Why should we do anything?

[Thunder]

Hello.

Before I say anything else, I just want to say that if I sound naive, please forgive me as I'm still very much a novice of philosophy. Now to the point.

I often hear altruistic people say, "You should help others", but I often wonder, "Why"? Why should we help others? Because we want them to help us back? That does not sound too altruistic to do something ultimately because you'll benefit, and why should we care what happens to us anyway? Why should we care if we die?

Is it simply just because we don't want to die that we do things that we believe that helps us? Why should we follow the urge of not dieing?

[Drace]

This is basically why I am a nihilist. There is no reason to justify these things other then that of what your brain thinks, but no real logical reason.

If the whole world blew up, you wouldn't have a brain to think "Oh no!". The event would be nothing more then its visual view.

Although, you should do something because it produces a good feeling.

[black magick hustla]

the only way to be a nihilist is probably being dead or a vegetable. you believe in your own judgements otherwise you wouldnt be able to even move

[Apeiron]

This is basically why I am a nihilist. There is no reason to justify these things other then that of what your brain thinks, but no real logical reason.

If the whole world blew up, you wouldn't have a brain to think "Oh no!". The event would be nothing more then its visual view.

Although, you should do something because it produces a good feeling. If you are a nihilist, why do you even post here? How are you leftist?

[Thunder]

If you are a nihilist, why do you even post here? How are you leftist?
Just what I was wondering.

[Post-Something]

This is basically why I am a nihilist. There is no reason to justify these things other then that of what your brain thinks, but no real logical reason.

If the whole world blew up, you wouldn't have a brain to think "Oh no!". The event would be nothing more then its visual view.

Although, you should do something because it produces a good feeling.

God I hate Nihilism...existentialism for the win.



I often hear altruistic people say, "You should help others", but I often wonder, "Why"? Why should we help others? Because we want them to help us back? That does not sound too altruistic to do something ultimately because you'll benefit, and why should we care what happens to us anyway? Why should we care if we die?

Is it simply just because we don't want to die that we do things that we believe that helps us? Why should we follow the urge of not dieing?

Humans are social animals. They need others to live, they need others to guage their actions against. This is a very complex issue, which could take a long time to explain, so it's probably best if I just point you in a general direction:

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/sartre/works/exist/sartre.htm

That link above is a very good piece by Sartre which should explain the basics. Basically, "man is nothing but what he makes of himself", and action is the source of meaning.

[S. Zetor]

There's no "objective" answer to Thunder's question. Sometimes people have to make their own decisions, instead of trying to find some external justification :-)

There's no "objective formula" for why to do anything. It's a moral choice.

Once you've made the choice to do something, Marxism may then offer tools for reasoning what it is exactly that you could to do. Whether it's Marxism, or any other ism (racism, fascism etc.) is kind of up to you.. what is it that you find convincing for the aims that you've set for yourself.

[ckaihatsu]

Let's put this through the decision tree:

If you really didn't want to live you wouldn't be here right now.

Since you're here, you have time on your hands for the foreseeable future. With that time you can work -- either for pay or on a voluntary or hobbyist basis, or you can enjoy the time as leisure, with certain material constraints. Lastly you may have some sort of larger managerial or political responsibilities which make demands on your time, but many people don't.

Did I miss anything?


Chris






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[Decolonize The Left]

Hello.

Before I say anything else, I just want to say that if I sound naive, please forgive me as I'm still very much a novice of philosophy. Now to the point.

Welcome and thanks for posting your question - there's nothing wrong with naivety (only willful naivety). I will attempt to answer your questions one at a time.


I often hear altruistic people say, "You should help others", but I often wonder, "Why"? Why should we help others?

Why should you help others? Because there is good reason to do so.

You do not exist in a vacuum, void of all interaction, etc... For if you did, you wouldn't be you! Quite the contrary, you exist and continue to exist, largely due to the work of other individuals. The internet which we are using now was created, and is maintained, by individuals. The food you eat, the water you drink, the electricity you use, etc... etc.. etc. All due to other people. They help you exist, do they not?

