Why wait?

[MadMoney]

I haven't asked anything in a while but after a discussion with my Hebrew professor about Kibbutzim, I felt compelled to come back and ask a question that has been bothering me the past few days.

Basically, what are you guys waiting for? If the communal life is where it is at, why wait? I know you guys are not fans of Israel, but there are other places you could go. Or you could start your own. And you wouldn't have to fight a revolution and/or re-educate people like me...

I don't mean to be rude about it, I just don't get it.

[danyboy27]

I haven't asked anything in a while but after a discussion with my Hebrew professor about Kibbutzim, I felt compelled to come back and ask a question that has been bothering me the past few days.

Basically, what are you guys waiting for? If the communal life is where it is at, why wait? I know you guys are not fans of Israel, but there are other places you could go. Or you could start your own. And you wouldn't have to fight a revolution and/or re-educate people like me...

I don't mean to be rude about it, I just don't get it.

beccause for most of us its really important to put the head of the monopoly guy on a pole to live in harmony.

[cop an Attitude]

because class issues, opression, poverty, imperailism, racism, nationalism, war, bourgeois rule, ect. would still exist. Most on the left are doing it for the good of humanity, not for personal comfort.

[PigmerikanMao]

Comrade Sabbath is right- I couldn't care less of what becomes of the monopoly man, but human conditions must improve. Socialism has done this in the past and continues to do so, even in the 21st century.

[RGacky3]

Thats like saying "if you don't like slavery, just move somewhere where theres no slavery."

[Bud Struggle]

Because there isn't any Proletariat to revolt.

Everyone thinks they are Bourgeois. That's what the US bailout is all about--all those Proles thought they were Bourgeoise buying big houses they couldn't afford and plasma TV's on credit. And who do you think owns all those BMWs driving down the highway? Proles living the large life of the Bourgeoise--and not realizing they are working class people with no money.

Easy credit makes everyone Bourgeiose. The spoilt kids of Capitalism aren't the kids of the wealthy--they are the kids of the Proletariat. They just don't know who they are. ;):)

It's really pretty funny in a tragic kind of way.

[Sprocket Hole]

^I guess that's where class consciousness comes in.

My idea on this, is I think a international revolution is unlikely these days.. So I live my life the best way I can, and would like to further my beliefs into my living. All's I can do is hope to spark local revolution, and hope others are inspired by the actions. I firmly believe the phrase "agitate and propagate", and where ever my travels may take me I will do so, and gladly take part in any uprising that has to do with such ideologies.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

beccause for most of us its really important to put the head of the monopoly guy on a pole to live in harmony.



Because there isn't any Proletariat to revolt.

Everyone thinks they are Bourgeois. That's what the US bailout is all about--all those Proles thought they were Bourgeoise buying big houses they couldn't afford and plasma TV's on credit. And who do you think owns all those BMWs driving down the highway? Proles living the large life of the Bourgeoise--and not realizing they are working class people with no money.

Easy credit makes everyone Bourgeiose. The spoilt kids of Capitalism aren't the kids of the wealthy--they are the kids of the Proletariat. They just don't know who they are.

It's really pretty funny in a tragic kind of way.

Thank you for both of these posts.

It's something to question. Obviously, with a Primitivist it's a lot more obvious. Unless they're on here to seek advice as to which wilderness is right for them, they really don't get a whole lot of respect.

Leftists generally think that unless the whole of mankind has found salvation, nothing has been accomplished.

[Plagueround]

Leftists generally think that unless the whole of mankind has found salvation, nothing has been accomplished.

The left recognizes progress and discusses the positive changes being made throughout the world every single day. Even browsing around this site and actually reading what people are saying instead of glossing over it with your mind already made up would accomplish that. What we don't see as progress is the continuation of the same tired politics we've had to endure our entire lives being repackaged and sold to us as change, we do not see small concessions that will again be predictably swept away a few years down the road as progress, and we most certainly do not see someone exchanging the lives of innocent civilians in another country for college money as anyone we should take seriously.

To answer the original poster, a thread on the subject is currently being discussed here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/communism-small-scale-t96418/index.html).

[eyedrop]

I haven't asked anything in a while but after a discussion with my Hebrew professor about Kibbutzim, I felt compelled to come back and ask a question that has been bothering me the past few days.

Basically, what are you guys waiting for? If the communal life is where it is at, why wait? I know you guys are not fans of Israel, but there are other places you could go. Or you could start your own. And you wouldn't have to fight a revolution and/or re-educate people like me...

