

Welcome! :)
You seem to be very well educated already, I'm impressed for someone in highschool. I certainly didn't go that far when I was still there.


do my ideas seem to hold water?
Yes, your ideas seem to hold together well. The only point I disagree is the notion that capitalism will eventually defeat itself. I mean, from a grand historical "helicopter view" it is true, just like feudalism and slavery became deprecated. But the switch from capitalism towards communism still needs a revolution in my view: a conscious action in which the working class seizes power from the capitalists. There is no such thing as a "final crisis" under capitalism, unchallenged it will always adapt to new circumstances.

Could you elaborate your views on revolution?

[casper]

thanks for the replies.
i still feel the need to learn, and i believe talking to other people is a good way to gain direction on what to learn, its part of the reason i find this place attractive, even though its just my second day here.

I'm 18, and in my final year of high school.

i can see how technology can be used to oppress people, and how the skills that make some jobs enjoyable can be overtaken by a machine and thus leave the the mind numbing button punching left to do, that has to just suck. however, technology also needs its care takers and its creators. one thing i like to think about technology is its connection to science and what seems to me to be science's inherently anti-authoritarian system. the scientific method demands that things be tested, that they are questioned. also, it gives an ability to look at systems on a whole, including ones own personal life. psychology and sociology has their connections in their methods to science. really the more technology we use, the more education is required. The subjects required are those that have a history of questioning accepted notions.

also A non-monopolizes capitalist market requires constant change in order to be better then the competition. the economy is constantly growing and outdoing itself. To support this growth technology and science must be improved,for technology is one of the main vehicles to be better and more efficient then the competition. As the need for technology increases, so does the need for education, which then increases the general publics ability to see the system and its flaws. I do think that its not happening enough though, to many of my classmates would rather talk about getting drunk then about society and how domesticated we are by power holders or "authority" or anything. I also think theres a lot of myths and propaganda that stops people from even starting to seriously consider some subjects...people become comfortable in their chains. people need to be informed, i also think a lot of people are short sighted from the beginning, and are not honest with themselves, i believe we are conditioned in this society to think in certain patterns, Its not socially acceptable to think out side of those patterns. Thus from an early age due to socialization we learn not to question some things. authority is one of them, look at the Milgram experiment. if one considers this sociaty's commonly accepted thought patterns, and how most rely on "legitimate authorities" in government and families for their beliefs or actions. Then if one looks at the bullshit that has been said to slenderize opposition to the ruling class and other power holder's dominion over things and the fact that the “ruling class” values in a society tend to be the accepted one. Its kinda becomes clear why its hard to start a revolution. Its because people are mentally restricted into thinking in accepted patterns. Challenging tradition and the ways things always have been isn't an accepted pattern. But I believe extensive education in science, history, language, math, almost anything, can help break those chains. A good study of astronomy will allow someone to see that a lot of people we're incorrect, including an institution that held a lot of power( the church) the planets go around the sun, not the earth. The belief in a geocentric universe was a belief that was conquered by evidence that was always there, just waiting for the means and the men to notice the evidence. The same may happen with economical and political systems. Slowly, gradually, possible better systems will be noticed by those who can see their own oppression, because they we're educated extensively in something that taught them to think outside of the box, outside of what may be considered “intuitive” and outside of what is considered accepted thought patterns by more ignorant peers and authorities. Could the free and open software movements be a testament to this? Programmers are generally well educated people, and they seem to me to embody some of the same ideals that a classless society would put into more extensive use. Technology also allows for places like this place, where independent youth can learn and grow and find ways to change and accelerate growth of systems they find undesirable, by connecting with older more experienced people, as well as other youth. I'm lucky, i know two other "communist" at my school, and a good friend of mine is an anarchist. I only recently would consider myself communist though, I used to be trapped in some of the same thought patterns my peers are currently. Then I read more, I was educated in more advance subjects and found myself in college prep, advance placement and now even a college course. As my education improved, so did my ability to satisfy my inquisitive nature on why my life sucked, because I learned thought patterns that allowed me to question what most never question. I now see the broken system we live in, and the prisons we call our minds.


I blame my ideology and beliefs on my white, suburban education and the introverted introspective isolated personality i was as a kid( although I'm more talkative and outgoing now). perhaps I'm a special case, but education in physics changes perspective on everything. Like today I was trying to find out at what speed I would hit the ground if I jumped off the bridge in our two story school, cause if I can work on landing right, it would be a cool senior prank... (not like I need to know the exact speed, just that it won't kill me, which It won't even hurt me if I land right, but its the landing right that i'm worried about) imagine the teachers and girls freaking, I can imagine their faces now, and yes they couldn't miss it, the teachers stand around like their freakin prison guards.

[Raúl Duke]

Welcome

[JimmyJazz]

technology = good

wage labor = bad

technology in class society = neutral, can be used either way


It's like debating the merits of a strong military when you live in a military dictatorship. Of course there are merits to a strong military; but not presently.

[casper]

thanks, i like some of your quotes.

thats a great thought: "the greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance. it is the illsuion of knowledge"-steven hawkings.

[Dóchas]

thanks, i like some of your quotes.

thats a great thought: "the greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance. it is the illsuion of knowledge"-steven hawkings.

im stealing that one :thumbup1:

[casper]

i've been reading on infoshop.org http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secA2.html i think i may identify more as a anarchist. i know i stand on the left, and i know i'm right :D