Please note that "altruism" is "unselfish regard for or devotion to others." (Merriam-Webster) I am not talking about altruism, merely about reality.

So why should you help them? Ideally, because you want to. Why would you want to? Because they help you. And how is this to be done? Through the spreading of class consciousness.


Because we want them to help us back? That does not sound too altruistic to do something ultimately because you'll benefit, and why should we care what happens to us anyway? Why should we care if we die?

Death is nothing to be feared. We should not care about death, or 'what happens to us,' at all. What we should care about is what happens to humanity.

- August

[Thunder]

Thank you for your good response, but my question wasn't about altruism. I just used that as an example.
My questions is: Why do anything at all? Like, "Why should or shouldnt I be selfish?
"Why should or shouldn't I kill myself?" "How does anyone deserve anything even if they help me?"
I just find everything to be ultimately baseless and built upon assumptions.

[Thunder]

After taking brief looks at both of them, I suppose that the two conclusions that I am coming to is nihilism and philosophical skepticism statement of "Nothing can be known, not even this."

[Drace]

If you are a nihilist, why do you even post here? How are you leftist?

I developed my own ideas and came to call them nihilism and Isuppose my term of 'nihilism' is quite off.

What is wrong with being a nihilist leftist?

[Post-Something]

Thank you for your good response, but my question wasn't about altruism. I just used that as an example.
My questions is: Why do anything at all? Like, "Why should or shouldnt I be selfish?
"Why should or shouldn't I kill myself?" "How does anyone deserve anything even if they help me?"
I just find everything to be ultimately baseless and built upon assumptions.

Because you have a basic instinct to survive. Try denying it, it just won't work. You flat out don't want to die.

However, the rest of your question, can be looked at from a lot of different perspectives. Are you asking from a moral perspective? Or are you questioning the meaning of existence? Or are you getting at something entirely different?

If it is one of morality, then you do what is beneficial. It's beneficial for you not to kill because you wouldn't like to be killed. You've placed meaning on life because all of your experience so far has been from the perspective of a living being. It's beneficial for you to help somebody because they might help you again in the future, and you want to prove to them that you are in fact, worthy of their help.

As for why do anything at all to others, and why they deserve things. Well, it's arguable that you are in debt to mankind. They provide you with a world to live in, it's only fair that you do your share.

AugustWest knows a lot more about this, he could probably explain everything that you wanted to know, but I would recommend that you have a look at that link I posted earlier.

[Post-Something]

I developed my own ideas and came to call them nihilism and Isuppose my term of 'nihilism' is quite off.

What is wrong with being a nihilist leftist?

Probably because exploitation and all the other ails of society would be a-ok if they were devoid of meaning. What is the point of building for a communist society if it doesn't mean anything anyway?

[Wild_Fire]

Hello.

Before I say anything else, I just want to say that if I sound naive, please forgive me as I'm still very much a novice of philosophy. Now to the point.

I often hear altruistic people say, "You should help others", but I often wonder, "Why"? Why should we help others? Because we want them to help us back? That does not sound too altruistic to do something ultimately because you'll benefit, and why should we care what happens to us anyway? Why should we care if we die?

Is it simply just because we don't want to die that we do things that we believe that helps us? Why should we follow the urge of not dieing?

Personally, I think that you often make the choice to help others based on your perception of them and what it is exactly that they are doing.

If I wonder why I should help others, I think that a good idea is to think if whether or not they can do it for themselves. If they can't and you can then it would make more sense to help.

If I follow your actual question however, I would argue that there are tendencies in human nature to both work together and work for oneself. So really there is no real reason why you 'should' help someone, but religious types stress this helping as a virtue, because earlier life was so harsh.

[Thunder]

They provide you with a world to live in, it's only fair that you do your share.


So? How do I owe anyone anything? Even if they do only good to me, how do I become debted to them? Which thing causes me to be in debt to them?

Sorry yall if I sound like a rambling idiot.
I'm just asking a big "why?" to everything.