I don't mean to be rude about it, I just don't get it.

In my teens I considered going to a kibbutz for a year or so. Just to get to experience it. (Opted for a backpacking trip instead)

Small communes doesn't really help anything though, what we want is control of our share of the industry, infrastructure and the worlds natural resources, and effectivising it in the same prosess.

If we live in a small commune the same old crooks, and young, still control the industry, infrastructure and the worlds natural resources, and we have to trade with them to get access to it. We have to involve ourself in modern society to get access to the industry, infrastructure and the worlds natural resources and we are at a disadvanteous position both as a small commune and as a worker.

[Plagueround]

Because there isn't any Proletariat to revolt.

Everyone thinks they are Bourgeois. That's what the US bailout is all about--all those Proles thought they were Bourgeoise buying big houses they couldn't afford and plasma TV's on credit. And who do you think owns all those BMWs driving down the highway? Proles living the large life of the Bourgeoise--and not realizing they are working class people with no money.

Easy credit makes everyone Bourgeiose. The spoilt kids of Capitalism aren't the kids of the wealthy--they are the kids of the Proletariat. They just don't know who they are. ;):)

It's really pretty funny in a tragic kind of way.

They are quickly learning.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

The left recognizes progress and discusses the positive changes being made throughout the world every single day.[QUOTE]

Funny, when they come down here they usually just ***** about the horrible world they live in.

[QUOTE]Even browsing around this site and actually reading what people are saying instead of glossing over it with your mind already made up would accomplish that.

I do recognize good ideas. Yet all I'm am allowed to post in response to is the re-hashed bullshit which comes over and over again. Either it's about the evil cappies or about the glorious post-revolutionary world (were God is oulawed and heroin isn't).



What we don't see as progress is the continuation of the same tired politics we've had to endure our entire lives being repackaged and sold to us as change, we do not see small concessions that will again be predictably swept away a few years down the road as progress, and we most certainly do not see

And when have I stated that I want this, predictable, trend to happen?

Of course I don't want this, it's the motherfucking idiots who make up the American electorate which guarantee that. Just because I play along in the games doesn't mean I'm an Obamist, I just think he'd be better than John McCain.

If enough people cared enough in order to start a genuine alternative I agree with, I'd join it. Until then


someone exchanging the lives of innocent civilians in another country for college money as anyone we should take seriously.

First, when I kill someone I'll let you know. I'm going in the fucking navy, there's a better chance I'll be handing out aid then in combat.

The entire system you live in is based on exchanging money for lives.

Do you buy gasoline? Lives have been spent to get those reserves.
Do you live in America? Lives have been spent to get your dwelling.
Do you use a bank? You savings sposor capitalist expansion.
Do you buy foreign manufacturing products? Make sure that the power plant which supplies your computer with power isn't buring coal or damming a river? Pay taxes? Shop a Wal-Mart?

Fuck you and your cushy existence hypocrite. You live in the first fucking world, go start a fucking revolution or knock off the holier-than-thou attitude.

If you aren't prepared to debate the moronic ideas most people on here have, instead opting for a world of coexistence and agreement on the future of the planet, go find Starbucks with WiFi.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

They are quickly learning.

Learning what?

Budgeting?

[synthesis]

Learning what?

Budgeting?

I believe he was referring to consciousness of one's actual relationship to the means of production.

In other words, the bubble is breaking and people are waking up from the "American Dream."

We'll see what happens, I guess.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I believe he was referring to consciousness of one's actual relationship to the means of production.

In other words, the bubble is breaking and people are waking up from the "American Dream."

We'll see what happens, I guess.

More like the bars closed and all that's left is the nasty hangover.

I hate to say this, but I'm from a lower-middle class household, and I've always looked forward to my former classmates who got free new cars from their parents with huge TVs in comically over-sized looking houses going broke. Fuck, I work across from a mall that's all Neiman-Marcus, Dillards, Macys, Saks, and the like, and I can't wait for it to close.

It's like when you see the Basketball players who literally partied away every dime and are bankrupt. Fucking dumbasses.

But yes, we'll see.

[Plagueround]

First, when I kill someone I'll let you know. I'm going in the fucking navy, there's a better chance I'll be handing out aid then in combat.

If you are in the navy, you are killing people.


The entire system you live in is based on exchanging money for lives.

