After the workers' revolution...

[Uncle Al]

What would happen after the Proletariat took power, to members of the middle class who might happen to sympathise with the socialist cause (and who might even call themselves 'socialist')? I.e. those who believe in redistribution of wealth, say, who have always voted left-wing, but who - by virtue of their birth, or something - have not actually been forced under capitalism to sell their labour to live?

[Invincible Summer]

The "middle class" doesn't really exist; it's just a term created by the ruling classes to create the illusion that one can "move up" in society.

The only people who haven't sold their labour to capitalists are the capitalists.

So I guess to answer your question: Nothing special or different than anyone else.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Makes sense. Even the "middle class" is oppressed by the ruling class. I'm sure anybody who is oppressed would feel Socialism is a decent alternative. Maybe they don't believe that now, but they may become more convinced after a revolution.

[#FF0000]

Er, nothing would happen to them, unless they took action to try to bring capitalism and class society back.

[Q]

The middle class, defined as those who posses their own means of production but don't have employees (small farmers, one man shops, etc), could just continue to do their stuff after the revolution. Although I can see that with a planned economy they'd soon become extinct.

[Uncle Al]

It just seems that many socialists nowadays are members of the so-called 'middle class' - they are educated, higher-income earners, who can read Marx or Proudhon or whoever, understand it and then debate and argue the issues. Is a member of the working class really going to read Das Kapital and understand it?

[lombas]

To answer your first question: if a son or daughter of a wealthy capitalist sympathises with the working class and the party of the people, he might even become an important figure in a socialist state. First of all, however, these people will have to start working.

Furthermore, I agree with destructicon500 that "the middle class" doesn't exist. There is, of course, petty bourgeoise, but even in this stage of "evolved welfare capitalism" this is a very small minority. Most people belong to the proletariat (ie: have to sell their labour).

I could agree, however, that "middle class" is a term that suits modern society because it helps clearing the fact that real labourers (Arbeiter) are also a minority in the Western hemisphere.


Is a member of the working class really going to read Das Kapital and understand it?

The problem is: most people belong to the working class, and yes: as most members of socialist parties and organizations are working class, ergo, they are able to read it.

In countries with very poor education the priority of any socialist society would then be to provide people with such an education that they are able to understand (not: be forced to understand) socialism and socialist policies.

[Revolutionary-Socialist]

What would happen after the Proletariat took power, to members of the middle class who might happen to sympathise with the socialist cause (and who might even call themselves 'socialist')? I.e. those who believe in redistribution of wealth, say, who have always voted left-wing, but who - by virtue of their birth, or something - have not actually been forced under capitalism to sell their labour to live?

They would be assimilated in the new social order. When the social relations change as a result of the social revolution it will automatically draw in everyone who lives under the new social system. That includes all members of the former middle class or upper middle class. Being determines consciousness after all and their material being will be changed. It might take some time before it will change sufficiently but after a few generations it will taken hold completely.

[Q]

It just seems that many socialists nowadays are members of the so-called 'middle class' - they are educated, higher-income earners, who can read Marx or Proudhon or whoever, understand it and then debate and argue the issues. Is a member of the working class really going to read Das Kapital and understand it?

This is not a feature of the present time. Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Kropotkin and others all had a non-proletarian background. Is that bad? No, because they broke with their initial class background and defended a workers position.

[revolution inaction]

It just seems that many socialists nowadays are members of the so-called 'middle class' - they are educated, higher-income earners, who can read Marx or Proudhon or whoever, understand it and then debate and argue the issues. Is a member of the working class really going to read Das Kapital and understand it?

If your income comes from selling your labor for a wage you are working class

[LOLseph Stalin]

In countries with very poor education the priority of any socialist society would then be to provide people with such an education that they are able to understand (not: be forced to understand) socialism and socialist policies.

Isn't that where we come in? Aren't we supposed to educate the masses?


This is not a feature of the present time. Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Kropotkin and others all had a non-proletarian background. Is that bad? No, because they broke with their initial class background and defended a workers position.

Yay them! :D Working class heros...

[ernie]

It just seems that many socialists nowadays are members of the so-called 'middle class' - they are educated, higher-income earners, who can read Marx or Proudhon or whoever, understand it and then debate and argue the issues. Is a member of the working class really going to read Das Kapital and understand it?
Yes, they are. There are plenty of very knowledgeable working-class Marxists on this board. Thanks to the internet, this will happen more and more.

If, as you imply, the workers are too dumb to learn for themselves, then we can start forgetting all about communism...

As Marx said, the emancipation of the working class must be the act of the workers themselves!

[Incendiarism]

It just seems that many socialists nowadays are members of the so-called 'middle class' - they are educated, higher-income earners, who can read Marx or Proudhon or whoever, understand it and then debate and argue the issues. Is a member of the working class really going to read Das Kapital and understand it?

I'm from a very poor background and am a communist, and there are innumerable examples of actual workers rallying behind the red banner(or red and black). They may not have been theoreticians or anything of the sort, but that does not detract from what they did.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Well I guess I could consider myself middle class because of my dad. My mom is poor though.

[Uncle Al]

But surely the 'working class' aren't really interested in this stuff? They'd rather watch The X Factor, read The Sun, be casually racist/sexist/homophobic etc. Do you really expect someone from this background to be able to argue and defend the concept of surplus value, alienation or historical materialism, or to want to help out their fellow workers and dedicate themselves to the socialist ideal? What are we supposed to do if the working class aren't interested in self-emancipation and aren't at all grateful for anything socialists do for them (in fact, in many cases, quite the opposite)? Make them care? I suppose the argument is that sooner or later material conditions will force them to become self-aware as a class, but it's a poor show, surely, if it takes their livelihoods to be directly threatened before they rediscover the concept of universal brotherhood. Apologies for being blunt, comrades, but it bothers me - surely capitalism is weaker now than it has been for a long time, and yet the revolution has never seemed more remote.

[Uncle Al]

If your income comes from selling your labor for a wage you are working class
But what about a member of the conventional 'middle class' who works in a high-paying job (which is still their sole income), who has a house, big TV, big car etc. - they're not going to be interested in socialism either, are they? Their lives are already more than comfortable: do they give a damn about those worse off? Do they really need emancipating?