[Post-Something]

So? How do I owe anyone anything? Even if they do only good to me, how do I become debted to them? Which thing causes me to be in debt to them?

Well, what are you doing right now? You're on the internet.

Made by others.

What else? Most likely sitting on a chair or something?

Made by others.

And when you get hungry? You'll get some food?

Made by others.

And when you have digested it? You go to the bathroom?

Made by others.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. Simply by enhancing your existence, you are arguably signing some sort of contract between yourself and the rest of society. Everything else, like your exchanges and agreements with individuals is simply a more complex version of this. Therefore, since humanity has provided you with ways in which to enhance your own existence, something which you intrinsically want to do, it is then only fair that you wish the same upon the rest of society.

Make sense?

[Wild_Fire]

Well, what are you doing right now? You're on the internet.

Made by others.

What else? Most likely sitting on a chair or something?

Made by others.

And when you get hungry? You'll get some food?

Made by others.

And when you have digested it? You go to the bathroom?

Made by others.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. Simply by enhancing your existence, you are arguably signing some sort of contract between yourself and the rest of society. Everything else, like your exchanges and agreements with individuals is simply a more complex version of this. Therefore, since humanity has provided you with ways in which to enhance your own existence, something which you intrinsically want to do, it is then only fair that you wish the same upon the rest of society.

Make sense?

Perfect sense. Well put.

[Post-Something]

Thanks :).

[benhur]

Hello.

Before I say anything else, I just want to say that if I sound naive, please forgive me as I'm still very much a novice of philosophy. Now to the point.

I often hear altruistic people say, "You should help others", but I often wonder, "Why"? Why should we help others? Because we want them to help us back? That does not sound too altruistic to do something ultimately because you'll benefit, and why should we care what happens to us anyway? Why should we care if we die?

Is it simply just because we don't want to die that we do things that we believe that helps us? Why should we follow the urge of not dieing?

The problem is, 'why' questions are irrelevant and confusing, because everything is a random occurrence. There may be no such thing as cause and effect the way we understand.

[Decolonize The Left]

Thank you for your good response, but my question wasn't about altruism. I just used that as an example.
My questions is: Why do anything at all? Like, "Why should or shouldnt I be selfish?
"Why should or shouldn't I kill myself?" "How does anyone deserve anything even if they help me?"
I just find everything to be ultimately baseless and built upon assumptions.


After taking brief looks at both of them, I suppose that the two conclusions that I am coming to is nihilism and philosophical skepticism statement of "Nothing can be known, not even this."


So? How do I owe anyone anything? Even if they do only good to me, how do I become debted to them? Which thing causes me to be in debt to them?

Sorry yall if I sound like a rambling idiot.
I'm just asking a big "why?" to everything.

You are not a rambling idiot, at least I cannot conclude that based off this thread. You are asking very basic, and deeply-rooted, existential questions.

I could rationalize a series of arguments as to 'why' you ought to do X, or whatever, but let's leave that for later.

Let's try this:
Forget everything about 'owing' anybody anything.
You want to know why you should do something, X, or Y, or Z. Correct?
You want to know why, what reasoning there is, to do something.
Furthermore, you believe that all reasoning provided for X, Y, or Z, is baseless and rooted in assumptions. In other words, you believe that all morality is relative and subjective.

I ask you this: why do you ask others what you should do? Are you not capable of willing yourself? Is your life my decision? Is your life mine to operate as though I move a machine?

You want to know why you should do something? I want to know why you're asking.

- August

[Drace]

Probably because exploitation and all the other ails of society would be a-ok if they were devoid of meaning. What is the point of building for a communist society if it doesn't mean anything anyway?

I tried to put the answer to this one one crappy sentence. In the ultimate sense, there is no morals. This cannot be discarded unless we get a dirty involved.

As a human, I have feelings and am a slave of them. I could not deny what I think. So yes, a nihilist does not exist. But I chose to define it as someone who believes in its ideals, rather then one who has a nihilist lifestyle.