Do you buy gasoline? Lives have been spent to get those reserves.
Do you live in America? Lives have been spent to get your dwelling.
Do you use a bank? You savings sposor capitalist expansion.
Do you buy foreign manufacturing products? Make sure that the power plant which supplies your computer with power isn't buring coal or damming a river? Pay taxes? Shop a Wal-Mart?Do I do those things out of absolute necessity and strive and fight for something better, or do I sit back and appreciate it all in the name of some delusional misguided pragmatism and openly brag about the fat cash I'll be making once I start warmongering? I could give a fuck what part of the military you become part of, you're still a willing participant, and what's more is you're happy about it. You know, I was thinking when you recognized the difference between primmies and us that perhaps you were starting to get it, but you've just proven to be as fucking stupid as ever. I have to participate or be doomed to primitivism or death.


Fuck you and your cushy existence hypocrite.I work 45-50 hours a week to keep my family clothed, feed, and sheltered. The best part about that is I jumped through all the fucking cappie bullshit hoops about doing anything you could to go to school and get a degree. I have a tiny, tiny chance that I'll be getting a much better job where I'll be one of three responsible for the IT administration of an Indian Health Service clinic (you know helping people and providing them with a better life...), but until then, the one small perk about my job is occasionally all I have to do is man the fort and I am afforded the luxury of browsing the internet. In what little spare time I have in between all that, I work on trying to find like minded people in this town to work on some sort of activism...something that I'm sad to say has not been successful yet. So no, fuck you.


You live in the first fucking world, go start a fucking revolution or knock off the holier-than-thou attitude.Yeah, that would be fucking smart. Abandon my child and wife so I can go start something that it obviously isn't the right time for, get killed, and end up being ridiculed by self righteous godsucking dumbshit functionalists like yourself. I'm sure you would like that seeing as you have yet to comprehend anything at all regarding what we are about.


If you aren't prepared to debate the moronic ideas most people on here have,Is this you admitting your ideas are moronic? Glad to hear it.


instead opting for a world of coexistence and agreement on the future of the planet, go find Starbucks with WiFi.What in the fuck does that even mean?

[Bud Struggle]

I believe he was referring to consciousness of one's actual relationship to the means of production. Yea, there's a plan. :rolleyes::lol:


In other words, the bubble is breaking and people are waking up from the "American Dream."But you and for that matter a good chunk of the American people are mistaken about what the American Dream really is. It's not getting a "whole lotta stuff"--it's the chance, if you work hard and work smart and with a little bit of luck to make a success out of yourself--that's the American Dream--and it's still very much alive today.


We'll see what happens, I guess.Much of the same, much of the same.

[synthesis]

But you and for that matter a good chunk of the American people are mistaken about what the American Dream really is. It's not getting a "whole lotta stuff"--it's the chance, if you work hard and work smart and with a little bit of luck to make a success out of yourself--that's the American Dream--and it's still very much alive today.

People think they are working hard and working smart. And yet they're still in debt, even the ones who aren't buying a bunch of pointless shit on credit.

Look, even if everyone worked hard and worked smart, in capitalism many people's lives would still have to be relegated to doing the shitty work because it just needs to get done. Unfortunately, the "luck" factor is a little more important than you'd like to think.

I think the vast majority of people, if presented with the option, would prefer that everyone pitch in for a little bit of the "shitty work" for, say, a few hours out of every month. That way, it gets done and people have the rest of their time to express themselves as human beings and not just as "janitors," "garbagemen," and "textile workers."

[Killfacer]

Because i don't want to live on a stinking farm in the middle of nowhere with out access to modern technology.

[synthesis]

Because i don't want to live on a stinking farm in the middle of nowhere with out access to modern technology.

What makes you think communist agriculture wouldn't make use of modern technology?

[Killfacer]

What makes you think communist agriculture wouldn't make use of modern technology?

Nothing, but by the sounds of it he is wondering why we don't just leave where we are now and go and set something up. It would be pretty difficult to get an adequate quality of life if you did this.

[synthesis]

Nothing, but by the sounds of it he is wondering why we don't just leave where we are now and go and set something up. It would be pretty difficult to get an adequate quality of life if you did this.

My mistake - I thought your post was in response to mine.

[Forward Union]

I haven't asked anything in a while but after a discussion with my Hebrew professor about Kibbutzim, I felt compelled to come back and ask a question that has been bothering me the past few days.