And the opposite would apply in your argument. Why should I care about not caring? =D there simply is no logical argument behind such reasoning.

[Decolonize The Left]

I tried to put the answer to this one one crappy sentence. In the ultimate sense, there is no morals. This cannot be discarded unless we get a dirty involved.

As a human, I have feelings and am a slave of them. I could not deny what I think. So yes, a nihilist does not exist. But I chose to define it as someone who believes in its ideals, rather then one who has a nihilist lifestyle.

And the opposite would apply in your argument. Why should I care about not caring? =D there simply is no logical argument behind such reasoning.

This makes absolutely no sense. Please re-post a clear, grammatically correct, statement of what you are trying to say.

- August

[Post-Something]

I tried to put the answer to this one one crappy sentence. In the ultimate sense, there is no morals. This cannot be discarded unless we get a dirty involved.

As a human, I have feelings and am a slave of them. I could not deny what I think. So yes, a nihilist does not exist. But I chose to define it as someone who believes in its ideals, rather then one who has a nihilist lifestyle.

And the opposite would apply in your argument. Why should I care about not caring? =D there simply is no logical argument behind such reasoning.

So you're acting on emotion? That's what it all boils down to? Let alone all the rationality of implementing an economic system based on needs, let's leave all the communist rhetoric aside; what is the point of any change whatsoever while believing in Nihilistic ideals?

With Existentialism, you are compelled to act, albeit it being stressful, so as to define yourself. But with Nihilism, there is no justification for anything. All value is lost, and life has no meaning whatsoever. There is no point in doing anything, so don't bother acting on your feelings.

Wait, do you see what happened there?

According to your ideals, you wouldn't act upon your feelings. But you do. You must have attributed some form of meaning to you feelings and actions to warrant carrying them through. By simply acting upon a feeling, by coming on this website about the far left, you have attributed some meaning to those emotions you harbour.

[Decolonize The Left]

So you're acting on emotion? That's what it all boils down to? Let alone all the rationality of implementing an economic system based on needs, let's leave all the communist rhetoric aside; what is the point of any change whatsoever while believing in Nihilistic ideals?

With Existentialism, you are compelled to act, albeit it being stressful, so as to define yourself. But with Nihilism, there is no justification for anything. All value is lost, and life has no meaning whatsoever. There is no point in doing anything, so don't bother acting on your feelings.

Wait, do you see what happened there?

According to your ideals, you wouldn't act upon your feelings. But you do. You must have attributed some form of meaning to you feelings and actions to warrant carrying them through. By simply acting upon a feeling, by coming on this website about the far left, you have attributed some meaning to those emotions you harbour.

Drace has already attributed meaning and value to many things merely by using language.

This is why nihilism collapses under its own weight. To be a true nihilist is to not communicate at all, to will nothing - it is to cease to be human.

- August

[Post-Something]

Drace has already attributed meaning and value to many things merely by using language.

This is why nihilism collapses under its own weight. To be a true nihilist is to not communicate at all, to will nothing - it is to cease to be human.

- August

This completely is true. Unfortunately for you Drace, the only place your Nihilism has ever existed is here:

http://filmplus.org/04/ran.jpg

:lol::lol::lol:

[Thunder]

You are not a rambling idiot, at least I cannot conclude that based off this thread. You are asking very basic, and deeply-rooted, existential questions.

I could rationalize a series of arguments as to 'why' you ought to do X, or whatever, but let's leave that for later.

Let's try this:
Forget everything about 'owing' anybody anything.
You want to know why you should do something, X, or Y, or Z. Correct? Yes

You want to know why, what reasoning there is, to do something.
Furthermore, you believe that all reasoning provided for X, Y, or Z, is baseless and rooted in assumptions. In other words, you believe that all morality is relative and subjective.
That seems to be about right

I ask you this: why do you ask others what you should do? Are you not capable of willing yourself? Is your life my decision? Is your life mine to operate as though I move a machine?

You want to know why you should do something? I want to know why you're asking.

- August
I was asking to get a variety of opinions to compare with mine to see which one is the most reasonable/right.

I just see many things built upon things which are built upon assumptions, as you said. Like the assumption that we should live.
I am not saying that we shouldn't live. I am just trying to see if there truly is a base to anything.

[Decolonize The Left]

I just see many things built upon things which are built upon assumptions, as you said. Like the assumption that we should live.
I am not saying that we shouldn't live. I am just trying to see if there truly is a base to anything.

Consider this:
All human beings are individuals. We, as individuals, work together and cooperate to form a coherent picture/understanding/description/representation of our existential situation as a species. This picture comes in the rational form of science, mathematics, (some) philosophy, anthropology, etc... It also comes in irrational forms such as religion.

You're asking if there's "a base" to these pictures? Other than reality? What base are you looking for?

- August

[AIM Correspondent]

This makes absolutely no sense. Please re-post a clear, grammatically correct, statement of what you are trying to say

I think this should be a forum rule :cool:

By the way, i think you are right

[benhur]

Drace has already attributed meaning and value to many things merely by using language.

This is why nihilism collapses under its own weight. To be a true nihilist is to not communicate at all, to will nothing - it is to cease to be human.

- August

What does being a true nihilist have to do with not communicating, or doing nothing?:confused:

[ls]

Hello.

Before I say anything else, I just want to say that if I sound naive, please forgive me as I'm still very much a novice of philosophy. Now to the point.

I often hear altruistic people say, "You should help others", but I often wonder, "Why"? Why should we help others? Because we want them to help us back? That does not sound too altruistic to do something ultimately because you'll benefit, and why should we care what happens to us anyway? Why should we care if we die?

Is it simply just because we don't want to die that we do things that we believe that helps us? Why should we follow the urge of not dieing?

All good questions and I see that some of them are largely considered to be at the root(s) of anarchism.

Does anarchism not state that compassion is a good thing? I wonder if you include this as part of anarchism: http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/compassion
sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it


After taking brief looks at both of them, I suppose that the two conclusions that I am coming to is nihilism and philosophical skepticism statement of "Nothing can be known, not even this."
..
I am not saying that we shouldn't live. I am just trying to see if there truly is a base to anything.


If you came to nihilism, truly, at those links, you would have said you don't care whether or not you live in your final sentence.

Nothing can be known, but that is no reason to be a nihilist; it may even drive people to try and affirm their beliefs and knowledge harder.

[Decolonize The Left]

What does being a true nihilist have to do with not communicating, or doing nothing?:confused:

Nihilism is the belief that the world, universe, and human life is inherently meaningless. If everything is meaningless, including one's life, then one cannot speak for to speak is to imbue sounds with meaning. To 'do something' is to do so with purpose, in other words, with meaning.

Nihilism is simply self-negating. It is absolutely pointless and stupid. No one on this forum is actually a nihilist - if they were, they wouldn't be posting on a forum... :rolleyes:

- August

[Cumannach]

Hello.

Before I say anything else, I just want to say that if I sound naive, please forgive me as I'm still very much a novice of philosophy. Now to the point.

I often hear altruistic people say, "You should help others", but I often wonder, "Why"? Why should we help others? Because we want them to help us back? That does not sound too altruistic to do something ultimately because you'll benefit, and why should we care what happens to us anyway? Why should we care if we die?

Is it simply just because we don't want to die that we do things that we believe that helps us? Why should we follow the urge of not dieing?

I don't know. How about some sociobiology;

Altruism is a product of natural selection.

If two individual members of a species help each other survive, they both have a better chance of survival and of reproduction than individuals who do not engage in helping each other. Therefore, via natural selection, the genes that promote altruistic behaviour are selected, and altruism becomes part of the nature of that species.

The same applies to humans.

[MarxSchmarx]

What does being a true nihilist have to do with not communicating, or doing nothing?http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/confused1.gif
Nihilism is the belief that the world, universe, and human life is inherently meaningless. If everything is meaningless, including one's life, then one cannot speak for to speak is to imbue sounds with meaning. To 'do something' is to do so with purpose, in other words, with meaning.