Basically, what are you guys waiting for? If the communal life is where it is at, why wait? I know you guys are not fans of Israel, but there are other places you could go. Or you could start your own. And you wouldn't have to fight a revolution and/or re-educate people like me...

I don't mean to be rude about it, I just don't get it.

We're not waiting, many of us are actively organising every day, inside of capitalism to make our lives better. I don't want to run like a fugitive, leaving my friends, family, job etc.

[MadMoney]

So correct me if I am wrong....


It is more important to change the world to how Communists want it no matter if it doesn't happen, at least not in the near future, than to actually live in a commune. Maybe it is just anarcho-communism that I am thinking of but isn't the goal to remove power from human interaction. It seems that the changes you talk about require some sort of violence. Is this violence acceptable? Is it necessary?

[RGacky3]

but isn't the goal to remove power from human interaction.

Thats it!


It seems that the changes you talk about require some sort of violence. Is this violence acceptable? Is it necessary?

Historically, the violence is almost always innitiated by the powers that be, and that violence is unacceptable, and must be defended against.

[Dr Mindbender]

in answer to the op's questions-


''why don't we just move ut somewhere and live on a commune''

the reason being, even if we did this the world in which we live will still be subject to the rules of the free market and scarcity planning. It isnt practical to simply take land because a- someone probably owns it already, b- we havent the means of production in order to cultivate it and c-if we attempted to seize land the beourgiose controlled police would prevent us from doing so. The cities, the factories, and the production means were all constructed by the workers and they should not shy away from the principle that it is all rightfully theirs

''is violence always necessary''

I don't believe so. Violent revolution is a means to an end, not the ends itself. Violence is only needed in times of violent counter-revolution. We do not need beourgiose blood, only their assets.

[Robert]

Because i don't want to live on a stinking farm in the middle of nowhere

I find that remark odor-ist, place-ist, and elitist. I like it!

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

If you are in the navy, you are killing people.

...


Do I do those things out of absolute necessity and strive and fight for something better, or do I sit back and appreciate it all in the name of some delusional misguided pragmatism and openly brag about the fat cash I'll be making once I start warmongering? I could give a fuck what part of the military you become part of, you're still a willing participant, and what's more is you're happy about it. You know, I was thinking when you recognized the difference between primmies and us that perhaps you were starting to get it, but you've just proven to be as fucking stupid as ever. I have to participate or be doomed to primitivism or death.

First, yes, I am very happy about my compensation. Nobody else offers anything close and if I'm to live in this Capitalist system, I'm going to do what's the best possible for myself. Does that mean I endorse the system, or that I am happy about killing innocents? No, but it does mean I'm willing to participate. We could debate who's in the worse situation right now, I'm not condemning years of my life away to clean weapons because I want to.

Yeah, you're right on the rest.

[PigmerikanMao]

So correct me if I am wrong....


It is more important to change the world to how Communists want it no matter if it doesn't happen, at least not in the near future, than to actually live in a commune. Maybe it is just anarcho-communism that I am thinking of but isn't the goal to remove power from human interaction. It seems that the changes you talk about require some sort of violence. Is this violence acceptable? Is it necessary?

Once I graduate college I hope to live on a commune, that's why I am waiting anyways. Quite frankly, I'd like there to be a free state open to immigration from communists around the world- people who didn't like capitalist systems could just leave and go to the commune- but the powers that be wouldn't allow this.
:(

[PigmerikanMao]

...
He's right you know- all members of the navy kill children to get themselves "off." Even the people cleaning toilets at the barracks who have never seen combat... they collectively kill, you see. :)

[Patchd]

I believe what he meant was that if you join the forces, you join an institution that you know are responsible for the deaths of many, and if you yourself are not directly involved in the killing of others for national capitalist interests, then you are either indirectly involved by being a supportive and active member of that institution, or when your services are required, you are expected to "do your duty".

The forces dehumanise people to the extent where most will blindly take orders from their higher ups, those who do not will be subject to court marshal as a deterrent to others.

[Hiero]

It is more important to change the world to how Communists want it no matter if it doesn't happen, at least not in the near future, than to actually live in a commune. Maybe it is just anarcho-communism that I am thinking of but isn't the goal to remove power from human interaction. It seems that the changes you talk about require some sort of violence. Is this violence acceptable? Is it necessary?

It is more important for Communist to provide organisation for the forces that will change the world.