Ah, yes, but this is to confuse the semantics of the phrase "meaning". One "meaning of meaning" is that "meaning" is inherently teleological. On this, the nihilists have a valid point - there is no "ultimate goal" to which we all strive.

Another "meaning of meaning" is that words, symbols, and the like, are convenient proxies for mental images that fit into a broader schematic. In the latter sense, one is justified in using words, even if one is a nihilist. I propose that any critique of nihilism should be based on the former sense of "meaning", rather than the latter.



Nihilism is simply self-negating. It is absolutely pointless and stupid. No one on this forum is actually a nihilist - if they were, they wouldn't be posting on a forum... :rolleyes:


I agree with the thrust of your argument. The real contradiction in nihilism is that, as an ideology that asserts epistemological uncertainty, it seems awfully confident in its fundamental truth :rolleyes:

[gilhyle]

What is interesting about this thread is how many people think you are not subject to any obligation to do anything and are not disturbed by that....rightly not disturbed in my view.

What is perverse is nihilism - understood as the irrational preoccupation with the fact that we are not obliged to do anything.

Just get over it. Being alive, you will do things. You are not obliged, but you will. Recognise that and nihilism is seen for the petulance in the face of a world without moral authority which it is.

[Ephydriad]

Why should we do anything? To be happy, and to help others be happy, because when the sun crashes into the Earth and everything we've ever done has been wiped from existence, in the end it doesn't matter WHAT you accomplished. So you should strive to just enjoy what time you've got since it's pointless anyway.

I do, however, take Emerson's view of "altruism": helping people because someone told you to strips it of any meaning. Don't do things because you feel that you "have to". Do things because you feel personally motivated to do it based on your own moral code, not the code of someone else.

[Relnicht]

i guess this is one of those things you have to figure out for yourself. the only thing i can help you with, is telling you that you already know that helping people makes you feel good.
evolution did this, and evolution will always be right.

[Thunder]

Wow, it's been a while since I've been here.
I think what I was trying to ask at the time was something on the lines of "Where does meaning come from?"
Though I'm not yet able to write a full out paper on it yet ( :') ) I've come to the conclusion that I should live because I want to. Lol, I know it was what many of yall were trying to pound into me.

[ScarletShadow]

Why should we do anything?
Since there is no answer set in stone, we need simply but to make up something from nothing, a lie, if you will. For what is the difference between truth and lies, if one thinks the latter to be the former?
:kitten:

[benhur]

Nihilism is the belief that the world, universe, and human life is inherently meaningless.

- August

Another meaning of nihilism is that nothing really exists. Then your argument wouldn't really work.

[Black Sheep]

Originally Posted by Thunder http://www.revleft.com/vb/../images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../showthread.php?p=1308848#post1308848)
I often hear altruistic people say, "You should help others", but I often wonder, "Why"? Why should we help others? Because we want them to help us back? That does not sound too altruistic to do something ultimately because you'll benefit, and why should we care what happens to us anyway? Why should we care if we die?

Is it simply just because we don't want to die that we do things that we believe that helps us? Why should we follow the urge of not dieing?

These are all very good questions, but are strictly in the domain of philosophy.I mean such deep queries do not and cannot be applied to everyday life ( at least at the current level of technology).What do i mean?

For example:

Why should we follow the urge of not dieing?
Because if you do not you will most probably die.I mean it is a very interesting question, but you will die.Your survival,growth and reproduction depend on your grasp on that instinct,so your curiosity in that matter is far 'inferior' and pointless compared to the death of your brain.

Generally as biological creatures with a pretty good brain, we have to 'cut off' such thoughts from evertday life,because frankly if they were applied we would go extinct.I.e, imagine if the insticnt of survival was not there, if humans thought with a relativistic approach, if everything was subjective, etc

Reality sure is far inferior and pretty dissappointing compare to the potential of thought, but since thought depends on reality, we will have to compromise until techology advances enough, to satisfy our thoughts and imagination.

Damn,did that make any sense?